Note to President Bush

[Lefty]

No actually the debate hasn't even started because you haven't even acknowledged the Weekly Standard Case Closed article.

Yeah I read it, which is more you do to anything that I cite. But reading it does not automatically make me believe it. Honestly, I swear this debate ended 2 years ago, I'm not trying to degrade your point here, I just thought people has shut up about it. I thought it had effectively been esablished that there was no connection.

[QUOTE="FreeThinker]Stop twisting my words. You attempted to make the ridiculous statement that Hussein and terrorism had nothing to do with each other. And 10k in a 3rd world country like palestine is a huge sum.[/QUOTE]

Yeah it's a lot of money even to me, but what does that have to do with anything? I never said Hussein wasn't connected to those suicide bombers, I said that he wasn't connected to alqaeda. Now you are twisting my words.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Yeah I read it, which is more you do to anything that I cite. But reading it does not automatically make me believe it. Honestly, I swear this debate ended 2 years ago, I'm not trying to degrade your point here, I just thought people has shut up about it. I thought it had effectively been esablished that there was no connection.

No only the liberal propagandists have effectively established that, anyone with a brain or who can watch the t.v. with Zarqawi cutting off heads in the name of AlQaeda knows that there was and is a link.

 

[Lefty]

No only the liberal propagandists have effectively established that, anyone with a brain or who can watch the t.v. with Zarqawi cutting off heads in the name of AlQaeda knows that there was and is a link.

There is a link now that we invaded Iraq! But there was never a link established to Saddam, anyone with a brain knows that. And only conservative propagandists still debate this crap.

Thought you could use a taste of your own medicine.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

There is a link now that we invaded Iraq! But there was never a link established to Saddam, anyone with a brain knows that. And only conservative propagandists still debate this crap.

Thought you could use a taste of your own medicine.

Actually there was a link it's even in the 9-11 commission report and there's even more in the weekly standard article which you conveniently ignore.

 

[FreeThinker]

Yeah it's a lot of money even to me, but what does that have to do with anything? I never said Hussein wasn't connected to those suicide bombers, I said that he wasn't connected to alqaeda. Now you are twisting my words.

Your entire reason for citing that saddam and al qaeda were not linked was to justify another liberal lie that we had no justification for kicking his ass out of power. Saddam was linked to terrorists, splitting hairs over what ethnicity of women and children they blow up is just plain racist.

 

[cnredd]

There is a link now that we invaded Iraq! But there was never a link established to Saddam, anyone with a brain knows that. And only conservative propagandists still debate this crap.

Thought you could use a taste of your own medicine.

The Iraq-Al Qaeda-terrorism connection explained

The commission looking into the causes of the 9/11 terror attacks on the United States did not conclude that claims by the Bush administration of ties between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda were pure myth, as many newspaper headlines and broadcast reports asserted. As the vice chairman of the panel, Lee Hamilton, stated, "There were connections between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's government. We don't disagree on that."

Perhaps this can be placed in a context more Americans would understand. Suppose that instead of radical Islamists (would the non-radicals kindly step forward and isolate and eliminate the radicals?), we were talking about the Mafia. Surely in our "Sopranos"-obsessed age we would immediately get it, wouldn't we?

Let's say the Gambino family was mostly in charge of loan sharking. The Bonanno family ran prostitution rings. The Genovese family looked after the numbers racket. The Lucchese family established legitimate business fronts through which they laundered everyone's illegally obtained cash. A technical case could be made that members of the Genovese family were not directly connected to the activities of the Bonanno family. Neither could it technically be said that the Gambino boys had much to do with the fronts of the Luccheses. Does that mean there would be no direct criminal relationship among them, though all were part of the Mafia?

Maybe Saddam Hussein didn't speak directly to Osama bin Laden, but he was part of the same "family." Saddam did not personally bomb targets inside Israel (except during the 1990 Gulf War) but he rewarded the families of homicide bombers. Does that prove a connection between Saddam and Palestinian terrorism? The guy who drives the getaway car is as guilty as the people who rob the bank and shoot the teller.

Jeff Birnbaum of The Washington Post wrote: "The staff report (of the 9/11 Commission) indicates that there was considerable interaction between Bin Laden and Iraq ... it was clear that they're fellow travelers." Commission co-chair Thomas Kean said, "What we have found is, were there contacts between Al Qaeda and Iraq? Yes, some of them were shadowy - but they were there."

