No Adam, no Eve: the foundation and structure of Christianity collapse

[What if...?]

I understand the oldest "human" ancestor is A. anamensis, from Ethiopia, correct? About 3.9 million years ago? You're not talking about a gigantic leap for those earliest ancestors to end up in a "garden" a couple thousand miles away over the course of time and evolution.

I've never taken the Bible to be absolutely true. I mean...come on...7 days to form the earth and create every.single.creature? No evolution?

But considering that many religions tend to point towards a 'garden'...I'm going to guess that somewhere along the lines of storytelling, human history, etc...there was some fertile area of land where human life as we've come to know it evolved.


If attempting to discredit the story of creation is an attempt to discredit religion, then it is a weak attempt. You're talking about books/religions that have existed for thousands of years. And considering that in 2021 we still are learning and finding things...with all the advanced technology we have now...of course, the story would be simplistic and easy to understand and pass down. Human understanding of simply the planet that we have been living on and, let's face it, our own BODIES is still evolving. There's so much we do not know.

The fertile crescent enjoyed more easily domesticable plants and animals.than any other area on earth. Hands down. In the entire new world the largest "domesticable" animal was the llama and corn started as a tiny seed pod. That was about it.

 

[What if...?]

As for the story of Adam and Eve…I look at it not as a literal snake in a garden that spoke specifically to one man and one woman…but the dawn on man realizing that choices have consequences. Or that we HAVE choices and responsibilities past our more basic animal instincts.

The beginning of realizing that there’s something different about humans vs. other mammals…a higher level of thinking, comprehending, choices that sets humans apart and makes us different.

And also recognizing that necessity of and appreciating the differences between the man and the woman of the species. And that without each other, we cannot exist as a species. We are of “one”….or human life ceases to exist.

We somehow knew these things, instinctually or we never would have made it TO evolution but I see the story of the Garden of Eden as a way to pass that information on. Since there weren’t books, etc back then. There were stories.

And these type of early stories exist in every major religion, not just Christianity/Judaism.

I read somewhere once that some think all of the legends of the fall, the eating from the tree of knowledge were all stories told.by peoples that hadn't adopted agriculture as early.

The difference you mention between man and the animals. The earlier peoples were."part" of the world they lived in. Those doing the farming were no.longer. they decided what lived and what died. What could be eaten and what could not. What posed a.threat to crops or livestock. Weeds.were eliminated. Predators were.eliminated.

See how that kind of fits your model?

 

[MamboDervish]

For may are called but few are chosen. God didn’t give everyone faith. It’s a gift to his elect.

Yet another example of a racist god. He has an "elect" - he has a "chosen people". And he apparently has a favorite gender, too! We're expected to believe that the creator of the entire cosmos chooses favorite races of people to survive and thrive, while the rest of his sons and daughters suffer eternal damnation. That horseshit actually makes sense to some people! Personally, I would never worship such a petty, capricious deity, and it surprises me that so many thinking adult people would. It sounds like a "god" you would try to sell to naive little children, just to keep them in line.

Worshiping such a deity - this flighty, racist, misogynist, jealous, vengeful, sociopathic god - says a lot about his followers, and none of it good. I'm happy to not be among his elect.

Many are cold, but few are frozen.

 

[MamboDervish]

It's kind of strange to so many are so committed to disproving that which they don't believe. Why does it take so much effort to disprove nothing?

What a ridiculous notion you have. Who do you think is "so committed to disproving" anything? The earth and planetary sciences don't progress and advance with the intention of disproving anyone's religious beliefs. That whole idea is beyond laughable. The tens-of-thousands of earth and planetary scientists around the world work in their very diverse fields to better understand the truths of our world and our universe. The last thing on their minds in their study and exploration of that world, is disproving anyone's belief in ancient mythologies.

Where on earth did you get such a silly idea?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Where did they come from? You have to go back to a male and female at some point...a whole group of people didn't just poof into existence...

Nope, you could just start with the tiny group of survivors of Noah’s (global?) flood.

 

[Sweden]

I thought that they've concluded that the biblical Garden of Eden would be in Mesopotamia...which is essentially the cradle of humanity. How do you know that there wasn't an Adam and an Eve?

I mean, humans had to literally start somewhere, right? Where did humans first start then?

Humans didn't 'start'. They evolved from other primates. Homo Sapiens became a distinct species when it stopped being able to inter breed with other species.

