Natural immunity verses vaccine

[bomberfox]

And by all means, I suggest that people in the high risk groups, who constitute the overwhelming majority of this number, should go out and get voluntarily vaccinated if they so choose. I'll even pay for the vaccine and its promotion with my taxes.


No we don't. Determining long term effects requires independent long-term testing, which is precisely why every other vaccine in existence goes through a decade or more of testing before hitting the market.

COVID vaccines were jammed on the market in record time under emergency authorization that suspended every protocol we have in place to ensure long-term vaccine safety. So don't sit there and tell me we know the long-term effects of the vaccine.

What you can say with a straight face is that you hope the vaccine has no long-term side effects, and that you, personally, presently believe it to be worth the risk. And more power to you. Get the bloody jab. But leave me out of it.


That hundreds of millions of people are getting vaccinated every six months?

By all means, explain to us how it's a lie.

You said millions were dieing from the vaccine

Your tactic failed and 800k and going paid the price for republicans wanting to push granny off a cliff.

Yes i can say with a straight face that Mrna vaccines are well known and safe. COVID is much more dangerous.

End of discussion.

 

[bomberfox]

If not for the systems---plural---formally designed and implemented to track adverse events in vaccines, then how, pray, do you suggest we track adverse events and deaths in vaccines?

We just ignore them and assume they aren't happening in any significant number? That seems to be what you're suggesting.

It isnt happening in a significant number. VAERS is just not a reliable system. They dont verify their counts.

 

[COTO]

It wasn't when it was first mandated.

We also aren't in the middle of a mumps pandemic, weren't even having one when they implemented most of those vaccine mandates.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but these mandates only apply to young children attending public schools, do they not?

 

[roguenuke]

If not for the systems---plural---formally designed and implemented to track adverse events in vaccines, then how, pray, do you suggest we track adverse events and deaths in vaccines?

We just ignore them and assume they aren't happening in any significant number? That seems to be what you're suggesting.

They are then studied for any abnormalities, above normal events/statistics in relation to the normal population, which would be very hard to calculate during a pandemic. So then you look at the causes of death, the circumstances for each case. Most of these, the cause of death, even a less serious event was something normal or expected from something not vaccine related.

In this case, it is completely legal (and legally required even) to report a death where the person was vaccinated and then got into a car accident or drug overdose because that is what is required, even when the doctor believes the vaccine was not at all related.

 

[COTO]

You said millions were dieing from the vaccine

I've said nothing of the sort. Nor is it a reasonable interpretation of anything I've said.

You clearly misunderstood the statement in bold.

 

[roguenuke]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but these mandates only apply to young children attending public schools, do they not?

Some apply to military too. There are also some for healthcare workers in several states and/or by private healthcare employers (about 70% across the country require annual flu vaccination).

But the reason that they are required for public school attendance is because vaccines work best when given in childhood, give the best protection. That means that the best time to vaccinate and ensure as much compliance as possible is to require it for public school attendance. What we have seen is that when those requirements are relaxed, we then see epidemics of viruses in several areas (with these relaxed mandates) that we should not be seeing.

That "childhood requirement"/"public school attendance" limitation doesn't really work when dealing with a deadly pandemic though. That fact does matter.

 

[COTO]

They are then studied for any abnormalities, above normal events/statistics in relation to the normal population, which would be very hard to calculate during a pandemic. So then you look at the causes of death, the circumstances for each case. Most of these, the cause of death, even a less serious event was something normal or expected from something not vaccine related.

It works the same way for the "800K" number of COVID deaths. They count deaths due to complications by COVID as a part of this number. But, as we all know and have acknowledged, most COVID victims have one foot in the grave already. The average number of years of life knocked off by the disease is estimated to be between 8 and 13 years. That's because COVID victims are characteristically old, with numerous comorbidities.

And of course there isn't a day that goes by without stories of people with, e.g. stage IV leukemia, chronic emphysema, etc., dying of "COVID" despite the obvious fact that COVID is simply the one piece of straw that broke the camel's back.

Hence if you're going to hide behind, "We can't know for sure that the vaccines are the cause of those deaths," then you're going to need to concede that a massive chunk of the 800K number you're throwing around is equally invalid.

 

[COTO]

That "childhood requirement"/"public school attendance" limitation doesn't really work when dealing with a deadly pandemic though. That fact does matter.

