Now that all the historical statues have been torn down

[Irredentist]

Were you expecting a Klan museum with crosses and black mannequins hanging from the ceiling?

I don't have expectations, so I'm rarely surprised.

 

[Irredentist]

And then the federal government said "No, you can't do that." and kicked their asses. As I said it was an important moment in the growth of the power of the federal government.

It was an important moment in the growth of the federal government. But only because the duration and the cost of the war necessitated that growth. The war didn't start as a fight over federal authority. Slavery was the instigating cause. Federal authority only came into question BECAUSE of secession. Not prior to it.

 

[dex4974]

The war didn't start as a fight over federal authority.

The southern states tried to secede and the federal government said "No, we'll kill you." and then did exactly that.

 

[Captain America]

If I was black I would see it as a reminder of how far my people have come. That's just me though.

If I were black, I would haven't to drive so far to Popeye's. That's just me though.

 

[Irredentist]

The southern states tried to secede and the federal government said "No, we'll kill you." and then did exactly that.

But why did they secede in the first place? You're trying to put the chicken before the egg. Federal authority was only questioned because the states seceded, and they only seceded because they were afraid of losing slavery. Ergo, slavery was the one and only cause of the war.

 

[VanceMack]

It tells me a flourishing economy and rising property values does not include poor black communities thanks to efforts by every local republican. Changing names does not change attitudes.

Thats ****ing hilarious. Baltimore has had democrat control since 1947 with the exception of ONE GOP mayor in 1963. Detroit has been 100% controlled by rats since 1962. Minneapolis since 1961. Chicago since 1937. Atlanta since 1887. yet you blame 'republicans'.

 

[JasperL]

In Jacksonville about a decade ago, they renamed all the high schools that had been named after Southern generals. The academic performance of minority students has declined steadily, regardless. Despite a flousihing local economy and rising property values, violent crime in majority minority communities remains high. In short...the minority communities in Jacksonville Florida SINCE the move to rename the high schools are suffering as bad as all the leftist controlled rat run cities in the country that had absolutely zero affiliation with the south or the confederacy. And even someone like you isnt stupid enough to claim that the record number of dead black Amercians in Chicago had ANYTHING to do with the south. So what is your excuse for the failed black American communities in every rat controlled rat run city in the country....cities that have been run by the corrupt rats people like you have been voting into office for 6,7, 8 decades and more?

Only four "rats?"

It's truly a ****ing mystery why renaming schools didn't solve all the problems, and amazing someone would claim that was the silver bullet! Who claims this?

Some people don't like NFL players protesting. What in your life was changed by that? How about some clerk saying "Merry Christmas" or Happy Holidays? Prayer in schools? Life changing or not? Point is there are all kinds of things people favor or oppose for symbolic reasons. No one favoring or opposing them believe they will change the world, but might be important for other reasons, including just symbolism, shared identity, whatever. Frankly not wanting to go to a school named after some ****ing racist, white supremacist traitorous loser is plenty enough of a reason to change that name. If it just does that, Mission Accomplished!

 

[dex4974]

But why did they secede in the first place?

Because the loss of slavery was going to ravage their economies. You're missing the whole picture though. The war was about power, like it always is.

 

[JasperL]

The issue with the "autonomy" argument is that the federal government never actually tried to impose any legal changes whatsoever on the southern states prior to the war. Their autonomy was never threatened.

Instead, the southern states declared secession immediately after the election of 1860, for the sole reason that they didn't like the results.

Well, those are facts. They're not supposed to get in the way of the Lost Cause mythology.

What the southern states saw was without slavery expanding with the territories, at some point decades maybe into the future, new non-slave states would combined with the north have the votes to eventually do away with the peculiar institution, and so they seceded. But you're right - Lincoln was crystal clear that he didn't want to nor did he claim any authority to impact slavery in the existing states, because of the constitution.

 

[JasperL]

You guys project a lot.

Civil War - Causes, Dates & Battles | HISTORY

The Civil War in the United States began in 1861, after decades of simmering tensions between northern and southern s...

www.history.com

There was a struggle over how much autonomy a state has to rule itself with, but if you guys want to think the Civil War was as simple as the heroic north saving slaves from the evil south then you go right ahead.

That's not the story. The south seceded over slavery - the end - and the north went to war to prevent them from seceding.

 

[Master Debator]

You guys project a lot.

Civil War - Causes, Dates & Battles | HISTORY

The Civil War in the United States began in 1861, after decades of simmering tensions between northern and southern s...

www.history.com

There was a struggle over how much autonomy a state has to rule itself with, but if you guys want to think the Civil War was as simple as the heroic north saving slaves from the evil south then you go right ahead.

Nice strawman. No one here said anything about heroic northerners fighting to free slaves. The fact is, and neither of your links contradicts this fact, but the only States rights the South was concerned about were those involving slavery.

