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North Carolina Dems Depressed?

I don't speak for conservatives but it is important to me because of religion, because of precedence, because of common law. I have no problem with civil unions but leave marriage alone as it is a union between a man and a woman.
You realize this NC Amendment does not allow for civil unions in any way shape or form right? It also does not recognize common law marriages, as you have to be a married man and woman. To be married, you have to get a marriage certificate to be recognized under the law.

Also, Religion is great. Keep it to yourself when it comes to affecting policies in a land where people of all religious beliefs are welcome. Establishing a law based upon what mob rule says because their religion tells them to, while ignoring other religions and other people's beliefs is against the very reasons why so many people got on boats and floated over here to begin with. As for "precedence". Things change, because a mob rule of people cannot accept change does not mean the government should limit the freedoms of individuals who are "different".




I see no benefit of SSM to society at all.
Do you see any benefit to preventing it?



Mob rule is violating the law, and your outrage over the American electorate approving something you don't agree with is far from Mob rule.
It is when the mob elects to limit the freedoms of the minority. When they elect to limit the freedoms of the "outsiders", "outcasts", "different", people. That isn't America.



Guess 61% of the voters in your state are a mob because they disagree with you. There is no discrimination as you can marry anyone of the opposite sex which apparently you did. where is the discrimination?
No, 61% of the primary election voters are a mob because they voted to limit the freedoms of a minority via an amendment that has no societal benefit other than not having to see those evil evil sinning gays be happy.
 
Mob rule? LOL, I don't see OWS crowds in N.C. nor would I consider 61% of the people exercising their Constitutional rights to be a mob. Guess anything that you disagree with that is supported by others constitutes a mob

Pure Democracy is a mob rule.

Pure Democracy is whatever the majority wants, the majority gets, regardless of its effect on the freedoms of minority individuals.

That is what this Amendment is.
 
Mob rule? LOL, I don't see OWS crowds in N.C. nor would I consider 61% of the people exercising their Constitutional rights to be a mob. Guess anything that you disagree with that is supported by others constitutes a mob
So con, just to be clear, back before the civil rights bills, you would have been in favor of a segregation vote since the majority wanted it, say in Mississippi?
 
So con, just to be clear, back before the civil rights bills, you would have been in favor of a segregation vote since the majority wanted it, say in Mississippi?

were it not for Republicans there would be no civil rights legislation
 
You realize this NC Amendment does not allow for civil unions in any way shape or form right? It also does not recognize common law marriages, as you have to be a married man and woman. To be married, you have to get a marriage certificate to be recognized under the law.

Also, Religion is great. Keep it to yourself when it comes to affecting policies in a land where people of all religious beliefs are welcome. Establishing a law based upon what mob rule says because their religion tells them to, while ignoring other religions and other people's beliefs is against the very reasons why so many people got on boats and floated over here to begin with. As for "precedence". Things change, because a mob rule of people cannot accept change does not mean the government should limit the freedoms of individuals who are "different".




Do you see any benefit to preventing it?



It is when the mob elects to limit the freedoms of the minority. When they elect to limit the freedoms of the "outsiders", "outcasts", "different", people. That isn't America.



No, 61% of the primary election voters are a mob because they voted to limit the freedoms of a minority via an amendment that has no societal benefit other than not having to see those evil evil sinning gays be happy.

I support the vote of the people overwhelmingly supporting the Amendment. How you can call the electorate a mob is beyond me. That makes the rest of your post irrelevant
 
Even if true. So F'ing what! they are now trying to limit rights of law abiding citizens.

And what law would that be? Looks like marriage is defined in N.C. as between a man and a woman. That is the law
 
were it not for Republicans there would be no civil rights legislation
You did not answer the question. We can get into the civil rights bill voting record later, but answer the question first.

back before the civil rights bills, you would have been in favor of a segregation vote since the majority wanted it, say in Mississippi?
 
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Pure Democracy is a mob rule.

Pure Democracy is whatever the majority wants, the majority gets, regardless of its effect on the freedoms of minority individuals.

That is what this Amendment is.

Voters aren't mobs. Apparently all laws that you don't agree with should be repealed. Without laws you have chaos and no discipline. Freedom comes with responsibility and freedom isn't being restricted by the definition of marriage
 
I support the vote of the people overwhelmingly supporting the Amendment. How you can call the electorate a mob is beyond me. That makes the rest of your post irrelevant

Im sorry, All I heard was, "Wahh Wahh The Majority Wins Wahh Wahh"

What a freaking non-response.



So, lets recap Conservative.