 

[Lutherf]

What a ridiculous notion you have. Who do you think is "so committed to disproving" anything? The earth and planetary sciences don't progress and advance with the intention of disproving anyone's religious beliefs. That whole idea is beyond laughable. The tens-of-thousands of earth and planetary scientists around the world work in their very diverse fields to better understand the truths of our world and our universe. The last thing on their minds in their study and exploration of that world, is disproving anyone's belief in ancient mythologies.

Where on earth did you get such a silly idea?

Is this thread not all about disproving the basis for Christianity? It isn't the only thread here with that purpose either. Heck, denying, disparaging and disproving the Truth has been a hobby of man for a very, very long time yet, for some strange reason, the Truth remains. Some might find it rather remarkable that 3000 or 4000 years of kicking against the goads hasn't diminished the plow rows one bit. Others might look at that circumstance and and think, "Well, such is the nature of man."

 

[notquiteright]

They would be just a few.generations from a perfect genome though. Not made of DNA subjected to millions of years.of cosmic radiation.

Not that I think it is more than parable. Just from a feasibility standpoint.

I too believe it is a nice story for children. It borrows from many earlier creation stories.

The Old Testament shies away from declaring itself the true word of God (perhaps due to being the history of a people and it's established religion.)

The New Testament on the other hand declares itself the true word of God (perhaps due to the need to convince followers to join a new religion and not question it)

When I was young my Minister told me many stories we read were parables to explain complex ideas. Not literal truth but a guide to a good life...

 

[Goshin]

I understand why believers believe. All I am saying is that it is based in myth.

I understand that you think you understand. You clearly don't, for which I am sorry. I will pray that you do come to understand.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

I mean, humans had to literally start somewhere, right? Where did humans first start then?

Africa. We even have a guess as to which part of Africa.

Ancestral home of modern humans is in Botswana, study finds

Other scientists raise questions about results, which were based on DNA samples

www.theguardian.com

 

[watsup]

Nope, you could just start with the tiny group of survivors of Noah’s (global?) flood.

Myth.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

There was nothing wrong with incest when man and woman were 1st created...how else could the whole human race be related...each generation away from the 1st human pair was further and further away from perfection, which caused genetic problems...in time, God gave the law in Leviticus against incest...it was not until Moses received God’s laws for the nation of Israel in 1513 BCE that intercourse between close relatives was specifically forbidden....

So...was murder also moral before god made a rule for it? Just curious.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Myth.

Yep, but part of the same collection of myths.

 

[watsup]

Is this thread not all about disproving the basis for Christianity? It isn't the only thread here with that purpose either. Heck, denying, disparaging and disproving the Truth has been a hobby of man for a very, very long time yet, for some strange reason, the Truth remains. Some might find it rather remarkable that 3000 or 4000 years of kicking against the goads hasn't diminished the plow rows one bit. Others might look at that circumstance and and think, "Well, such is the nature of man."

And yet not a single person has offered a solid rebuttal to my OP that the MYTH of Adam and Eve undermines the foundation of Christianity and thus the entire basic doctrine of the need for a “Redeemer” comes crashing down. And “truth” is the result of objective analysis of alternatives, it is not just “given”.

 

[Lutherf]

I too believe it is a nice story for children. It borrows from many earlier creation stories.

The Old Testament shies away from declaring itself the true word of God (perhaps due to being the history of a people and it's established religion.)

The New Testament on the other hand declares itself the true word of God (perhaps due to the need to convince followers to join a new religion and not question it)

When I was young my Minister told me many stories we read were parables to explain complex ideas. Not literal truth but a guide to a good life...

It is all the true word of God. God IS the Word and the Word is spread in many ways.

We might well doubt that a tortoise ever raced a hare and won but that wasn't really the point of the story, was it?

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Biologically? Past the point of caring for offspring, mating, protection from predators, surviving natural elements…mammals don’t tend to care about one another.

Well...the problem is that isn't really true. Elephants will have "funerals" for each other. There is the rather bizarre story of the dolphin that commit suicide after being separated from their trainer.

Peter and Margaret were separated. He was shlepped to a dolphin tank in Florida, where within weeks, he “committed suicide by refusing to breathe, and sinking to the bottom of his tank.”

Elephants have such intense social groups that they become extremely upset when one of their own dies. Of all animal grieving and funeral rituals, there is none as well documented or well known as the elephant’s.


Upon seeing the bones or carcass of another elephant, a family will stop and investigate them, even if the elephant was unrelated to the group. The ritual includes touching the bones gently with their trunks while remaining very quiet, covering the body with leaves and grass, and if the elephant belonged to their own, staying with the body for days or weeks at a time.