This is far removed from the headlines that screamed "Al Qaeda-Hussein Link Is Dismissed" (Washington Post); "Panel Finds No Qaeda-Iraq Tie" (New York Times); "No Signs of Iraq-Al-Qaeda Ties Found" (Los Angeles Times).

continued....

 

[Lefty]

Your entire reason for citing that saddam and al qaeda were not linked was to justify another liberal lie that we had no justification for kicking his ass out of power. Saddam was linked to terrorists, splitting hairs over what ethnicity of women and children they blow up is just plain racist.

Wait wait wait. How dare you call me a racist! I never once "split hairs" over ethnicity! I never once mentioned ethnicity of the "women and children they blow up." In fact I never mentioned ethnicity at all. Don't come here and make **** up about me!

I never debated ethnicity you jerk. I said that it's a terrible excuse to go to war with a country because he gave $10,000 to a suicide bombers family. I don't care if it's a family of a 9-11 suicide bomber or a suicide bomber in isreal. If that's your justification for war, than I don't agree with it. That was my point! Thanks for completely misrepresenting what I said.

 

[Lefty]

Qaeda Link Said Made Up by Detainee

Al-Qaeda link to Iraq tied to coercion claim

Al Qaeda-Iraq link testimony coerced

Why not coerce a confession?

Amazing what a little research can do. And interestingly enough this is also a great argument against torture. See the kind of bad information you get?

 

[alphieb]

Yes the taxes are anchors on the hard working poor and middle class families, when you redistribute wealth that money still comes from some where it just doesn't magically fall out of the sky and land in the pockets of the jobless wonders who would rather smoke crack and drink from noon to sun up rather than to get a job, this money is taken out of the peoples pockets who actually work for a living.

You are simply assuming that everyone on welfare is smoking crack or drinking all the time. That is a stereotype assumption. Most people on welfare don't have money to buy crack. Sometimes people fall upon adversities. Health Care is a big reason why. People cannot afford health insurance or are dosed by deductibles that they loose everything. That is why we need National Health Care.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

You are simply assuming that everyone on welfare is smoking crack or drinking all the time. That is a stereotype assumption. Most people on welfare don't have money to buy crack. Sometimes people fall upon adversities. Health Care is a big reason why. People cannot afford health insurance or are dosed by deductibles that they loose everything. That is why we need National Health Care.

No I'm not assuming that they all are but I am assuming that they all have made some pretty bad decisions in their lives and for that I am not responsible, it's called social darwinsm, if I can make it so can they, that is if they try, why should the poor who work hard be drug down by the poor who don't do ****? It's an anchor on the ankle of every poor person willing to work to obtain social mobility, welfare keeps the rich rich and the poor poor , and it's the rich that can afford the added taxation while the poor can't, that's why families like the Kennedy's and the Rockefellers are all for welfare, so as they can sustain their elitests status and their power while they keep the working man down.

 

[alphieb]

No I'm not assuming that they all are but I am assuming that they all have made some pretty bad decisions in their lives and for that I am not responsible, it's called social darwinsm, if I can make it so can they, that is if they try, why should the poor who work hard be drug down by the poor who don't do ****? It's an anchor on the ankle of every poor person willing to work to obtain social mobility, welfare keeps the rich rich and the poor poor , and it's the rich that can afford the added taxation while the poor can't, that's why families like the Kennedy's and the Rockefellers are all for welfare, so as they can sustain their elitests status and their power while they keep the working man down.

Then why was it the republicans that cut educational financial aid? With an education comes success. Besides, the republicans are spending money like water after a Clinton balanced budget.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Then why was it the republicans that cut educational financial aid? With an education comes success. Besides, the republicans are spending money like water after a Clinton balanced budget.

Power corrupts the Neo-cons aren't conservative but they're better than the alternative. And as I recall it was the Republicans who wanted to put through a voucher program on education not to mention Bush's no child left behind policy with mandatory testing.

 

[Stace]

Power corrupts the Neo-cons aren't conservative but they're better than the alternative. And as I recall it was the Republicans who wanted to put through a voucher program on education not to mention Bush's no child left behind policy with mandatory testing.

If memory serves me correctly, the voucher program would only be valid for religious schools.

And NCLB is a joke.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

If memory serves me correctly, the voucher program would only be valid for religious schools.

And NCLB is a joke.

Is that a problem for you? Some of the best schools in the nation are Catholic High Schools. They're expensive too, my parents could only afford to send me for my freshmen year.

 

[Stace]

Is that a problem for you? Some of the best schools in the nation are Catholic High Schools. They're expensive too, my parents could only afford to send me for my freshmen year.

