November 20th is the transgender day of remembrance to those trans people who have died because of violence or suicide.

[CLAX1911]

No you cant see it when the transition is complete and effective. That is calling being stealth and passing.

How do you know if people can't see it? How can you tell what other people know about you if you don't possess the insight to look inside their mind?

If I see a person that's trying to look female but clearly isn't because I'm polite I'll refer to them as female even if they're not trans they appreciate it.

Is that person stealthy how do you know this isn't 100% of stelthing?

A trans woman would typically use she or her pronouns because she likely has a female gender identity.

When describing a woman or something female sure but when describing someone or some animal or an object as male she would use he. Or when it's something that doesn't have a gender or no sexual characteristics are applied to it she would use it.

No woman alive would refer to herself as she or her she refers to herself it's me or I.

I use he him, she heard they them it you I me all the time in language.

I think what you mean to say is she wants you to use those words when you're describing her and she's not in charge of that.

Some trans females do use non-binary pronouns.

I or me is non binary. Such a person wouldn't use they or them to describe themselves.

Its a very personal decision that relates to their gender identity as where they are on the gender spectrum.

It has nothing to do with personal when you're saying I use these pronouns what you're saying is you must use these pronouns to discuss things related to me. I don't walk into places telling them what pronouns are used because I don't need to. Further they will use whatever pronouns they see are appropriate for someone like me.

This pronoun thing is totally astroturfed and fake I don't know why people keep insisting on it you don't use she or her to describe yourself unless you're a profound douchebag and talk about yourself in the third person you use I or me.

 

[Aristaeus]

What you just said was a complete red herring and effectively irrelevant to the over-arching problem.

Misgendering a person is a recognizable insult.
Do you disagree with this fact? Yes or No.

If you agree with the statement, then the consequences are clear.
You mentioned "my adjectives are __", which is realistically begging the issue. It would be more like saying that calling Beverly a "him" is insulting, like calling Jane a "MILF" is insulting. In the work-place, there are laws on harassment that would cover NOT using those terms.

Yes, misgendering can be an insult. That still doesn't mean you 'have' pronouns.

The purpose of language is to bridge the gap between separate human minds, communicating information through shared conventions - like common definitions of words and acceptable grammar. That is, it’s inherently a two way street requiring cooperation. In that context, for whose utility do we have & use pronouns - primarily the speaker, the listener or the person being discussed?

You and I could be discussing somebody who is a thousand miles away and whom neither of us will ever meet - if we use a gendered pronoun in our communication, should that be between the two of us who are negotiating common language, or is the third party we are talking about the primary “owner” of the pronoun? Who chooses whether we use “woman”, or “lady” or “female” to informally refer to the third party who is not present?

The traditional answer is that the speaker and listener get to choose their common language to suit their communication. If the word in question is gendered, the speaker usually makes a choice based on how they read the person. It’s their speech and they control the words they use.

Some modern advocates of personal choice in pronouns believe that the person being referred to should have sole and complete control of the pronoun that others use for them. That is, they are asserting a newly forged right to control other people’s pronoun usage. That’s a radically new linguistic concept.

 

[Fletch]

That is because of the current limits of medical technology. Drs do what is permitted by current medical technology to change a person's sex. Its not perfect but it does alleviate much of a gender dysphoria that someone suffers. How many times does this need to be explained to you?

It doesnt have to be explained to me. I understand and agree with you. You need to explain it to @foundit66 who continues to blur the lines between sex and gender when it suits his purpose.

The fact that you cannot see a persons DNA or chromosomes doesn't mean that you would know that a person was not born their current sex, so dont let facts get in the way of moronic conservative talking points that try to defend transphobic bigotry.

Since it is your DNA and chromosomes that determine your sex, and nothing else, me saying so is not 'a moronic conservative talking point that tries to defend transphobic bigotry.' Its a fact.

 

[rahl]

No. It is the truth.

No, it’s a demonstrable lie.

As I stated (and you cowardly ducked), even the government acknowledges the sex change has occurred.

