NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali law

[jimson]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes

Ok, but you did just dismiss the comparison right before using it yourself. Hmmm, I suppose I was referring to the sheer numbers involved. If you can say there is no model for it then there is no model for it. I would also like to note that you made something new a crime so you did put a lot of people on the criminal side of the law which will increase crime. Yes, I admit that if bans were enacted there would be an increase in crime in the US.

True, I had not considered that the new crime of illegal gun possession could be included in gun crime stats. If I can find a breakdown that eliminates that the numbers would likely change.

 

[jimson]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Then why put it in there? At the very least it does say training should be there.

Jeeze, so many unanswerable questions.

It doesn't say "Right of the people after being well trained", or "Right to bear arms in service of the militia." I'm tired, so I think I'll just fall back on the "Right of the People" thing.

 

[tererun]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Jeeze, so many unanswerable questions.

It doesn't say "Right of the people after being well trained", or "Right to bear arms in service of the militia." I'm tired, so I think I'll just fall back on the "Right of the People" thing.

The training i am talking about would actually be fun. It should provide firearm combat simulation. It should sort of be like gun camp.

 

[Jerry]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

According to the NRA chief LaPierre Isreal had problems with school shootings and enacted laws to prevent that action. Yes, it is true isreal seems to have far less school shootings by deranged gunmen, they also have restrictive gun ownership laws. Records from isreal show only a couple of school shootings which mostly fall under terrorism and failed hostage taking. Isreal said the types of shootings the US has do not have the same reasons behind them as Isreali school shootings.

However, Isreal does seem to be safer in the areas of crazies from their own ranks killing their children. Perhaps it is because of their gun laws. First all eople have to apply for the permission to own a gun. that application involves intense screening and training in the use of those firearms. They also have to undergo the training and medical screening every 3 years and there is no guarantee they will get their permit renewed. People have to apply for permits for each weapon they want to purchase, and it is rare a person is permitted to have more than one weapon. People applying for permits have to show a need for the weapon which involves living or working in dangerous areas of conflict in their country. Isreal says they deny about 80 percent of their permit requests. They also require that gun owners to waive their right to confidentiality while owning guns.

maybe the cheif of the NRA is onto something considering Isreal is a place where lots of armed conflict happens, and terrorism is all around them, but yet their schools remain relatively safe to gun violence? Maybe we should start looking at some of their policies like restricting gun ownership to need, forced medical and police screening on every gun purchase, not allowing private sales to circumvent those checks, and removing the confidentiality rights of those who wish to posses guns. If that system helps to protect isreal against random gun violence, then it should certainly protect the US considering we do not have a bunch of countries who violently hate us connected to us like they do.

Is it just a coincidence that a country with the least gun controls also sees some of the most violent episodes of gun violence happen far more often than other countries with stricter gun controls and bannings? Perhaps it is time for the anti-gun restriction people to start quantifying the protections and added safety they supposedly provide with some real numbers because it seems there are real numbers to support the idea that gin banning do drastically reduce the number of violent gun incidents.

Israel also conscripts every able-bodied citizen at 18. Do you want to do that here?

 

[Wiseone]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Yep. Never mind that Constitution, we need to be more like "them". That, of course, is limitted to your selection of what "them" to emulate. China has lower unemployment, a population control program that seems to work with gov't supplied abortion and great border security. Hmm...

I'm being nit picky because I don't disagree with your overall point, but Chinese border security is pretty weak everywhere.

 

[Wiseone]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

I will list the top nations in order of rates of intentional homicide, also showing their rates of private gun ownership, then show the USA by contrast.

Name.... homicide rate per 100,000.... gun ownership rate per 100.

Honduras... 91.6... 6.2
El Salvador... 69.2 ... 5.8
Cote d'Ivoire... 56.9 ... not listed
Jamaica... 52.2 ... 8.1
Venezuela ... 45.1 ... 10.7
Belize ... 41.1 ... 10
Virgin Islands ... 39.2 ... not listed
Guatemala ... 38.5 ... 13.1
skipping down a bit...
Columbia ... 33.4 ... 5.9
South Africa... 31.8 ... 12.7
skipping down some more...
Greenland ... 19.2 ... not listed
Russia ... 10.2 ... 8.9
skipping down some more...
Ukraine.... 5.2 ... 6.6
Cuba... 5.0 ... 4.8

And finally, well over halfway down the list...

USA... 4.2 ... 88.8


Number of guns per capita by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As it turns out, the United States does not have that high of a homicide rate compared to most other countries, and given the amount of privately owned arms we are FAR more peaceable than most on a per-gun-owned basis.

OBVIOUSLY, gun ownership is NOT directly linked to murder rates.

