New photo released from night of shooting

[Catawba]

Your narrative is way off and baseless.

He did not stalk Trayvon.
And he was not "ordered not to follow".

Keeping an eye on a suspicious person until the police you called arrive, is not stalking in any way shape or form.

Secondly, in the City Managers Official release it was pointed out that the Communication Call-Taker's statement of; "We don't need you to do that.", was only a suggestion. A suggestion that Zimmerman was under no obligation to follow. Even though he apparently did follow the suggestion.

Nor does a Communication Call-Taker have any authority over the situation. Even if they were a Police Officer they have no authority to tell/order anything. They are not on site and have no operational control. To give the Communication Call-Takers any authority would open up the Police and City to unneeded liability.

I surely don't believe that. But that isn't all Trayvon did. You seem to be ignoring the fact that he continued his attack, even jumping on a downed Zimmerman. That clearly changes the game.

I forgot you were an eye witness. LOL! You crack me up!

 

[spanky]

Do you not think when you response?

Do you not review before you reply?

 

[spanky]

I don't need to. You just have to examine yourself.

I think that's illegal in 27 states.

But not Arkansas.

 

[Excon]

I forgot you were an eye witness. LOL! You crack me up!

Holy ****! You crack us up! :lamo
Nothing has to do with whether or not I was a witness. :doh
It has to do with the evidence.
Which is omething that it would be wise of you to pay attention to.

 

[Excon]

So you are stating Zimmerman was lying when he said he was just looking for an address? He had to follow Martin to keep an eye on him...lying is lying

Are you really this obtuse? Or are you just playing at it?

Did Zimmerman initially try to keep an eye on Trayvon by following? Yes he did. Did he stop after it was suggested. Supposedly.
That is not stalking, duh!

 

[JackFrost]

Are you really this obtuse? Or are you just playing at it?

Did Zimmerman initially try to keep an eye on Trayvon by following? Yes he did. Did he stop after it was suggested. Supposedly.
That is not stalking, duh!

But Zimmerman denied following TM...denied....was looking for an address...going in the same direction...so he was lying eh?

 

[Excon]

But Zimmerman denied following TM...denied....was looking for an address...going in the same direction...so he was lying eh?

I am no longer going to play your stupid little game. Learn the evidence before speaking.

 

[JackFrost]

I am no longer going to play your stupid little game. Learn the evidence before speaking.

Stop the press! Let us take a look at who needs to get their learn on buddy.

Did Zimmerman initially try to keep an eye on Trayvon by following? Yes he did

Where is your evidence George Zimmerman followed TM to keep an eye on him? I KNOW George Zimmerman never stated he did. He actually DENIED doing so, and instead said he was looking for an address, and going in the same direction, NOT following as you claim.

Why are you so sure George Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin, in CONTRAST to George Zimmerman's own statements? Are you implying he is lying?

 

[Excon]

Stop the press! Let us take a look at who needs to get their learn on buddy.



Where is your evidence George Zimmerman followed TM to keep an eye on him? I KNOW George Zimmerman never stated he did. He actually DENIED doing so, and instead said he was looking for an address, and going in the same direction, NOT following as you claim.

Why are you so sure George Zimmerman followed Trayvon Martin, in CONTRAST to George Zimmerman's own statements? Are you implying he is lying?

You really have a problem in confusing time frames.
Listen to the 911 call.

 

[Grim17]

I am no longer going to play your stupid little game. Learn the evidence before speaking.

You know what's interesting about the Florida SYG law... Even if Zimmerman had tracked down Martin, initiated contact, and even committed the first act of aggression, once he made it clear that he gave up and wanted the fight to stop, Martin continuing to beat Zimmerman gave him the legal right to use what ever force necessary to stop Martin if he felt he was in mortal danger or in danger of great bodily harm.

Yet there are people arguing over the silliest, most irrelevant things like they're so important and have such profound implications... When they really don't... It's ridiculous.

 

[Rocketman]

A pic is worth a thousand words

Definitely, the injuries are consistent with self-defense

I would have shot that kid way before it got that far

 

[spanky]

I would have shot that kid way before it got that far

Really. At what point would you have done that?

 

[ric27]

You know what's interesting about the Florida SYG law... Even if Zimmerman had tracked down Martin, initiated contact, and even committed the first act of aggression, once he made it clear that he gave up and wanted the fight to stop, Martin continuing to beat Zimmerman gave him the legal right to use what ever force necessary to stop Martin if he felt he was in mortal danger or in danger of great bodily harm.

Yet there are people arguing over the silliest, most irrelevant things like they're so important and have such profound implications... When they really don't... It's ridiculous.

Even if Z provoked/confronted the incident, Z still fulfills the requirement of using deadly force.

Why? Z tried to free himself before using deadly force in response, but could not. Z was struggling to get up and out from under M and M going for Z's gun. Z had no choice but to use lethal force. The classic self defense

The icing on the cake is no witness or witnesses saw anything different.

 

[Rocketman]

Really. At what point would you have done that?

At the first strike by the kid. I am permitted for carry/conceal and would be legal here to shoot him for any aggression made by an attacker.