Which doesn’t change the fact that their sex didn’t actually change. This is because it is a biological impossibility to do so.

Transgenderism has a biological basis.

No it doesn’t.

Moving forward, discussing with you is pointless because all you do is contradict.

No, I refute using actual science.

You say nothing of significance other than contradicting.

No, I refute using actual science.

You refuse to elaborate beyond vague claims you do not follow up on.

There is nothing that needs elaborated on. Biology is quite clear. Humans are binary. Either male or female. And it can’t be changed. Biology precludes sex from being changed.

You refuse to actually address any evidence provided to you.

I’ve addressed and refuted everything you’ve put forth.

Your responses are entirely predictable and one-dimensional.

Yes, reality will continue to be presented to you when you post incorrect and delusional nonsense.

 

[rahl]

That is your opinion.

It’s not. It is a biological fact that you can not change your sex.

 

[rahl]

I'm stopping you here because we obviously disagree on that point.

your agreement or disagreement is meaningless. It is a biological fact.

 

[Aristaeus]

It is not unexpected that you completely miss (or rather avoid) the point.
Your "you should have stopped right there" is very inappropriate because the reality is that you DO NOT WANT TO address the rest of what I said.

You get to define YOUR pronoun for YOUR gender identity.
I do not get to define YOUR pronoun for YOUR gender identity.

Likewise...
I get to define MY pronoun for MY gender identity.
You do not get to define MY pronoun for MY gender identity.

In summary, we both have a right to define an appropriate pronoun for our own gender identities.
If your gender identity is male and you are cisgendered, I do not get to call you a female if my belief of your gender identity is female. That would constitute harassment.
You fail to acknowledge that the "misgendering" cuts both ways.

Like I have been pointing out, the law / EEOC has the position I described. You saying others "don't know" something as you just regurgitate your prejudiced opinion is laughable and pointless.

Cool. I get to define my pronouns and you need to respect that? I prefer people to use the pronoun 'thou' instead of 'you' when addressing me.

I assume you'll respect my pronouns?

 

[foundit66]

Cool. I get to define my pronouns and you need to respect that? I prefer people to use the pronoun 'thou' instead of 'you' when addressing me.
I assume you'll respect my pronouns?

I won't respect rules you just make up that are convenient for your position with one person.

You have over 8,000 posts on this thread, and your above post is the first time you have made such a request. As such, it demonstrates you are not serious with your claim at all and it's all just a stupid stunt to mock the situation.

your agreement or disagreement is meaningless. It is a biological fact.

So your OPINION claims.
All you are doing is providing YOUR OPINION and repeatedly stating your disagreement. There is no point in this "is not" / "is too" / "is not" / "is too" / "is not" / "is too" back and forth.

 

[rahl]

So your OPINION claims.

I have not offered an opinion. I pointed out biological reality.

All you are doing is providing YOUR OPINION and repeatedly stating your disagreement.

Nope. I’mpointing out biological fact. Your disagreement with reality doesn’t actually change it.

There is no point in this "is not" / "is too" / "is not" / "is too" / "is not" / "is too" back and forth.

There is no back and forth. There is only reality. And reality shows biology precludes a male from becoming a female. It’s simply not possible.

 

[foundit66]

Yes, misgendering can be an insult. That still doesn't mean you 'have' pronouns.

That's potentially a bit of a strawman argument...
The language establishes gender pronouns.

The purpose of language is to bridge the gap between separate human minds, communicating information through shared conventions - like common definitions of words and acceptable grammar. That is, it’s inherently a two way street requiring cooperation. In that context, for whose utility do we have & use pronouns - primarily the speaker, the listener or the person being discussed?

Your analysis is wrong in claiming it's a "two way street".
The civilization establishes the language usage. The speaker and listener don't just make up their own rules. They abide by the languages' rules.

Don't try to pretend that either the speaker or the listener has some innate ownership over the language situation. They don't.