Animals almost certainly love. As certain as we can be about the mind of another outside of our own.

3 Animals that Have Funerals to Grieve for the Dead

Interesting stories relating to the funeral industry

www.myguaranteedplan.ca

The Dolphin Who Killed Himself Over A Broken Heart

As a famous civil-rights leader once said, the arc of the sexual universe is long, but it eventually bends toward dolphin suicide.

thoughtcatalog.com

 

[Daisy]

So...was murder also moral before god made a rule for it? Just curious.

Jehovah God warned Cain, yes...Cain ignored the warning...

" Cain grew hot with anger and was dejected. Then Jehovah said to Cain: “Why are you so angry and dejected? If you turn to doing good, will you not be restored to favor? But if you do not turn to doing good, sin is crouching at the door, and its craving is to dominate you; but will you get the mastery over it?” Genesis 4:5-7

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Jehovah God warned Cain, yes...Cain ignored the warning...

" Cain grew hot with anger and was dejected. Then Jehovah said to Cain: “Why are you so angry and dejected? If you turn to doing good, will you not be restored to favor? But if you do not turn to doing good, sin is crouching at the door, and its craving is to dominate you; but will you get the mastery over it?” Genesis 4:5-7

Ok, but what about before that happened? Like, you said incest was fine before god made a rule against it. Was murder, homosexuality, theft, other sins etc also moral before god made rules against them?

 

[Daisy]

Ok, but what about before that happened? Like, you said incest was fine before god made a rule against it. Was murder, homosexuality, theft, other sins etc also moral before god made rules against them?

Swwwoooosssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

 

[Goshin]

Regarding the whole Genesis vs evolution thing, and its impact on Christianity, and what I think about all that...

I don't worry about it.

Was creation literally six days, or was it six periods of time that, had any human been there to see it, would have seemed like millions of years?
I don't know. I wasn't there. Neither were you, nor any other human. At best we look back "through a glass, darkly".

Einstein proved time was relative to the observer. The Bible says "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day." Perhaps when God puts his hand on something, time flows as He wills it, in a way beyond our understanding.

Should Genesis be taken literally, or as allegorical/metaphorical "the best understanding people of the time could grasp"?
Again, I don't know. I don't worry about it.

I don't worry about it because I know God. I know He is real, and whatever the details of how life came to be He was in charge from beginning to end.

The seeming disconnect between Genesis and science doesn't worry me... one day God will explain it to me in person.

A lot of you won't understand this. Some will.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Swwwoooosssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

I'm not sure what this response means. I'm genuinely trying to understand what your beliefs are.

 

[notquiteright]

It is all the true word of God. God IS the Word and the Word is spread in many ways.

We might well doubt that a tortoise ever raced a hare and won but that wasn't really the point of the story, was it?

So, the Bible isn't infallible as the parables may well be doubted. The stories told are simple tales to give one side of history. It's one thing to believe God created the heavens and the earth, another to believe Humans existed for only 6,000 years.

 

[Daisy]

I'm not sure what this response means. I'm genuinely trying to understand what your beliefs are.

Well, think about it...were so many laws necessary when there were only 4 people on the earth? No...as the human race grew, more laws were needed to direct/teach/instruct them...

 

[Lutherf]

And yet not a single person has offered a solid rebuttal to my OP that the MYTH of Adam and Eve undermines the foundation of Christianity and thus the entire basic doctrine of the need for a “Redeemer” comes crashing down. And “truth” is the result of objective analysis of alternatives, it is not just “given”.

I'm not here to "rebut" anything.

The creation of Adam separated man from divinity. No man is, was or ever will be a god. We are caretakers, servants and subjects of the mortal realm. The original sin was our dissatisfaction with that role and our pursuit of more than the abundance that was freely given us. Christ, the Word made flesh, is the path to reconciliation with original sin. The Holy Spirit is the legacy of the Word among men. The Word is eternal and faith in the Word is the relentless pursuit of peace through selfless love which, of course, is the state in which man was created. There is no "myth" in the creation or anything that came after creation. There is only the Message.

 

[Lutherf]

So, the Bible isn't infallible as the parables may well be doubted. The stories told are simple tales to give one side of history. It's one thing to believe God created the heavens and the earth, another to believe Humans existed for only 6,000 years.

You seem to be focused on the trees while there is an entire forest before you.