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North American Video Game Crash of 1983

Incorrect. You are cherry picking meddling as to when government intervention fails rather then government intervention as a whole.

You miss the point.

I say "meddling", and you come out with this CRAP about Streets and Roads and saying I am cherry picking...

NO, I'm not, you are off on tangents that are NOT RELEVANT.
 
You miss the point.

On the contrary, you refuse to address mine.

I say "meddling", and you come out with this CRAP about Streets and Roads and saying I am cherry picking...

Because you are cherry picking. When the government meddles and you like it, you don't call it meddling. When it does and you don't like it, that's meddling. How is that not cherry picking?

Massive central planning of the highway system is something you like. Yet you refuse to include it in meddling. Massive government spending during the buildup to WWII was HUGE amounts of government meddling. I've never seen you decry that.

You cherry pick whatever you don't like to be meddling and exclude whatever you do like.

Picking and choosing what you want to be declared meddling is cherry picking.

NO, I'm not, you are off on tangents that are NOT RELEVANT.

Proving you constantly wrong isn't a tangent.

So, you going to answer my question:

Which is it? Illiterate or a liar?

How about you take my advice and stop cherry picking? When you decry government interference, specify the specific act rather then making blanket statements. Perhaps maybe you're arguments will finally stop losing?
 
NO streets and roads is a FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT. That's MAINTAINING.
INFRASTRUCTURE!

Telling a business how to function to meet a political goal for a politician or group (party) is meddling.

See the difference?

Now, you haven't proven anything other then the fact you are stuck on the minutia of your own argument.

Specify?

Seriously are you that incapable of keeping up that you need me to spell out when I say "government meddling" on a topic that you cannot COMPREHEND what's being discussed? We talk about say the Video Game Market, as here, and you think I'm making a blanket statement about all government action in economic matters from the roads to the size of holes in swiss cheese to wages and tariffs.... WOW you seriously do don't you?


My arguments only lose you OC... cause you cannot keep up with the rest of us obviously. You're the only one that gets confused. Perhaps you should avoid economic discussions if it is that confusing a topic for you.


Massive central planning of the highway system is something you like. Yet you refuse to include it in meddling. Massive government spending during the buildup to WWII was HUGE amounts of government meddling. I've never seen you decry that.

You cherry pick whatever you don't like to be meddling and exclude whatever you do like.
Government is supposed too, and I've said this over and over and over again, SET THE TABLE for economic success. So I've addressed this before, you refuse to admit it.

Why would I get upset at the Government for FIGHTING A WAR? That's in the Constitution... that's the Governments job make sure if we gotta fight a war we win... WWII required... the entire country to get involved to win it...

(now if you are talking about FDR "New Deal" BS that's a whole different discussion now isn't it. OR is that another topic that's too hard for you to understand there is a difference?)

Damn imagine that.

You THINK you're witty and cool, you THINK you have something on me OC. No you're just screaming and yelling about a non-point and are the only one that thinks you are "winning" any argument with me on this.

So either admit, you've been wrong the whole time trying to hound me on this, cause you have been, or leave it alone cause... frankly I'm trying to have discussions on issues that matter, not please your inability to stay on topic and comprehend the discussion at hand.
 
NO streets and roads is a FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT. That's MAINTAINING.
INFRASTRUCTURE!

Which is meddling in the market. A free market would have private forces produce, build, maintain and replace roads. That isn't what happens here. We have massive central planning that dictates which roads are built, where by whom and to specification. Eisenhower established one of the largest central planned government projects in US history. But you like to cherry pick and say that's not meddling despite clear intervention into the market system of demand and supply.

Thanks for proving my point. You declare what you don't like to be meddling and what you do like not to be meddling despite both actions on the part of government to intervene into the free market. In developing countries we don't see government meddling in road systems, it's one reason why corporations are often hesitant to offshore as they often have to pay for capital improvements. In the US, the government intervenes into the market and does it itself rather then letting the market produce the desired amounts of roads, where, when, and to what specification. The railroad system of America is a good example of where government didn't intervene and meddle, letting corporations and certain individuals turn into robber barons by ponying up the capital, building it themselves and maintaining it out of their own pockets. The current road system of America is a massive intervention into the free market.