 

[JackFrost]

Really. At what point would you have done that?

You are just giving the kid attention:lol:

 

[ric27]

At the first strike by the kid. I am permitted for carry/conceal and would be legal here to shoot him for any aggression made by an attacker.

Its good to know your state laws

Just to expand the point of deadly force...Your decision to use lethal force must be based on what the person is doing at the precise time you are actually using lethal force.

Previous acts can help you to justify your decision, but ultimately they must be based on what the BG/perp is doing at the precise/critical moment you shoot.

 

[Rocketman]

Its good to know your state laws

Just to expand the point of deadly force...Your decision to use lethal force must be based on what the person is doing at the precise time you are actually using lethal force.

Previous acts can help you to justify your decision, but ultimately they must be based on what the BG/perp is doing at the precise/critical moment you shoot.

They do not have to armed or make an agressive move if they are in the house, we can shoot them and ask questions later if they live.

 

[ric27]

They do not have to armed or make an agressive move if they are in the house, we can shoot them and ask questions later if they live.

That's, the law then it's ok with me

 

[mike2810]

The prosecution

My bad
I should have said the "Special Prosecutor " alterted the photos to minimize the extent of injuries.:mrgreen:
(your the one who brought up photoshop)

 

[dolphinocean]

Fair enough. Here are some questions I have regarding them, not knowing police procedures.

1. Agreed. I'm not sure how the location of the vehicle changes anything, but it should have been secured and searched.

2. From anything I've seen the only interaction Zimm had with witnesses was before the police arrived and everything said is in the record of witness statements.

3. As for the Ooster guy, him talking with a friend cop he knew at the scene after arriving MUCH later doesn't change anything and if the cop gave him his opinion based on what was known at the time, well that doesn't change anything either.

Zimm was immediately taken into custody and with the exception of being attended to by paramedics I haven't seen or read that he interacted with anyone but police after that. I believe he was then taken to the police station where photos were taken. Again, I don't know it if police procedure is to take such photos immediately at the scene, but considering the cop used his cell phone and wasn't equipped with proper camera equipment to do so i'm going to guess no. We also don't know when the evidence gathering team arrived, before or after Zimm was taken away.

4. The paramedics documented Zimms injuries and also noted he didn't seem to be suffering from any more serious injuries other then his nose and back of his head. I'm not sure if it's required to send someone to the hospital in this instance when they refuse. Also, was Zimm under arrest? I'm not sure if there is a difference to arrest and "taken into custody".

5. From my understanding of the reports, the police weren't aware of the sidewalk issue until Zimm made a statement later at the police station, maybe the next day during the walk through. I think the rain would have washed any evidence away.

Also note there is no indication any investigation was done for blood evidence anwhere else on the ground and considering TM was initially laying face down, there should have been blood on the grass.

Let me just make it short for lack of time. The location of Zimmerman's parked vehicle is very significant. Whether he was parked near the mail station by the club house as he initially indicated in his drawing to the female investigator and then quickly scratched it out or was he parked near the cut-thru as he indicated at the "re-enactment" video called into question of the timeline. If he was parked near the mail area by the club house, his excuse for getting out of the truck for an address become even more ridiculous because the clubhouse is just near the entrance by the main entry road. Also, he shouldn't be anywhere near the cut-thru let alone where Trayvon's body was found because when he got out of the truck and ran after Trayvon it was only a few seconds of running when the dispatcher asked him was he following Trayvon and he said yes. Off the top of my head, I remember it was somewhere between 17 to 20 seconds when the dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that" or to that effect and then he said "OK". No matter which direction Zimmerman ran or where he was after the run, he should be back in his truck within the 17 to 20 seconds time frame give or take 10 seconds for good measure and he would still be on the phone with the dispatcher while back sitting in his truck before the conversation ended. After hanging up the phone with the dispatcher he still had about two minutes sitting in his truck waiting for the police to arrive instead of pulling the trigger on Trayvon where the body was found.

Osterman not only talked with his buddy police officer but he also spoke with Zimmerman at the crime scene. I would not go over the rest of the other points as we clearly don't see eye to eye but I'd like to point out that blood stains on the concrete can be tested with luminol technique not just the next day but a few days or weeks later (Loy and Wood, (1989) were able to use the most basic test for blood commonly used in crime scene investigation and applied it on approximately 9000 year old archaeological evidence from Cayonu Tepesi in Turkey with successful result).
There was a murder case in West Memphis where investigators went to the murder crime scene a week after the murder to perform luminol test on the crime scene. The crime scene wasn't a nice solid concrete surface as in this case. It was located outdoor in a hilly wooded area and they were able to locate blood evidence with luminol test where the bodies were found, at the trail and bluff. This despite their report of "the weather conditions of some light rain the night before and the originally low concentration levels" found at the sites.

So, even if there was an attempt to wash the evidence away with water unless bleach was used, the presumptive test for blood is still possible. If someone had attempted to use bleach to destroy blood evidence, luminol would mask the blood stain evidence, thus requiring a different test for blood evidence.