You and I could be discussing somebody who is a thousand miles away and whom neither of us will ever meet - if we use a gendered pronoun in our communication, should that be between the two of us who are negotiating common language, or is the third party we are talking about the primary “owner” of the pronoun? Who chooses whether we use “woman”, or “lady” or “female” to informally refer to the third party who is not present?

There are language rules for such situations.

The traditional answer is that the speaker and listener get to choose their common language to suit their communication.

No.
If we were speaking about a gender neutral position (e.g. a manager) without knowing anything about the person's gender, we would typically use words like "they" or "them".

The manager should be here on Monday. They will meet the team at the 10:00 AM meeting.​

Some modern advocates of personal choice in pronouns believe that the person being referred to should have sole and complete control of the pronoun that others use for them. That is, they are asserting a newly forged right to control other people’s pronoun usage. That’s a radically new linguistic concept.

It's called PROPER ENGLISH.
People refusing to utilize proper English is a radically new linguistic concept.

Refusal to refer to people in a civil manner is not a new phobic response. Racists insisted on using only specific terms for blacks. Misogynists insisted on using only specific terms for women. Homophobes insisted on using only specific terms for gays.
Today, transphobes insist on only using specific terms for transgenders.

 

[foundit66]

I have not offered an opinion. I pointed out biological reality.
Nope. I’mpointing out biological fact. Your disagreement with reality doesn’t actually change it.

You have given YOUR OPINION as to what "biological reality" is.

There is no back and forth.

This comment is delusional.
All you are doing is repeating your claims ad nausieum, as you ignore the evidence contradicting your claim.

THE GOVERNMENT recognizes sex changes, but that's not convenient for your position so you avoid discussing it. Anything that is inconvenient for you to address, you ignore it in favor of just repeating your claim.

The most likely response from you to my first sentence above is for you to just repeat that you (think) you are pointing out biological reality / fact. That is literally all you can do.

 

[rahl]

You have given YOUR OPINION as to what "biological reality" is.

You seem confused again. I have not offered a single opinion in this thread. Biological reality, is reality. It doesn’t care that you are offended.

This comment is delusional.

You misspelled factual.

All you are doing is repeating your claims ad nausieum, as you ignore the evidence contradicting your claim.

I have not made any claims either. I have and will continue to point out biological reality.

THE GOVERNMENT recognizes sex changes, but that's not convenient for your position so you avoid discussing it. Anything that is inconvenient for you to address, you ignore it in favor of just repeating your claim.

Again, biology doesn’t care. It remains a biological impossibility to change your sex.

The most likely response from you to my first sentence above is for you to just repeat that you (think) you are pointing out biological reality / fact. That is literally all you can do.

Yes, all I can do is post biological fact. It is a complete impossibility to change your sex. Your dna doesn’t care how many body parts you chop off, or how much silicone you stuff in your chest.

 

[foundit66]

You seem confused again. I have not offered a single opinion in this thread. Biological reality, is reality. It doesn’t care that you are offended.
You misspelled factual.
I have not made any claims either. I have and will continue to point out biological reality.
Again, biology doesn’t care. It remains a biological impossibility to change your sex.
Yes, all I can do is post biological fact. It is a complete impossibility to change your sex. Your dna doesn’t care how many body parts you chop off, or how much silicone you stuff in your chest.

All you have done is make claims. You claim your opinion is "reality". You claim your opinion is "biological".

The government recognizes sex change operations change the sex of the patient. When complete, the identity of the patient is changed accordingly.
I have shown the definition involves the genitalia, so when the genitalia is changed thus the sex is changed as well.
I have shown that transgenderism is biological by documenting that transgender people have the brain scans of the gender they identify as.

You have shown absolutely nothing. You have presented absolutely nothing. You make these claims but provide absolutely no evidence other than to repeatedly make claims.
The only thing you have done is mention DNA, but the definition of "sex" makes no reference to DNA. You don't have to change the DNA to properly be recognized as having changed your sex.

 

[CLAX1911]

That's potentially a bit of a strawman argument...
The language establishes gender pronouns.