Infrastructure is meddling. You just cherry pick to suit your poorly designed arguments.

Telling a business how to function to meet a political goal for a politician or group (party) is meddling.

See the difference?

There is no difference. Government intervention into the free market is meddling. You just declare what you like to be not meddling and declare what you don't like to be meddling. Explain to me how government regulations on road safety, grades, material etc is not meddling, especially when it affects interstate commerce and huge amounts of people. You won't because you cherry pick. If you like it, it's not meddling. If you don't it is meddling. It's kind of like activist judges. You declare judges who's decisions you disagree with to be activists, yet you don't for judges who rule how you like. Actual Constitutional relevance is irrelevant. That's cherry picking.

Now, you haven't proven anything other then the fact you are stuck on the minutia of your own argument.

Lol. Keep thinking that way. And you'll keeping losing arguments.

Seriously are you that incapable of keeping up that you need me to spell out when I say "government meddling" on a topic that you cannot COMPREHEND what's being discussed?

Where have I shown I haven't comprehended the subject? And you have a long history of doing exactly what I have stated.

We talk about say the Video Game Market, as here, and you think I'm making a blanket statement about all government action in economic matters from the roads to the size of holes in swiss cheese to wages and tariffs.... WOW you seriously do don't you?

Actually I was pointing out again that you constantly fail to seperate what I have stated. Cherry picking. If it's government action you like in the market, not meddling. If it is not, that's meddling. Furthermore, you are quite wrong on central planning, which I see you have abandoned. Furthermore, I'm still waiting for the answer, are you illiterate or a liar?

My arguments only lose you OC... cause you cannot keep up with the rest of us obviously. You're the only one that gets confused. Perhaps you should avoid economic discussions if it is that confusing a topic for you.

HAHAHHAHAha. Says the one who abandons threads extremely quickly. I pointed out in another economic thread that your post on gasoline taxes was quite false as the firms who are making record profits are largely not involved at the time of gasoline sales to the public where the taxes are heavy. You fled that thread after I pointed out you were peddling misleading 'facts.' Furthermore, I've stated several times how the GSA act repealed by the GOP led to the current mess yet you still seem to love to blame just the Democrats.

Rich coming from you.

Government is supposed too, and I've said this over and over and over again, SET THE TABLE for economic success. So I've addressed this before, you refuse to admit it.

Where? :rofl

Why would I get upset at the Government for FIGHTING A WAR? That's in the Constitution... that's the Governments job make sure if we gotta fight a war we win... WWII required... the entire country to get involved to win it...

Thanks for proving my point. If you like the action, it's not meddling. WWII production orders severely interfered with normal free market operations. Furthermore, the mandatory conservation of specific materials like nylon and steel as well as beef and pork was massive meddling in the free market system. Nothing about that on your part.

You cherry pick what gets to be put into meddling and what doesn't. That is pretty obvious to everyone. I don't see you decrying the GOP's desire to meddle with tax rates. That's meddling in the free market. C-h-e-r-r-y P-i-c-k-i-n-g.

(now if you are talking about FDR "New Deal" BS that's a whole different discussion now isn't it. OR is that another topic that's too hard for you to understand there is a difference?)

If you bothered to do any work at all in any subject of your life, you would have noticed I was on that thread too. I unlike you, don't rely on such tactics. Specifically that article about the alleged failure of the New Deal leaves out some rather important discussion points, largely the issue of free trade. Given how integrated the US was during the 20s, no discussion on the lack of free trade undermines its position. The US was reliant of a direct 20% of its economy on trade. Multipliers of indirect spending could possibly have the economy as a whole of 60% reliant on trade. No discussion of that is extremely suspect. But you wouldn't know anything about that aspect would you? :rofl

Damn imagine that. See above. :mrgreen:

You THINK you're witty and cool, you THINK you have something on me OC. No you're just screaming and yelling about a non-point and are the only one that thinks you are "winning" any argument with me on this.

So either admit, you've been wrong the whole time trying to hound me on this, cause you have been, or leave it alone cause... frankly I'm trying to have discussions on issues that matter, not please your inability to stay on topic and comprehend the discussion at hand.

Blah, blah, blah. I'm not the cherry picker.