It also matters that I can pull my child out of US public school easily enough if I can't stomach the vaccine mandates.

Vaccines for work? For travel? To go to the mall?

These things I can't avoid. That has tremendous legal significance too.

 

[roguenuke]

It works the same way for the "800K" number of COVID deaths. They count deaths due to complications by COVID as a part of this number. But, as we all know and have acknowledged, most COVID victims have one foot in the grave already. The average number of years of life knocked off by the disease is estimated to be between 8 and 13 years. That's because COVID victims are characteristically old, with numerous comorbidities.

And of course there isn't a day that goes by without stories of people with, e.g. stage IV leukemia, chronic emphysema, etc., dying of "COVID" despite the obvious fact that COVID is simply the one piece of straw that broke the camel's back.

Hence if you're going to hide behind, "We can't know for sure that the vaccines are the cause of those deaths," then you're going to need to concede that a massive chunk of the 800K number you're throwing around is equally invalid.

No, it doesn't because the legal requirement for death certificates is the opposite of that for VAERS reporting. They are required by law to only report things that could in their medical opinion have legitimately contributed to the death of the person. Simply being positive for Covid but you die of say a bullet wound in most cases would mean covid is not on the death certificate (there could legitimately be cases though where it may be, as in if the bullet wound put the person into the hospital, but they were healing from that but Covid got them, where Covid would be cause of death with the bullet wound contributing).

Chronic emphysema is something people can live with. Many people can survive for months with stage IV leukemia. It is the same as a person got cancer but also had HIV/AIDS. It would count as a death towards both, as both are contributing factors to the death. It even works that way with flu and pneumonia.

 

[Mach]

And you create a population reliant on the vaccine forever.

We already take half a dozen vaccines for every child in America. Adding a few more to combat a pandemic. what are you scared of a needle?

 

[roguenuke]

It also matters that I can pull my child out of US public school easily enough if I can't stomach the vaccine mandates.

Vaccines for work? For travel? To go to the mall?

These things I can't avoid. That has tremendous legal significance too.

You can also find a different job, or a job that allows you to get tested weekly rather than vaxxed. You could can order online or have others shop for you. You can even order online and do curbside pickup.

Find a different way to travel. There are in fact some vaccine mandates to travel though to other certain other countries even before Covid. There is no right you have to utilize a specific form of travel. There is no right to go to the mall, especially not if you put others at increased risk by your actions or lack of.

Those are things you can avoid.

 

[Eriech]

Pharma is around 10% of total healthcare spending. A Covid vaccine has around an 18 dollar cost. In comparison the average Covid cost 73k

73k per covid case? Maybe for the 1% hospitalized.......

 

[ALiberalModerate]

73k per covid case? Maybe for the 1% hospitalized.......

So you have a choice:

1. You can get a free, and very safe vaccine that will almost eliminate your odds of developing a serious COVID infection.

Or,

2. You can opt to not be vaccinated, and have 10 times of the odds of being hospitalized then you would if you were vaccinated.

Only a fool chooses the second option, and if you ask me, insurers should be able to deny claims for COVID hospitalizations for anyone that chooses not to be vaccinated. Why should the rest of us pay for their poor choices?

 

[Eriech]

So you have a choice:

1. You can get a free, and very safe vaccine that will almost eliminate your odds of developing a serious COVID infection.

Or,

2. You can opt to not be vaccinated, and have 10 times of the odds of being hospitalized then you would if you were vaccinated.

Only a fool chooses the second option, and if you ask me, insurers should be able to deny claims for COVID hospitalizations for anyone that chooses not to be vaccinated. Why should the rest of us pay for their poor choices?

First off it isn't free. 2nd we do not know how safe it is, third if vaccines work why aren't they working?
$74 k per covid case is a lie. I was giving you the opportunity to correct yourself.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

First off it isn't free. 2nd we do not know how safe it is, third if vaccines work why aren't they working?
$74 k per covid case is a lie. I was giving you the opportunity to correct yourself.

The average cost of a COVID hospitalization is actually higher than that:

Average charge for COVID-19 hospitalization, by state - Becker's Hospital Review | Healthcare News & Analysis

The cost of a complex and noncomplex COVID-19 hospitalization in each state varies, according to a new interactive map from Fair Health, an independent nonprofit focused on enhancing price transparency in healthcare.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

Also, the vast majority of people hospitalized with COVID are unvaccinated.