I say "A majority (mob) should never be able to vote away the rights and freedoms of another group it dislikes"
You say "Majority wins regardless of what it is"

I ask, "What does society gain, or what governmental purpose does it serve to deny equal rights of marriage, union, partnership being legally recognized?"
You say, "....... *crickets* ....... *crickets*....... The majority WINS!!! RAWWWR! YOU SUCK YOU SUCK MAJORITY WINS NYA NYAAAA"
 
Race is in the Constitution, marriage isn't
Anti discrimination laws were in the civil rights bill, you are going in circles.

just answer the question so I can have a better understanding of your position.


back before the civil rights bills, you would have been in favor of a segregation vote since the majority wanted it, say in Mississippi?
 
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And what law would that be? Looks like marriage is defined in N.C. as between a man and a woman. That is the law

Next time a Priest, Minister, Monk, gay couple get tossed in the clink for performing a gay marriage or getting married in NC let me know. In the mean time law abiding citizens are being denied:


There are 1,138 benefits, rights and protections provided on the basis of marital status in Federal law. [1] Because the Defense of Marriage Act defines "marriage" as only a legal union between one man and one woman, same-sex couples - even if legally married in their state - will not be considered spouses for purposes of federal law.

The following is a summary of several categories of federal laws contingent upon marital status.



Social Security

Social Security provides the sole means of support for some elderly Americans. All working Americans contribute to this program through payroll tax, and receive payments upon retirement. Surviving spouses of working Americans are eligible to receive Social Security payments. A surviving spouse caring for a deceased employee’s minor child is also eligible for an additional support payment. Surviving spouse and surviving parent benefits are denied to gay and lesbian Americans because they cannot marry. Thus, a lesbian couple who contributes an equal amount to Social Security over their lifetime as a married couple would receive drastically unequal benefits, as set forth below.

Family Eligible for Surviving Child Benefits Eligible for Surviving Parent Benefits

Family #1: Married husband and wife, both are biological parents of the child
Eligible for Surviving Child Benefits
Eligible for Surviving Parent Benefits
Family #2: Same-sex couple, deceased worker was the biological parent or adoptive of the child
Eligible for Surviving Child Benefits
Not Eligible for Surviving Parent Benefits
Family #3: Same-sex couple, deceased worker was not the biological parent nor able to adopt child through second-parent adoption
Not Eligible for Surviving Child Benefits
Not Eligible for Surviving Parent Benefits


Tax

According to the GAO report, as of 1997 there were 179 tax provisions that took marital status into account. The following is a limited sample of such tax provisions.

Tax on Employer-Provided Health Benefits to Domestic Partners

In growing numbers, both public and private employers across the country have made the business decision to provide domestic partner benefits in order to promoted fairness and equality in the workplace. For example, as of August 2003, 198 (almost forty percent) of the Fortune 500 companies and 173 state and local governments nationwide provide health insurance benefits to the domestic partners of their employees. Federal tax law has not kept up with corporate and governmental who take advantage of it are taxed inequitably.

As policymakers have put an increasing emphasis on delivering health coverage through the tax code and as the cost of healthcare has once again begun to skyrocket, the current inequities in the tax code have placed a burden on the employers who provide healthcare coverage to domestic partners and on the employees who depend upon these benefits to provide security for their families.

1. Burden on Employees
Employers who provide health benefits to their employees typically pay a portion of the premium – if not the entire premium. Currently, the Code provides that the employer’s contribution of the premium for health insurance for an employee’s spouse is excluded from the employee’s taxable income. An employer’s contribution for the domestic partner’s coverage, however, is included in the employee’s taxable income as a fringe benefit.

2. Burden on Employers
An employer’s payroll tax liability is calculated based on their employees’ taxable incomes. When contributions for domestic partner benefits are included in employees’ incomes, employers pay higher payroll taxes. This provision also places an administrative burden on employers by requiring them to identify those employees utilizing their benefits for a partner rather than a spouse. Employers must then calculate the portion of their contribution that is attributable to the partner, and create and maintain a separate payroll function for these employees’ income tax withholding and payroll tax. Thus, the employers are penalized for making a sound business decision that contributes to stability in the workforce.

Inequitable Treatment of Children Raised in LGBT Households
Recent data shows that at least 1 million children are being raised by same-sex couples in the United States. The Code contains competing definitions of “child.” Certain provisions of the Code defining child penalize for the marital status of their parents and caregivers.

1. Earned Income Tax Credit
Eligibility for the earned income tax credit (EITC) is based in part upon the number of “qualifying” children in the taxpayer’s household. See 26 USC § 32. The definition of qualifying child under this provision includes only a child who is the taxpayer’s (a) biological child or descendent; (b) stepchild of the taxpayer; or (c) adopted child. Certain children of lesbian and gay couples are disadvantaged by this provision. For exampled, a taxpayer and their partner domestic are jointly raising the partner’s biological child. The taxpayer works full-time and the child’s legal parent stays home to care for the child. The state in which the taxpayer resides does not permit them to adopt through second-parent adoption or to marry the partner and become the child’s step-parent. This working family is therefore ineligible for an adjustment of the EITC, and therefore has decreased the resources to devote to the child’s care.