How about you admit that central planning in history has worked, you admit that you cherry pick what is defined as "meddling" and you actually admit that the GOP repealed key aspects of the GSA?

Not going to happen. You never admit you're ever wrong on anything.

So, you going to answer my question:

Which is it? Illiterate or a liar?
 
I was responding to your statement about regulation being the reason Japanese firms won the consol wars up until 2006, which is false. It was industry innovation, regardless of the regulations allowed at the time (unless of course they would create a black market).

But how can innovation take priority in a market that is flooded? (it doesn't).

The market collapsed, then and only then did Japan have an opening. And then and only then did innovation matter. And they MAINTAINED that market via self-regulation, because they had the power in that market. And they themselves had not simiarly collapsed...uh oh, due to having self-regulated during the time before the u.s. collapse.

If an aspect of industry innovation is self-regulation let's be specific and call a spade a spade.
 
NO streets and roads is a FUNCTION OF GOVERNMENT. That's MAINTAINING.
INFRASTRUCTURE!
Yet all Markets are also created, and maintained by government. In all industrialized nations, as far as I know, in all of recorded history.

And also each government is different, in some the populace has little control/visibility, in some they have far more control/visibility. In some they have elected representatives, in some it's for life terms.

No different than any other infrastructure, not sure what you're referring to.

Telling a business how to function to meet a political goal for a politician or group (party) is meddling
No more so than a business meddles putting lead in paint in baby toys affects my child.

They meddle, I meddle, we all meddle, and lead metal in baby toys is still bad isn't it? Meddling is IRRELEVANT. It's why/what/who that matters. if you just throw up your hands and repeatedly state "crap happens", and "government shouldn't meddle", it's not really engaging in the discussion.
 
Yes, but regulation is a matter for companies, not governments in an arena like this. Video Games are NOT an isolated market, video games are bigger then hollywood.

At the time it wasn't anywhere near the video game industry today, and I'd believe either way one segment of the entertainment industry is far easier to recover from than the finance/real-estate. By orders of magnitude.

Are you suggesting that the video-game industry at that time was on par with how the financial industry is tied to the global economy present day? If not, then drop it.

Regulation is a matter for government, companies, and individuals. All three have a role to play, always have, always will.

That's life, sometimes ****e happens.
Irrelevant. We're discussing policy/problems/solutions, what works, what does not, through observing reality/history.

Claiming "crap happens", is the same as claiming you do not know, or not commenting.

Life is full of risks.
Trying to centralize control of the markets is... utterly impossible and a dangerous mindset. History teaches this over and over again.
Yet we have and continue to, find numerous ways to mitigate risk, and to put risk to work for our society. So "life is full of risks" is another non-comment.

No one suggesting centralizing a market. Markets should have good rules/boundaries in place that provide a playing field for individuals to go crazy in...up to a limit that prevents one bozo from destroying the entire market. The human race didn't get too far without a survival instinct, not sure why you'd design a market without one. We're not discussing government micromanaging anything. We're talking about boundary conditions.

To put it simply, you are not free to take out the global economic market because it tramples on numerous others freedoms. They would simply shoot the offender years back, now we instead use regulation and very mild punishment for infraction. It's really no different than someone blowing up every computer system in every major financial institution and their backups. I mean, if crap happens, let's just flush it all? Makes no sense.

It's unavoidable that things can go bad, it's worse when it's pushed and abetted by government (think Freddi and Fannie and the housing market)
Very silly argument, really.
Government cannot run anything right, you want to trust the economy to it?Seriously?
Unavoidable that things can go bad? Sounds innovative.

I want the market to function without the meddling of government, which is like kryptonite to the system.
Government is no more kryptonite to the system than are big businesses, or individuals, or foreigners, or labor unions, or corrupt politicians...can be. They are also all components of markets, and each can be both good/bad/neutral depending on what they do.

It's a system. Government (in our case the people, and elected representatives, and political parties) plays a role, individuals play a role, business plays a role. Nothing new here.
 
But how can innovation take priority in a market that is flooded? (it doesn't).

The market collapsed, then and only then did Japan have an opening. And then and only then did innovation matter. And they MAINTAINED that market via self-regulation, because they had the power in that market. And they themselves had not simiarly collapsed...uh oh, due to having self-regulated during the time before the u.s. collapse.