Actually, it is a problem for me, as I am agnostic. I believe that religious teachings should be left at home and at church; the schoolhouse is for learning reading, writing, etc.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Actually, it is a problem for me, as I am agnostic. I believe that religious teachings should be left at home and at church; the schoolhouse is for learning reading, writing, etc.

Ya so I'm agnostic too (you know that means we don't make a judgement either way right?), the fact of the matter is that Catholic High Schools are better than public schools educationally IE smaller classes and one on one student to teacher help.

I don't know about you but learning, reading, and writing is not what I learned in public high school.

 

[Engimo]

Actually there was a link it's even in the 9-11 commission report and there's even more in the weekly standard article which you conveniently ignore.

You are dishonest, or at the least very lazy.

A google search for "9-11 commission al qaeda iraq" gives a bunch of hits, the first being... well, let me just show you.




Reading the article:

"The Sept. 11 commission reported yesterday that it has found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda, challenging one of the Bush administration's main justifications for the war in Iraq.

Along with the contention that Saddam Hussein was stockpiling weapons of mass destruction, President Bush, Vice President Cheney and other top administration officials have often asserted that there were extensive ties between Hussein's government and Osama bin Laden's terrorist network; earlier this year, Cheney said evidence of a link was "overwhelming."

But the report of the commission's staff, based on its access to all relevant classified information, said that there had been contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda but no cooperation. In yesterday's hearing of the panel, formally known as the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, a senior FBI official and a senior CIA analyst concurred with the finding."

Like I said, Iraq and Al-Qaeda got together to talk a couple times, but they never collaborated on anything - they couldn't get along.

Also, this article came out a year after the article you posted did.

 

[Kelzie]

Ya so I'm agnostic too (you know that means we don't make a judgement either way right?), the fact of the matter is that Catholic High Schools are better than public schools educationally IE smaller classes and one on one student to teacher help.

I don't know about you but learning, reading, and writing is not what I learned in public high school.

Maybe you should have applied yourself?

Catholic schools are not that much better when you look at the demographics of the school population. Low income Catholic schools do just as poorly as low income public schools.

 

[Stace]

Ya so I'm agnostic too (you know that means we don't make a judgement either way right?), the fact of the matter is that Catholic High Schools are better than public schools educationally IE smaller classes and one on one student to teacher help.

I don't know about you but learning, reading, and writing is not what I learned in public high school.

Being agnostic simply means that I'm not convinced that there is a God, but I'm not convinced there isn't. Has nothing to do with judgement, I'm constantly judging religions, because I'm trying to find one that can work for me and my beliefs.

Anyway, we've already been over the rest of that. Sure, I learned how to read and write long before I hit high school, but I actually learned academic things in high school.

 

[tecoyah]

Catholic schools are not that much better when you look at the demographics of the school population. Low income Catholic schools do just as poorly as low income public schools.

And herein...lies truth

 

[Kelzie]

And herein...lies truth

And a person who went to said low income Catholic school. :mrgreen: All the contents of my desk was stolen over spring break and the principle was fired for stealing money from the school. Good times. Needless to say, the schools performance wasn't all that great.

On the other hand, my little brother and sister go to a public elementary school that is doing better than a private school in the same area. Middle to upper class neigborhood with strong parent involvement in the school. Actually, the parents basically run the school with the occasional imput of the principle.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Maybe you should have applied yourself?

Catholic schools are not that much better when you look at the demographics of the school population. Low income Catholic schools do just as poorly as low income public schools.

Ya maybe low income Catholic Schools but that' the whole point the vouchers were supposed to allow for people to sent their kids to better schools. It's always the liberals like the Clinton's who say that public schools are just fine and people shouldn't have a choice, but will they send Chelsea to one? Hell no.

 

[Kelzie]

Ya maybe low income Catholic Schools but that' the whole point the vouchers were supposed to allow for people to sent their kids to better schools. It's always the liberals like the Clinton's who say that public schools are just fine and people shouldn't have a choice, but will they send Chelsea to one? Hell no.

So the parents can drive their kids an hour and a half to a school in a richer district and leave the school 15 minutes away to rot? Brilliant. Of course, then there's all those parents who can't take three hours out of their day to drive their kids around and are forced to send their kids to the close school which has just lost half its funding. Gee, wonder why that hasn't passed yet? :roll:

The Clinton's can send their daughter wherever they want. And for the record, she did go to public school. Until she became the president's daughter. Public schools have to allow media onto their campus. Private schools don't. Not many presidents do send their kids to public because they don't want the media harassing them all the time.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

You are dishonest, or at the least very lazy.