 

[Eriech]

The average cost of a COVID hospitalization is actually higher than that:

Average charge for COVID-19 hospitalization, by state - Becker's Hospital Review | Healthcare News & Analysis

The cost of a complex and noncomplex COVID-19 hospitalization in each state varies, according to a new interactive map from Fair Health, an independent nonprofit focused on enhancing price transparency in healthcare.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

Also, the vast majority of people hospitalized with COVID are unvaccinated.

Hospitalizations not cases, that would make more sense.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

Pharma is around 10% of total healthcare spending. A Covid vaccine has around an 18 dollar cost. In comparison the average Covid cost 73k

Pfizer and Moderna have made billions and boosters until the end of time will make them richer than most countries.

 

[danielpalos]

Pfizer and Moderna have made billions and boosters until the end of time will make them richer than most countries.

How much is a potential cure for the common cold worth?

 

[Hughinn]

It doesn't matter because the vaccine reduces the spread to others. That is why we have the vaccine mandates, to reduce the spread to others.

It also reduces the risk of hospitalization.

You cannot identify absolutely who will be or won't be hospitalized based on "healthy".

Your anecdotal account means nothing. Plenty of families had very different results.

That still doesn't address the point of natural immunity.

Fact is some hundred million some odd people have contracted covid, and recovered. Most early cases were not vaccinated and 99% of people under 50 recovered without a vaccine.

"Experts don't have information about the outcome of every infection. However, early estimates predict that the overall COVID-19 recovery rate is between 97% and 99.75%.Aug 7, 2020".

 

[danielpalos]

That still doesn't address the point of natural immunity.

Fact is some hundred million some odd people have contracted covid, and recovered. Most early cases were not vaccinated and 99% of people under 50 recovered without a vaccine.

"Experts don't have information about the outcome of every infection. However, early estimates predict that the overall COVID-19 recovery rate is between 97% and 99.75%.Aug 7, 2020".

This was true at one point, regardless of "natural immunity":

Nearly all COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. now are in people who weren’t vaccinated, a staggering demonstration of how effective the shots have been and an indication that deaths per day — now down to under 300 — could be practically zero if everyone eligible got the vaccine.

 

[Hughinn]

This was true at one point, regardless of "natural immunity":

No, the percentages according to the CDC are basically the same.

As far as I know, nobody is tracking secondary covid infections.

And nobody is admitting natural immunity is real.

 

[danielpalos]

No, the percentages according to the CDC are basically the same.

As far as I know, nobody is tracking secondary covid infections.

And nobody is admitting natural immunity is real.

lol. Statistics are statistics.

Nearly all COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. now are in people who weren’t vaccinated, a staggering demonstration of how effective the shots have been and an indication that deaths per day — now down to under 300 — could be practically zero if everyone eligible got the vaccine.

Natural immunity should have made a difference.

 

[ecofarm]

I think one thing we can all agree on is the medical profession has been taken over by big pharma.

Going cult on entry. The OP has his target audience figured out.

Not everyone designs an essay thus:

1. Are you an idiotic conspiracy theorist?
2. If yes, continue.


I, for one, did not continue. I have some self respect. Just a little. But enough to not be treated like a moron.

"First, we all know the moon is made of cheese. Now, hear me out."

****ing pathetic.

 

[Hughinn]

lol. Statistics are statistics.


Natural immunity should have made a difference.

That's my point exactly.

There is no data being tracked in regards to natural immunity.

While we know post infection, natural immunity slowly subsides. But do does the effects of the vaccine.

What's not known, because it's not being tracked formally, is how well natural immunity protects a person during a secondary infection.

Natural immunity has worked for millions of years. Why deny it?

 

[ecofarm]

That's my point exactly.

There is no data being tracked in regards to natural immunity.

While we know post infection, natural immunity slowly subsides. But do does the effects of the vaccine.

What's not known, because it's not being tracked formally, is how well natural immunity protects a person during a secondary infection.

Natural immunity has worked for millions of years. Why deny it?

We know exactly how much recovery and vaccination protects a person. Your ignorance is only ignorance. You don't have the answers. We have the answers. You shouldn't be debating; you should be reading. When you've learned the basics, then try again. We'll still be here, still knowing the things you didn't.