2. Head of Household Status
Heads of household, as defined by 26 U.S.C. § 2, are eligible for an increased standard deduction that, among other things, provides taxpayers with increased funds to care for their dependents. The “limitations” section of this provision explicitly denies the benefit of head-of-household status to taxpayers supporting non-biological, non-adopted children. Thus, a gay or lesbian taxpayer who supports his or her partner’s child (and who is ineligible to adopt the child) has fewer post-tax dollars with which to support the child.

3. Child Tax Credit
Taxpayers meeting income eligibility requirements are entitled to a credit against tax for qualifying children in their households. This provision limits the child tax credit to children who meet the relationship test set fourth in the earned income tax provisions, § 32(c)(3)(B). As set forth above, § 32 does not include children of a taxpayer’s domestic partner if the children are not related to the taxpayer biologically or through adoption.

All three of these inequities have the effect of penalizing families who choose to have one parent in the work force and the other caring for the children full-time. In addition, they disadvantage such couples and their children by limiting the choice of which parent will be a full-time caregiver. Although similarly situated married couples may choose which parent will fulfill that role without consequence, lesbian and gay couples, as well as other unmarried couples, face negative tax consequences for the same decision.

Tax on Gain from the Sale of the Taxpayer’s Principal Residence

Under Internal Revenue Code §121, a single taxpayer may exclude up to $250,000 of profit due to the sale of his or her personal principal residence from taxable income. Married couples filing jointly may exclude up to $500,000 on the sale of their home. Lesbian and gay couples, who are not permitted to marry or to file jointly, are therefore taxed on all gain above $250,000, creating a large tax penalty compared to similarly situated married couples.

Estate Tax
Internal Revenue Code § 2056 exempts amounts transferred to a surviving spouse from the decedent’s taxable estate. For same-sex couples who are legally barred from marriage, this exemption is not available, creating an inequity in taxation.

Taxation of Retirement Savings
Under current law, when a retirement plan participant dies, plan benefits must be distributed in a lump sum or remain in the plan to be distributed in accordance with the minimum distribution requirements of § 401(a)(9). This problem does not exist if the beneficiary is the deceased participant’s surviving spouse, because the surviving spouse may transfer plan benefits to an IRA or a retirement plan in which he or she is a participant. This entitlement is valuable because (a) it allows the surviving spouse to defer taxation of the proceeds, often until the survivor is in a lower tax bracket; and (b) it protects the surviving spouse from being forced to withdraw from an investment program when its value is depressed. Because gay and lesbian couples are treated as strangers under federal tax and pension law, they cannot transfer plan benefits without incurring significant penalties, and do not have the flexibility to withdraw funds when they choose. The example below demonstrates this inequity:

Michelle and Sarah have been in a committed relationship for over 10 years. They have registered as domestic partners under the laws of the District of Columbia. Throughout their relationship, they have taken every legal step available to formalize their relationship and protect themselves, legally and financially as domestic partners. Michelle participated in her employer’s 401(k) retirement plans, naming Sarah as the primary beneficiary. Sarah purchased an individual retirement account (IRA). While driving to her job, Michelle is killed in a car accident. Sarah does not have the option to transfer Michelle’s 401(k) funds into her existing IRA because, under current law, only a “spouse” may roll over 401(k) and inherited IRA plans upon the death of a plan participant. Sarah must then take the entire proceeds of the inherited 401(k) in a lump sum and pay taxes on them immediately at a much higher rate, rather than rolling it over into her own name tax free as a surviving spouse can do.



Family and Medical Leave

The Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) guarantees family and medical leave to employees to care for parents, children or spouses. As currently interpreted, this law does not provide leave to care for a domestic partner or the domestic partner’s family member. Family and medical leave should be a benefit for all American workers.

continued at the link.

An Overview of Federal Rights and Protections Granted to Married Couples | Resources | Human Rights Campaign
 
Voters aren't mobs. Apparently all laws that you don't agree with should be repealed. Without laws you have chaos and no discipline. Freedom comes with responsibility and freedom isn't being restricted by the definition of marriage

How many times do you have to be informed....

T H I S
I S
N O T
S I M P L Y
A
D E F I N I T I O N
O F
M A R R I A G E
A M E N D M E N T
 
Im sorry, All I heard was, "Wahh Wahh The Majority Wins Wahh Wahh"

What a freaking non-response.



So, lets recap Conservative.