A google search for "9-11 commission al qaeda iraq" gives a bunch of hits, the first being... well, let me just show you.




Reading the article:

"The Sept. 11 commission reported yesterday that it has found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda, challenging one of the Bush administration's main justifications for the war in Iraq.

Along with the contention that Saddam Hussein was stockpiling weapons of mass destruction, President Bush, Vice President Cheney and other top administration officials have often asserted that there were extensive ties between Hussein's government and Osama bin Laden's terrorist network; earlier this year, Cheney said evidence of a link was "overwhelming."

But the report of the commission's staff, based on its access to all relevant classified information, said that there had been contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda but no cooperation. In yesterday's hearing of the panel, formally known as the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, a senior FBI official and a senior CIA analyst concurred with the finding."

Like I said, Iraq and Al-Qaeda got together to talk a couple times, but they never collaborated on anything - they couldn't get along.

Also, this article came out a year after the article you posted did.

Have you read the 9-11 Commission Report? Well I've got a copy of it right in front of me.

Iraq and AlQaeda did have links the report totally ignores the intel found in the weekly standard article that provides the evidence for a collaborative relationship and simply states that no such collaborative relationship existed even though this assertion is not only contradicted by the "Case Closed," article but is, also, contradicted by the commissions own findings for example:

With the Sudanese regime acting as intermediary, Bin Ladin himself met with a senior Iraqi intelligence officer in Khartoum in late 1994 or early 1995. Bin Ladin is said to have asked for space to establish training camps, as well as assistance in procuring weapons, but there is no evidence that Iraq responded to this request.55 As described below, the ensuing years saw additional efforts to establish connections.

The bolded portion is negated by the findings of the weekly standard article "case closed."

In mid-1998, the situation reversed; it was Iraq that reportedly took the ini tiative. In March 1998, after Bin Ladin’s public fatwa against the United States, two al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraqi intelligence. In July, an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with Bin Ladin. Sources reported that one, or perhaps both, of these meetings was apparently arranged through Bin Ladin’s Egyptian deputy, Zawahiri, who had ties of his own to the Iraqis. In 1998, Iraq was under intensifying U.S. pressure, which culminated in a series of large air attacks in December.

Similar meetings between Iraqi officials and Bin Ladin or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban. According to the reporting, Iraqi officials offered Bin Ladin a safe haven in Iraq. Bin Ladin declined, apparently judging that his circumstances in Afghanistan remained more favorable than the Iraqi alternative. The reports describe friendly contacts and indicate some common themes in both sides’ hatred of the United States. But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States.

Again that is negated by the intel found in the Weekly Standard article intel that was totally ignored by the Commission.

Though intelligence gave no clear indication of what might be afoot, some intelligence reports mentioned chemical weapons, pointing toward work at a camp in southern Afghanistan called Derunta. On November 4, 1998, the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York unsealed its indictment of Bin Ladin, charging him with conspiracy to attack U.S. defense installations.The indictment also charged that al Qaeda had allied itself with Sudan, Iran, and Hezbollah.The original sealed indictment had added that al Qaeda had “reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.”109 This passage led Clarke, who for years had read intelligence reports on Iraqi-Sudanese cooperation on chemical weapons, to speculate to Berger that a large Iraqi presence at chemical facilities in Khartoum was “probably a direct result of the Iraq–Al Qida agreement.” Clarke added that VX precursor traces found near al Shifa were the “exact formula used by Iraq.”110 This language about al Qaeda’s “understanding” with Iraq had been dropped, however, when a superseding indictment was filed in November 1998.

Now why the **** was this language dropped what the hell is this superseding indictment? Remember Clarke is the one who has gone around saying that their was no relationship after the Bush administration let him go so why has he changed his opinion????

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

So the parents can drive their kids an hour and a half to a school in a richer district and leave the school 15 minutes away to rot? Brilliant. Of course, then there's all those parents who can't take three hours out of their day to drive their kids around and are forced to send their kids to the close school which has just lost half its funding. Gee, wonder why that hasn't passed yet? :roll:

The Clinton's can send their daughter wherever they want. And for the record, she did go to public school. Until she became the president's daughter. Public schools have to allow media onto their campus. Private schools don't. Not many presidents do send their kids to public because they don't want the media harassing them all the time.

Why would student vouchers take away funding from public schools? If people are paying taxes to pay for education then they damn well should be able to choose for themselves which schools their children can go to.