If an aspect of industry innovation is self-regulation let's be specific and call a spade a spade.

Innovation was happening here in the US. Overall computer chip technology got better, software coding became more creative, and US gaming companies dug their own trench in the market (EA, Rockstar).

What you are describing is a recapitalization of the market, something that needs to happen in every industry to prevent weaklings from epic failure.
 
Innovation was happening here in the US. Overall computer chip technology got better, software coding became more creative, and US gaming companies dug their own trench in the market (EA, Rockstar).

That's interesting but they lost the console market due to well-known bad business practice, and good business practice was then re-introduced into that market by the Japanese. Whether U.S. companies innovated around the console industry owned by the U.S., or the Japanese, makes the innovation argument irrelevant. It just so happens they innovated around a foreign dominate console market, they would have done the same around a U.S. dominated market.

We already knew how to prevent that, we taught it to the Japanese (and we learned it also in part from other nations).

If innovation = re-inventing the wheel, I believe we have a semantic issue.

What you are describing is a recapitalization of the market, something that needs to happen in every industry to prevent weaklings from epic failure.

Hand waiving, that's the argument from nature which is irrelevant, because last I checked humans run the markets via choice.

What is described is a known bad way to run a market, and a known good way to run a market, both tried and tested in numerous historic examples. In the then-fledgling video-game sub-segment of the entertainment industry, I agree government shouldn't be involved if we do not intend to protect American markets (which arguable we should have been aware enough to protect).

But in any industry with higher stakes, be it health related or linked to the entire global economy (as we know banking/finance is), you institute those rules of the market, ELSE, you collapse it. Collapse is natural, inefficient, and entirely preventable in many cases. When it rains it's natural for me to get wet, so I have the very marginal intellect to know to get out of the rain, use a raincoat, and/or an umbrella, and to check the forecast.

The funny thing is that the regulations are nothing more than codified good business practice. Making game makers put skin in the game to ensure they are serious about the game they are making? Sounds like risk/reward put into practice.
 
Which is meddling in the market. A free market would have private forces produce, build, maintain and replace roads.
... you're trying to say that because I believe the government has some duty to maintaining infrastructure like roads, I'm supporting government "meddling" because it isn't 100% free market...


Right OC.. I was gonna bother to reread your comments, but I really don't see the point.... you made me laugh so hard I have to take a break.

That isn't what happens here. We have massive central planning that dictates which roads are built, where by whom and to specification. Eisenhower established one of the largest central planned government projects in US history. But you like to cherry pick and say that's not meddling despite clear intervention into the market system of demand and supply.
Ya know, this conversation would have some chance if you didn't have a serious flaw of mistaking government promoting industry, commerce and military needs as well as logistics as meddling in the free market. The free market COULD build all the roads, but that would run into a myriad of other problems ranging from costs, to public safety. Has very little to do with teh "free market" and everything to do with the needs of all.

Did you know that part of the reason Eisenhower backed the highway system was to put landing strips all over the country for B-52 bombers if the need arose? I bet you didn't know that.

Thanks for proving my point. You declare what you don't like to be meddling and what you do like not to be meddling despite both actions on the part of government to intervene into the free market.
You confuse government action with the actions of the free markets... mostly because it supports your argument to twist it so.

In developing countries we don't see government meddling in road systems, it's one reason why corporations are often hesitant to offshore as they often have to pay for capital improvements.
Most developing countries don't have governments capable of HANDLING roads, and corparations do so for their own benefit. :doh
In the US, the government intervenes into the market and does it itself rather then letting the market produce the desired amounts of roads, where, when, and to what specification. The railroad system of America is a good example of where government didn't intervene and meddle, letting corporations and certain individuals turn into robber barons by ponying up the capital, building it themselves and maintaining it out of their own pockets. The current road system of America is a massive intervention into the free market.
Government meddling in the Rail Roads: Amtrack. The biggest waste of money on the rails. I'm not gonna go back and argue over barons of a bygone era, that's silly and not the point.

Infrastructure is meddling. You just cherry pick to suit your poorly designed arguments.

No, it's a function of government to ensure many things.


Maybe later I'll come back and finish this, right now I don't have the time.
 
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