I say "A majority (mob) should never be able to vote away the rights and freedoms of another group it dislikes"
You say "Majority wins regardless of what it is"

I ask, "What does society gain, or what governmental purpose does it serve to deny equal rights of marriage, union, partnership being legally recognized?"
You say, "....... *crickets* ....... *crickets*....... The majority WINS!!! RAWWWR! YOU SUCK YOU SUCK MAJORITY WINS NYA NYAAAA"

Wrong, I don't call the electorate mob and in N.C. 61% of the people voted for the Amendment. You don't like it, fight it to the SC. What you are going to do is force the states to press for a Constitutional Amendment and you aren't going to like the outcome. Seems you just like laws that you want to support
 
Anti discrimination laws were in the civil rights bill, you are going in circles.

just answer the question so I can have a better understanding of your position.


back before the civil rights bills, you would have been in favor of a segregation vote since the majority wanted it, say in Mississippi?

My position is marriage is a state responsibility not a federal one and that marriage defined by the states are state laws. You don't like the law and want to marry one of your own sex move to a state that allows it
 
Wrong, I don't call the electorate mob and in N.C. 61% of the people voted for the Amendment. You don't like it, fight it to the SC. What you are going to do is force the states to press for a Constitutional Amendment and you aren't going to like the outcome. Seems you just like laws that you want to support

By this logic you would have also supported anti miscegenation laws since the electorate supported them.
 
Wrong, I don't call the electorate mob and in N.C. 61% of the people voted for the Amendment. You don't like it, fight it to the SC. What you are going to do is force the states to press for a Constitutional Amendment and you aren't going to like the outcome. Seems you just like laws that you want to support
That is the same argument used before the civil rights bills.

Back before the civil rights bills, you would have been in favor of a segregation vote since the majority wanted it, say in Mississippi?
 
Wrong, I don't call the electorate mob and in N.C. 61% of the people voted for the Amendment. You don't like it, fight it to the SC. What you are going to do is force the states to press for a Constitutional Amendment and you aren't going to like the outcome. Seems you just like laws that you want to support

Its not about what I do or do not support.

I am not for laws with a basis in governing morality.

I am not for laws that deny freedom to minority groups because the majority voted away those rights.


I feel there is no place in the U.S. Constitution, nor should there be a place in any State Constitution, for governing morality, especially when the basis of what is "moral" and "immoral" is rooted in Religious literature.
 
How many times do you have to be informed....

T H I S
I S
N O T
S I M P L Y
A
D E F I N I T I O N
O F
M A R R I A G E
A M E N D M E N T

The marriage amendment passed in N.C. with 61% of the vote. You don't like the outcome fight it to the SC
 
So then it is a state issue not a Federal issue. Thank you

Except for the fact that states must abide by the 14th Amendment as well which says any state institution must apply to every group equally, unless the state has a certain level of reason that it furthers a certain level of state interest to have laws not apply equally.

So that means you can't have one speed limit for old people and one for young people without being able to show how doing so reasonably furthers some state interest.

So far, no state has been able to show any legitimate state interest being furthered by denying people to marry another of the same sex while still allowing any person to marry almost any other person of the opposite sex, without regard to whether they will be able to procreate with each other. And there is nothing harmful about same sex relationships themselves.
 
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Its not about what I do or do not support.

I am not for laws with a basis in governing morality.

I am not for laws that deny freedom to minority groups because the majority voted away those rights.


I feel there is no place in the U.S. Constitution, nor should there be a place in any State Constitution, for governing morality, especially when the basis of what is "moral" and "immoral" is rooted in Religious literature.

Point taken, the Amendment in your state passed with 61% of the vote. You don't like it, take it to the S.C.
 
Except for the fact that states must abide by the 14th Amendment as well which says any state institution must apply to every group equally, unless the state has a certain level of reason that it furthers a certain level of state interest to have laws not apply equally.

So that means you can't have one speed limit for old people and one for young people without being able to show how doing so reasonably furthers some state interest.

So far, no state has been able to show any legitimate state interest being furthered by denying people to marry another of the same sex.

You don't like the law, take it to the SC and let them decide and then watch the states promote a Constitutional Amendment. With all the issues in this country the passion for this one is totally and completely misguided and out of touch with reality. Marriage is defined as a union between a man and a woman. YOu want to marry someone of the same sex, it appears you are in the right state for that. If not, then move.
 
My position is marriage is a state responsibility not a federal one and that marriage defined by the states are state laws. You don't like the law and want to marry one of your own sex move to a state that allows it
You still won't answer a very simple question. If the voters of a state vote in the majority for an immoral law, you would still support it since majority rules.


Back before the civil rights bills, you would have been in favor of a segregation vote since the majority wanted it, say in Mississippi?
 
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