But the point you are trying to make is that its because of our guns that we have such a "low" murder rate as compared to other countries is it not? So you are saying gun ownership is directly linked to murder rates in that more gun ownerships equates to less murder are you not? Did you compare our numbers to those of Western European nations? I think its not really doing much for your argument if you're forced to compare the United States to places like El Salvador and Cote d'Ivoire

 

[jimson]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

The training i am talking about would actually be fun. It should provide firearm combat simulation. It should sort of be like gun camp.

I'd enjoy it for sure.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Actually, if you read amendment 2 it is an area where they clearly define a subset of the people as in a militia. They do not see the need to define such subsets in other rights. The second amendment stands in reference to a militia which has later been interpreted by the courts to mean well trained individuals, yet there is not any real training at all. but if you want to really get all constitutional you should really have to join the state's militia in order to get your rights to own a gun as those rights were necessary for the formation of those militias.

That is if you actually want to debate said issue on those semantic levels.

See the recent SCOTUS Heller decision. Althought the preamble of the 2A mentions the well regulated militia as necessary to the security of a free state, it does not say the right of the militia, but the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. Surely that wording choice was not an accident, perhaps to save the ink of the additional letter, suddenly discovered over 200 years later.

The ten hours of training, often used as a prerequisite (only for the optional concealed carry of a handgun) is hardly equivalent to that training offered to any "well regulated" militia. The infringement part comes into pay when you must not only successfully complete that brief training (curiously not offered by any militia or even the state itself, but a "certified" private organization/individual) but also pay a hefty "application fee" to the state, which does no more backgroound checking than the "free" NICS check done previously to verify that you have not been adjudicated as a dangerous felon or mentally deficient, required to initially purchase your handgun from a FFL.

So there is a curious separation of the "keep and bear arms" portion as well, as if those were, in fact, two different rights rather than a single right. It seems that somebody has decided that "assault weapons" are, in fact, less dangerous than a revolver or pistol (handgun) as no such "training" is required for them to be kept or carried.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

I'm being nit picky because I don't disagree with your overall point, but Chinese border security is pretty weak everywhere.

Perhaps because not very many desire to sneak in.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

Looking at the rate of deaths by guns in that list it seems we are right up there with latin america in the US killing rate. It is safer to live in South africa or kuwait than to live in america.

You know, you would probably make a more effective argument if you didn't make absurd claims about South Africa being safer

 

[Goshin]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

And how many of those countries are considering war deaths as homicides? Seriously US lifestyle has very little in common with those countries. Why not quote countries we are similar ot like european countries, or australia, or canada, or perhaps japan. Those are statistics where armed conflicts have boosted the number of killings and those rates of private gun ownership are just those who volunteer their gun registration. As a matter of fact the very way we are listed near those countries instead of closer to more industrialized nations like england, france, germany, japan, and other countries like that shows that we are hanging out in the areas where easy gun ownership tends to put a country. in countries where gun ownership is hard these things seem to happen less and less. let us list some of the countries we should be competing with on violence instead of looking at third world countries that can barely police themselves.

Oh wait now that I go to use your proof against you i notice something. You used a homicide rate, not a gun killing rate. For all we know some of those people were hacked up with machetes. you did not even use the data on gun deaths. Why is that?

Murder is murder, whether with a gun or a machete. Using only gun deaths would be stupid, because then you would not be taking into account that people kill each other in other ways if they don't have a gun handy. Doing it your way would shine the spotlight on guns, rather than on murder... if your real point is to reduce homicide, then you look at ALL homicides.

 

[Goshin]

Re: NRA cheif either makes big goof or proposes real gun restrictions as per Isreali

But the point you are trying to make is that its because of our guns that we have such a "low" murder rate as compared to other countries is it not? So you are saying gun ownership is directly linked to murder rates in that more gun ownerships equates to less murder are you not? Did you compare our numbers to those of Western European nations? I think its not really doing much for your argument if you're forced to compare the United States to places like El Salvador and Cote d'Ivoire

The point I'm making is that gun ownership or gun control has little impact on gun deaths... it is about the CULTURE, the government and economics and lifestyles, of the countries in question.

In truth, comparing ANY country to another country is dubious for that reason... if we're going to compare the US with the UK, with huge differences in history, traditions, laws, government, customs, demographics and so on, we might just as easily compare to Honduras. I know those who want more gun control like to compare us to Europe, but Europe is, in its own ways, as different as Honduras and Columbia in terms of the culture and background issues.

Europe never had a tradition of private ownership of arms; sovereignty of The People; limited government; frontier living conditions and conflicts; mass immigration and the diversity that exists in America.... also no European country has ever had more privately owned guns than people! It changes the equation drastically. Not to mention that since WW2, Europe has become far more pacifistic, turning away from violence and war in reaction to the horrors of WW2, while the USA has become MORE militaristic and more inclined to accept violence. Different cultures, apples and oranges. What works there will not work here in the same manner.