Non-separation of church and State.

[bomberfox]

1) Wow, you found four of the founding fathers to quote. One of which (Jefferson) is hideously overrated.
2) They're dead. No one cares anymore. A dead dog is greater than a living lion.

I notice you only quote them with reverence whem it suits you. Jesus is dead if he ever existed.

 

[Lursa]

1) Wow, you found four of the founding fathers to quote. One of which (Jefferson) is hideously overrated.
2) They're dead. No one cares anymore. A dead dog is greater than a living lion.

"Better a living dog than a dead lion" is the expression, from scripture :roll:

Ecclesiastes 9:4

You screwed the pooch on that one. Your use doesnt even make sense.

This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa

 

[Lisa]

I don’t think there should be a separation. Our country was founded on religion. It would help unite our country as well as restore morals and values.

Hypothetically, if your claim is true then why did both James Madison and Thomas Jeffersons demand that there be a separation of church and state that is the Establishment Clause?

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States," Madison wrote, and he declared, "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States."

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes (Letter to von Humboldt, 1813).
In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own (Letter to H. Spafford, 1814).

How can we all have equal religious freedom as well as the right not to believe if we permit the state to enforce the moral beliefs of any religion? Which sect gets enforced because there are many Christian sects and they do not agree on anything except that Jesus was the son of god. How do you plan to prevent very violent religious wars between the sects that have brought down many governments?

 

[Lisa]

"Better a living dog than a dead lion" is the expression, from scripture :roll:

Ecclesiastes 9:4

You screwed the pooch on that one. Your use doesnt even make sense.

Dayton apparently believes that we should willfully ignore his use of Nazi symbolism as an avatar when he wants to use the state to enforce religious morality? My irony meter just exploded like an H-bomb.

 

[Dayton3]

I hate to ask, but who is the “living lion”?

me of course.

 

[Dayton3]

"Better a living dog than a dead lion" is the expression, from scripture :roll:

Ecclesiastes 9:4

You screwed the pooch on that one. Your use doesnt even make sense.

Sorry. Even the brilliant among us make mistakes. Thanks for correcting it.

 

[Lursa]

Sorry. Even the brilliant among us make mistakes. Thanks for correcting it.

I'll let you know when I come across someone 'brilliant' here on the forum.

You however, needed the correction anyway.

This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa

 

[AmNat]

I don’t think there should be a separation. Our country was founded on religion. It would help unite our country as well as restore morals and values.

"Separation of church and state" is a lie. All states have an official ideology. Ours happens to be liberalism. Liberals believe that liberalism just is the truth, so they see state endorsement of liberalism as being categorically different from state endorsement of theistic religion. I think liberalism is a pack of lies, so I'd rather be governed by a religious state than a liberal one.

 

[Lisa]

"Separation of church and state" is a lie. All states have an official ideology. Ours happens to be liberalism. Liberals believe that liberalism just is the truth, so they see state endorsement of liberalism as being categorically different from state endorsement of theistic religion. I think liberalism is a pack of lies.

Please explain how liberalism is a theistic religious belief. I'm a liberal and I'm both an atheist and a borderline anarchist.

so I'd rather be governed by a religious state than a liberal one

Such as Saudi or Iran? Does living until the boot of ISIL sound like a good idea to you, or is it only your religious beliefs that you want the state to enforce?

 

[AmNat]

Please explain how liberalism is an atheistic religious belief. I'm a liberal and I'm both an atheist and a borderline anarchist.

Liberals generally have a salvation narrative, in which Secular Democracy rescued humanity from the darkness of Tyranny and Superstition. They generally believe in the necessity of constantly guarding against demonic forces (e.g. White Privilege, the Patriarchy, Nazis). They consider it obvious that their sacred institutions (e.g. the Free Press, various pseudo-academic disciplines) should enjoy state funding and/or special legal privileges. And they become enraged when exposed to ideas contrary to liberalism.

As mentioned, this is all very normal. Every society and every state has official beliefs.

Such as Saudi or Iran? Does living until the boot of ISIL sound like a good idea to you, or is it only your religious beliefs that you want the state to enforce?

Islam and liberalism are both political religions (that is, achieving earthly power is their explicit goal), and I'm not fond of either. Though Islam is less ridiculous than liberalism, at this point anyway, and the Muslims states are justified in resisting liberalism.

 

[Lisa]

Liberals generally have a salvation narrative, in which Secular Democracy rescued humanity from the darkness of Tyranny and Superstition. They generally believe in the necessity of constantly guarding against demonic forces (e.g. White Privilege, the Patriarchy, Nazis). They consider it obvious that their sacred institutions (e.g. the Free Press, various pseudo-academic disciplines) should enjoy state funding and/or special legal privileges. And they become enraged when exposed to ideas contrary to liberalism.

As mentioned, this is all very normal. Every society and every state has official beliefs.

Emotional libertarian strawman nonsense.


Do you support white privilege, patriarchy, and nazis?

Islam and liberalism are both political religions (that is, achieving earthly power is their explicit goal), and I'm not fond of either. Though Islam is less ridiculous than liberalism, at this point anyway, and the Muslim states are justified in resisting liberalism.

You must be very naive if you don't think that the Christian religion is not equally seeking earthly power. Social and political power is the goal of all theistic religions. That fact is why we have the separation of church and state in the First Amendment.