Whether Zimmerman bled a lot or very little after being allegedly slammed into the concrete repeatedly for almost a minute, luminol could still detect trace amount of blood if present.

Read this:

Luminol Chemiluminescence Test for Blood - How to Use Luminol to Test for Blood
The luminol solution is sprayed where blood might be found. The iron from the hemoglobin in the blood serves as a catalyst for the chemiluminescence reaction that causes luminol to glow, so a blue glow is produced when the solution is sprayed where there is blood. Only a tiny amount of iron is required to catalyze the reaction. <snip>

If a crime scene was washed in bleach, for example, the whole area would glow when sprayed with luminol, making it necessary to use a different test to find traces of blood

Luminol test has been in used by crime scene investigators for many decades. I'm sure the SPD would be well verse with it. They could have immediately went back to the crime scene that ver night after the interview or after the video "re-enactment" and test the specific spot where Zimmerman indicated his head was bashed. They should also test the whole concrete walkway starting from the T-junction all the way down where Trayvon's body was found. But, they just simply failed to perform it. Not just this but there were many other important thing they failed to do, such as checking into Trayvon's cell-phone instead of simply returning it to his parents.

What the SPD investigators eagerly failed to do in shirking their duty, they sure make them up with diligent haste in finding Zimmerman not guilty by reason of self-defense. Thus, they sure came out in droves and in a hurry from the top down to vouch for Zimmerman without missing a heart beat, to wit:

1. Osterman said he was told by his buddy police friend at the crime scene that the case is clean, meaning it was self-defense.

2 Singleton noted "that she was told beforehand by a fellow officer that the case "might be self-defense.'”

3. In the early weeks after the killing, Bill Lee stepped up onto the podium before the press, claiming, "All the physical evidence and testimony we have independent of what Mr. Zimmerman provides corroborates this claim to self-defense.”

 

[dolphinocean]

To be justified in using deadly force, Z had to be in fear when he shot M. The point in time is CRITICAL by which Z's fear/use of deadly force is measured.

The so called brutal beating does not need to happen.... The fear Z anticipated, need not be real, Z just had to believe it was real, and Z's belief had to be reasonable.

This is what you fail to understand

The so called brutal beating does not need to happen.... because evidence clearly showed otherwise. So then we now move on to your next point.


You claimed: "The fear Z anticipated, need not be real, Z just had to believe it was real, and Z's belief had to be reasonable."

Not so. Zimmerman as a defendant can certainly claim how fearful for his life he felt that night to be real. But, the legal standard is, given the evidence presented, how a reasonable person in a similar situation would felt and thus to judge whether the claim of fear is reasonable. Otherwise, based on your standard anybody can just claim that they genuinely felt fear for their life and thus get away with murder.


Therefore, it's the jury who get to decide based on the legal standard.

 

[dolphinocean]

You know what's interesting about the Florida SYG law... Even if Zimmerman had tracked down Martin, initiated contact, and even committed the first act of aggression, once he made it clear that he gave up and wanted the fight to stop, Martin continuing to beat Zimmerman gave him the legal right to use what ever force necessary to stop Martin if he felt he was in mortal danger or in danger of great bodily harm.

Yet there are people arguing over the silliest, most irrelevant things like they're so important and have such profound implications... When they really don't... It's ridiculous.

Why salivate at such insane law if that's how it is interpreted?

If a villain can just track down another person, initiated contact, and even committed the first act of aggression, and slaughtered that person cold-bloodedly while all that person did was fending off the attacks, the villain could then simply claimed after the fact that he had made it clear that he gave up and wanted the fight to stop but the victim kept fighting back? By the standard of pro-zim supporters as seen here in this forum, the villain's words are golden and are all that matter. Afterall, the victim couldn't speak for himself and thus by default is the bad guy.

 

[dolphinocean]

With all the software available to detect a doctored image, and all the digital imaging experts around these days, I expect if that photo is a fake, we probably would have heard about it by now... Don't you think?

It's funny how people who's beliefs are only justified if things are out of the ordinary, always manage to find those out of the ordinary things... It's amazing how many things a person can find when common sense is taken out of the equation.

This photshopped picture of Zimmerman by Journey2Justice and TrayvonsTruth at Jeepers Creepers, Where’d You Get Those Peepers George? Or, Lack Thereof! « previously linked to by hawke demonstrated how easy it is to photoshop a picture:

　
http://i45.tinypic.com/25t7qfc.jpg

　
They said they took less than five minutes to do it. How many weeks did the SPD officer have? Here's another on done by another person called Papapi at JQ:


http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMGZUpClose.jpg


Cool huh?

 

[dolphinocean]

His screams for help seem to confirm just how real it was to him.

This show your bias. There is no conclusive proof that the scream was Zimmerman's.


We went thru this before here:


http://www.debatepolitics.com/zimme...ce-sample-scream-reenactment-his-screams.html

 

[dolphinocean]

My bad
I should have said the "Special Prosecutor " alterted the photos to minimize the extent of injuries.:mrgreen:
(your the one who brought up photoshop)

The "Special Prosecutor " did not alter the photo. They simply made photocopy in black and white.