Your analysis is wrong in claiming it's a "two way street".
The civilization establishes the language usage. The speaker and listener don't just make up their own rules. They abide by the languages' rules.

Don't try to pretend that either the speaker or the listener has some innate ownership over the language situation. They don't.


There are language rules for such situations.


No.
If we were speaking about a gender neutral position (e.g. a manager) without knowing anything about the person's gender, we would typically use words like "they" or "them".

The manager should be here on Monday. They will meet the team at the 10:00 AM meeting.​

It's called PROPER ENGLISH.
People refusing to utilize proper English is a radically new linguistic concept.

Refusal to refer to people in a civil manner is not a new phobic response. Racists insisted on using only specific terms for blacks. Misogynists insisted on using only specific terms for women. Homophobes insisted on using only specific terms for gays.
Today, transphobes insist on only using specific terms for transgenders.

No he's right. You don't have pronouns.

 

[CLAX1911]

All you have done is make claims. You claim your opinion is "reality". You claim your opinion is "biological".

The government recognizes sex change operations change the sex of the patient. When complete, the identity of the patient is changed accordingly.
I have shown the definition involves the genitalia, so when the genitalia is changed thus the sex is changed as well.
I have shown that transgenderism is biological by documenting that transgender people have the brain scans of the gender they identify as.

You have shown absolutely nothing. You have presented absolutely nothing. You make these claims but provide absolutely no evidence other than to repeatedly make claims.
The only thing you have done is mention DNA, but the definition of "sex" makes no reference to DNA. You don't have to change the DNA to properly be recognized as having changed your sex.

All you ever do is claim biological fact is opinion. It's because you're wrong.

 

[foundit66]

No he's right. You don't have pronouns.

Trying to argue over whether "you have pronouns" is a strawman. It's like trying to argue over whether a triangle has an innate color. It is completely begging the real issue.
Your response addresses absolutely nothing I said.

If you want to actually discuss the point, then address what I actually said: https://debatepolitics.com/threads/...of-violence-or-suicide.526688/post-1079307194
Without that, your reply is nothing but an "I agree with another poster" while being completely incapable of discussing the actual topic.

To paraphrase, GENDERS have pronouns. A proper utilization of a personal pronoun for a transgender person would to be use their gender identity pronoun.

All you ever do is claim biological fact is opinion. It's because you're wrong.

Again, you lie like a dog.

All you ever do is claim that your opinion amounts to biological facts.
What you claim I do is also an egregious lie.
I have documented:

• The government recognizes sex change operations change the sex of the patient. When complete, the identity of the patient is changed accordingly.
• I have shown the definition involves the genitalia, so when the genitalia is changed thus the sex is changed as well.
• I have shown that transgenderism is biological by documenting that transgender people have the brain scans of the gender they identify as.

Can you argue with any of those points?
Alternatively, can you explain what "biological fact" you are prepared to defend as a "biological fact", which I am actually contesting?

 

[rahl]

All you have done is make claims…….

I have not made any claims. I have repeatedly pointed out biological fact. It is not possible to change sexes. This is not in any way debatable. At all.

 

[CLAX1911]

Trying to argue over whether "you have pronouns" is a strawman. It's like trying to argue over whether a triangle has an innate color. It is completely begging the real issue.
Your response addresses absolutely nothing I said.

If you want to actually discuss the point, then address what I actually said: https://debatepolitics.com/threads/...of-violence-or-suicide.526688/post-1079307194
Without that, your reply is nothing but an "I agree with another poster" while being completely incapable of discussing the actual topic.

To paraphrase, GENDERS have pronouns. A proper utilization of a personal pronoun for a transgender person would to be use their gender identity pronoun.


Again, you lie like a dog.

All you ever do is claim that your opinion amounts to biological facts.
What you claim I do is also an egregious lie.
I have documented:

• The government recognizes sex change operations change the sex of the patient. When complete, the identity of the patient is changed accordingly.
• I have shown the definition involves the genitalia, so when the genitalia is changed thus the sex is changed as well.
• I have shown that transgenderism is biological by documenting that transgender people have the brain scans of the gender they identify as.