 

[Lursa]

Liberals generally have a salvation narrative, in which Secular Democracy rescued humanity from the darkness of Tyranny and Superstition. They generally believe in the necessity of constantly guarding against demonic forces (e.g. White Privilege, the Patriarchy, Nazis). They consider it obvious that their sacred institutions (e.g. the Free Press, various pseudo-academic disciplines) should enjoy state funding and/or special legal privileges. And they become enraged when exposed to ideas contrary to liberalism.

sources? I've never heard such a ludicrous load of crap, much less believed it. And I'm a liberal for the most part.

Let's see you substantiate that fantasy.

This is the barely coherent and grammatically inept speech of a man who desperately wants to be able to claim that he "cured coronavirus."

That's it, in a nutshell. When we do get a handle on this crisis, he wants to be able to pull out footage and declare "I called it! I said use this! I said try this! I told them to do this, it was my idea!" He's just doing it with lots of stupid stuff because he doesnt want to miss an opportunity. He's afraid 'the big one' will be mentioned and he wont get credit for it.

It's all about declaring himself the savior of the cv crisis and we'll hear all about it, esp in his campaign. (Which is basically each of his press briefings these days) --- Lursa

 

[AmNat]

sources? I've never heard such a ludicrous load of crap, much less believed it. And I'm a liberal for the most part.

Let's see you substantiate that fantasy.

You don't believe that democracy is the only acceptable form of government? Or that "women's rights" are in constant danger of being taken away? Or that the social "sciences" should receive NSF grants? Or in "freedom of the press"?

And you don't know anyone who believes these things?

 

[ataraxia]

RE: being the "living lion" advocating theocracy over the the founding fathers of this country advocating democracy.

me of course.

It would be an interesting idea if it hadn't already been tried and having failed miserably for millennia.

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.... Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not.”
-James Madison

So how many more times do you want to repeat that failed experiment?

 

[ataraxia]

Liberals generally have a salvation narrative, in which Secular Democracy rescued humanity from the darkness of Tyranny and Superstition. They generally believe in the necessity of constantly guarding against demonic forces (e.g. White Privilege, the Patriarchy, Nazis). They consider it obvious that their sacred institutions (e.g. the Free Press, various pseudo-academic disciplines) should enjoy state funding and/or special legal privileges. And they become enraged when exposed to ideas contrary to liberalism.

Because those ideas had been tried for a few millennia and found to fail miserably.

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution...In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not.”
-James Madison

How many more times do you want to keep repeating that failed experiment?

 

[Dayton3]

RE: being the "living lion" advocating theocracy over the the founding fathers of this country advocating democracy.



It would be an interesting idea if it hadn't already been tried and having failed miserably for millennia.

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.... Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not.”
-James Madison

So how many more times do you want to repeat that failed experiment?

My church doesn't have a "clergy".

Or for that matter any kind of central authority or centralized organization.

 

[ataraxia]

My church doesn't have a "clergy".

Or for that matter any kind of central authority or centralized organization.

So who in your church is going to dictate to us what to believe and what to do?

 

[Dayton3]

So who in your church is going to dictate to us what to believe and what to do?

each congregation is completely independent. Suppose it would have to be on an individual basis.

But you're in luck given that I'm an individual.

 

[Irredentist]

Ignoring the obvious. The United States when it was founded was overwhelmingly Christian and the founders had no reason to think it would ever be otherwise.

Does it matter whether the founders thought America would always be overwhelmingly Christian? Because it doesn't seem like we will stay that way for much longer.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Does it matter whether the founders thought America would always be overwhelmingly Christian? Because it doesn't seem like we will stay that way for much longer.

You are somewhat of an anomaly among industrialised societies in that regard. (religion)

 

[EMNofSeattle]

The state cannot enforce a religious morality because there are as many ideas of what is moral as who is or isn't god/s or what sect you belong to and obey. That action would be a blatant violation of both religious clauses of the First Amendment because the state would be enforcing a religious idea, which violates the strict separation of chich and state and it would be trampling on the religious and secular rights of people who were not a member of the religion or sect views being enforced.
Can you be forced to obey the hundreds of edicts of Islam, Buddhism, Eastern Orthodox, Catholicism, and Paganism among more than 100 other religions, or is it just your religious beliefs that others would be forced to comply with via the power of the state?

The state can impose religious morality as long as the law applies equally to everyone and does not require religious practice

 

[Irredentist]

The state can impose religious morality as long as the law applies equally to everyone and does not require religious practice

Imposing religious law is by definition imposing religious practice upon people who otherwise would not have abided by such laws.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Does it matter whether the founders thought America would always be overwhelmingly Christian? Because it doesn't seem like we will stay that way for much longer.

This is why I’ve changed my view on immigration. I want as many Latinos and black Africans to immigrate here as possible, like 500 million next year so we can put the feminists and liberals to heel by open election.

There’s no point in Protestant white culture, that was the cause of our demise as a society.
Let’s become diverse

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Imposing religious law is by definition imposing religious practice upon people who otherwise would not have abided by such laws.

So is rape wrong?

 

[Dayton3]

This is why I’ve changed my view on immigration. I want as many Latinos and black Africans to immigrate here as possible, like 500 million next year so we can put the feminists and liberals to heel by open election.

There’s no point in Protestant white culture, that was the cause of our demise as a society.
Let’s become diverse

Diversity is pointless. It is one of the reasons for the U.S. failures in responding to the virus outbreak. Look how much better largely homogenous nations like South Korea did.