When you said, It gave the federal government more precedence to interfere what exactly were you talking about because I still don't know. One of the links you gave was to the Kansas-Nebraska act which was passed and along with the repeal of the Missouri Compromise, gave more sovereignty to States, not less. So what exactly were you referring to? War? Yes, losing a war that you started does tend to have repercussions on your sovereignty.

 

[dex4974]

Nice strawman. No one here said anything about heroic northerners fighting to free slaves. The fact is, and neither of your links contradicts this fact, but the only States rights the South was concerned about were those involving slavery.

When you said, It gave the federal government more precedence to interfere what exactly were you talking about because I still don't know. One of the links you gave was to the Kansas-Nebraska act which was passed and along with the repeal of the Missouri Compromise, gave more anonymity to States, not less. So what exactly were you referring to? War? Yes, losing a war that you started does tend to repercussions on your sovereignty.

You are not perceiving my argument and I'm uninterested in trying to break it down for you further. Have a nice day.

 

[Irredentist]

Because the loss of slavery was going to ravage their economies. You're missing the whole picture though. The war was about power, like it always is.

Well yeah, kind of. The south wanted to preserve their power over other human beings, to force them to work for free. Despite the fact that the North and the Federal government hadn't yet tried to undo the institution of slavery in any way. The south was so terrified at even the long term prospect of social progress, and the erosion of slavery, that they felt it necessary to secede, to protect slavery, and only because of slavery.

 

[dex4974]

the north went to war to prevent them from seceding.

Yes.

The war was about power and the right of a state to govern itself or not. If a state tried to secede today there would be war regardless of the reasoning. Uncle Sam doesn't relinquish power peacefully.

 

[JasperL]

Because the loss of slavery was going to ravage their economies. You're missing the whole picture though. The war was about power, like it always is.

It's possible that loss of slavery would have happened in a couple of decades or so, but at the time slavery in the states wasn't at risk, at all, none. It was enshrined in the Constitution, and there was no chance to change that with the south opposed.

And, yes it was about power, but it was also clearly about the notion whether someone can and should be a slave because of the color of their skin or their mom was a slave. You can't reduce slavery to just an economic argument any more than you can reduce white supremacy and Jim Crow to one. Of course Jim Crow entrenched white interests in the south (and similar efforts outside the south) and at the expense of blacks, but it's not just about that, but the moral question whether or not someone has fewer rights just because they are black.

 

[Master Debator]

You are not perceiving my argument and I'm uninterested in trying to break it down for you further. Have a nice day.

I perceived it just fine. I asked for clarification and instead you've decided to run away.

 

[dex4974]

Well yeah, kind of. The south wanted to preserve their power over other human beings, to force them to work for free.

And the federal government wanted to use violence to prevent the states from seceding. It's naive to not understand that power and states' rights is almost the entire reason the war started. What led up to the events that caused the war to happen is a different story.

 

[Integrityrespec]

It's great. Little black.girls and boys dont have to go to the park and see statues of traitors.


You really miss the statues of traitors....dont you?

Actually I doubt many little black boys and girls visited those parks, in fact, I doubt very many people of any color visited those parks that often.

 

[Master Debator]

Yes.

The war was about power and the right of a state to govern itself or not. If a state tried to secede today there would be war regardless of the reasoning. Uncle Sam doesn't relinquish power peacefully.

That poster is wrong. The North went to war because the South attacked them after they seceded.

 

[dex4974]

That poster is wrong. The North went to war because the South attacked them after they seceded.

Yeah and Vietnam started because we were attacked too. No way in hell was the federal government going to allow that many states to secede. The war was about power and Uncle Sam was willing to spill blood.

 

[Integrityrespec]

And the federal government wanted to use violence to prevent the states from seceding. It's naive to not understand that power and states' rights is almost the entire reason the war started. What led up to the events that caused the war to happen is a different story.

But today we have states like California ignoring federal law and establishing sanctuary states for illegals in the country, many who are repeat offender criminals. When will the government force them to comply?

 

[Irredentist]

And the federal government wanted to use violence to prevent the states from seceding. It's naive to not understand that power and states' rights is almost the entire reason the war started. What led up to the events that caused the war to happen is a different story.

The federal government wanted to use violence to prevent the states from seceding? Excuse me, but that's nonsense. Lincoln did not want to use violence at all. He begged the south for a peaceful solution, but they refused and instead the south attacked first. Had the south simply been a little less aggressive, they could easily have kept their slaves and their states rights. They were just stupid.

 

[dex4974]

He begged the south for a peaceful solution

The peaceful solution was the south rejoining the union. Maybe I should have said "was willing to use violence" but whatever. The war happened because there was no ****ing way the federal government was going to allow the entire south to secede.

 

[vegas giants]

Actually I doubt many little black boys and girls visited those parks, in fact, I doubt very many people of any color visited those parks that often.

You never been down south.we have these statues everywhere

 

[Master Debator]

The peaceful solution was the south rejoining the union. Maybe I should have said "was willing to use violence" but whatever. The war happened because there was no ****ing way the federal government was going to allow the entire south to secede.

And yet they did and war only broke out after the South attacked.