Can you argue with any of those points?
Alternatively, can you explain what "biological fact" you are prepared to defend as a "biological fact", which I am actually contesting?

You don't have pronouns.

Biology isn't a lie.

 

[Lisa]

You don't have pronouns.

Biology isn't a lie.

Unless you lack a brain that is certainty also part of biology. You are certainly free to deny that you have a brain.

Male and female brains are, on average, slightly different in structure, although there is tremendous individual variability. Several studies have looked for signs that transgender people have brains more similar to their experienced gender. Spanish investigators—led by psychobiologist Antonio Guillamon of the National Distance Education University in Madrid and neuropsychologist Carme Junqué Plaja of the University of Barcelona—used MRI to examine the brains of 24 female-to-males and 18 male-to-females—both before and after treatment with cross-sex hormones. Their results, published in 2013, showed that even before treatment the brain structures of the trans people were more similar in some respects to the brains of their experienced gender than those of their natal gender. For example, the female-to-male subjects had relatively thin subcortical areas (these areas tend to be thinner in men than in women). Male-to-female subjects tended to have thinner cortical regions in the right hemisphere, which is characteristic of a female brain. (Such differences became more pronounced after treatment.)


“Trans people have brains that are different from males and females, a unique kind of brain,” Guillamon says. “It is simplistic to say that a female-to-male transgender person is a female trapped in a male body. It's not because they have a male brain but a transsexual brain.” Of course, behavior and experience shape brain anatomy, so it is impossible to say if these subtle differences are inborn.

Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain?

Imaging studies and other research suggest that there is a biological basis for transgender identity

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[CLAX1911]

Unless you lack a brain that is certainty also part of biology.

Gender identity? No that's social identity.

You've claimed some biological root to it but you have failed to show. So it's not biology you just want to believe that it is

You are certainly free to deny that you have a brain.

Is There Something Unique about the Transgender Brain?

Imaging studies and other research suggest that there is a biological basis for transgender identity

www.scientificamerican.com

Yeah that transgender brain stuff is dubious. I think it's primarily driven by wishful thinking.

 

[Lisa]

Gender identity? No that's social identity.

Still you do not grasp even the most basis concepts of gender idneity because it is not about social gender roles. Is this a threat to your worldview, so you dont want to understand it because you would be forced to change how you view the world around you or maybe even yourself?

You've claimed some biological root to it but you have failed to show. So it's not biology you just want to believe that it is

Yeah that transgender brain stuff is dubious. I think it's primarily driven by wishful thinking.

Drs and psychologists don't care what you think. They never did. Your unsupported opinions do not change facts.

 

[CLAX1911]

Still you do not grasp even the most basis concepts of gender idneity because it is not about social gender roles.

Yes I do. I just don't believe the myth that there is a biological component.

Drs and psychologists don't care what you think. They never did. Your unsupported opinions do not change facts.

I don't care what you think either.

 

[foundit66]

I have not made any claims. I have repeatedly pointed out biological fact.

You are making a claim that it is a biological fact.
When you fail to provide evidence to support your claim, the only thing left to recognize is that your claim is your opinion.

It is not possible to change sexes. This is not in any way debatable. At all.

You continue to make this claim...
Yet, the American government recognizes sex changes and willingly updates documentation to properly reflect the changed sex.

You don't have pronouns.

If you were smarter, you could recognize I am not arguing "I have pronouns".
Refer to post #241 for everything you are avoiding.

November 20th is the transgender day of remembrance to those trans people who have died because of violence or suicide.

No you cant see it when the transition is complete and effective. That is calling being stealth and passing. How do you know if people can't see it? How can you tell what other people know about you if you don't possess the insight to look inside their mind? If I see a person that's trying to...

debatepolitics.com

Biology isn't a lie.

Of course it isn't.
YOUR CLAIMS about biology are typically lies.

Gender identity? No that's social identity.

Again, just because you want to call it something else DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE PRESENTED AN ARGUMENT.

You've claimed some biological root to it but you have failed to show. So it's not biology you just want to believe that it is

This is another of your lies.
@Lisa just did show a biological connection in the post you responded to.
In response, you again just gave your OPINION with absolutely no justification for your assessment.

Yeah that transgender brain stuff is dubious. I think it's primarily driven by wishful thinking.

You wanting it to be wishful thinking does not change the facts.
The referenced study has been backed up repeatedly by other studies.

Can you explain WHY you think it's dubious? Or is giving your OPINION that you think it is dubious the best you can do?

 

[Lisa]

Yes I do. I just don't believe the myth that there is a biological component.

There is no myth when an MRI or an autopsy provides concrete proof that it is biologically supported. You hold transphobic opinions and you arent about to allow facts to get in the way of them.

Do you also plan to deny that genes exist?

Twenty-one variants in 19 genes have been found in estrogen signaling pathways of the brain critical to establishing whether the brain is masculine or feminine," says Dr. J. Graham Theisen, obstetrician/gynecologist and National Institutes of Health Women's Reproductive Health Research Scholar at the Medical College of Georgia at Augusta University.


Basically -- and perhaps counterintuitively -- these genes are primarily involved in estrogen's critical sprinkling of the brain right before or after birth, which is essential to masculinization of the brain.


Variants investigators identified may mean that in natal males (people whose birth sex is male) this critical estrogen exposure doesn't happen or the pathway is altered so the brain does not get masculinized. In natal females, it may mean that estrogen exposure happens when it normally wouldn't, leading to masculinization.


Both could result in an incongruence between a person's internal gender and their external sex. The negative emotional experience associated with this incongruence is called gender dysphoria.


"They are experiencing dysphoria because the gender they feel on the inside does not match their external sex," Theisen says. "Once someone has a male or female brain, they have it and you are not going to change it. The goal of treatments like hormone therapy and surgery is to help their body more closely match where their brain already is."


"It doesn't matter which sex organs you have, it's whether estrogen, or androgen, which is converted to estrogen in the brain, masculinizes the brain during this critical period," says Dr. Lawrence C. Layman, chief of the MCG Section of Reproductive Endocrinology, Infertility and Genetics in the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology. "We have found variants in genes that are important in some of these different areas of the brain."


These brain pathways are involved in regions of the brain where the number of neurons and how connected the neurons are typically differ between males and females.

Gene variants provide insight into brain, body incongruence in transgender

Some of the first biological evidence of the incongruence transgender individuals experience, because their brain indicates they are one sex and their body another, may have been found in estrogen receptor pathways in the brain of 30 transgender individuals.

www.sciencedaily.com

I don't care what you think either.

Your claims are emotionally driven and not supported by facts.

I have not made any claims. I have repeatedly pointed out biological fact. It is not possible to change sexes. This is not in any way debatable. At all.

Repeating this same simplistic claim doesn't make it objectively true.

 

[CLAX1911]

There is no myth when an MRI or an autopsy provides concrete proof that it is biologically supported.

No it's been debunked.

You hold transphobic opinions and you arent about to allow facts to get in the way of them.

If you think the only reason someone disagrees with you is because they're out to get you that means you are irrational.

Calling people names only works for a little while until everyone realizes what bs it all is

Do you also plan to deny that genes exist?

There is absolutely no genetic connection to gender identity it's a social thing

Gene variants provide insight into brain, body incongruence in transgender

Some of the first biological evidence of the incongruence transgender individuals experience, because their brain indicates they are one sex and their body another, may have been found in estrogen receptor pathways in the brain of 30 transgender individuals.

www.sciencedaily.com

Your claims are emotionally driven and not supported by facts.

Your claims are emotional based on Cherry picked debunked studies not facts

Repeating this same simplistic claim doesn't make it objectively true.

The irony of you telling me this is palpable.

Gender identity is a social construct.

Neuroscience supports it as does psychology.