NATO Response Force activated for first time

[Phys251]

And how are my arguments Russian propaganda? How are they coming into my head? Is Putin beaming them there by satellite?

Stop trying to show how so-called liberals can be the worst McCarthyites of all.

If Ukraine wants not to join the West - as per its fully democratically elected govt - then it should be free not to do so, instead of being subjected to a regime change coup as happened in 2014.

US Undersecretary Victoria Nuland is no friend of America's. She choreographed the regime change in Kiev in 2014. She's a Democrat warmonger married to a Republican Neo-Con warmonger Larry Kagan, a key advocate of the invasion of Iraq, which you liberals pretend to have opposed.

Your propaganda is hilariously awful and is convincing precisely no one.

 

[braindrain]

As far as I just stated

But what is your plan when Russia takes it further then that. Bringing in NATO troops is going to escalate things. That is a fact. So how far are you willing to go.

 

[Rexedgar]

I am not a Russian, Trump is not a Russian, Paul Manafort is not a Russian, Tucker Carlson is not a Russian -- all kinds of people you want to call Russian bots having nothing to do with Russia.




NATO should not be admitting countries just because they apply. What happens if Somalia applies to be in NATO - do they just get in? Hell no.

NATO should only be admitting countries that would benefit the organization, and not be a liability like Ukraine.

NATO should only be admitting countries that have a clearcut track record of democracy, and that is not the case with Ukraine's current govt.

There are very sharp differences of opinions among the people in Ukraine. There are people who strongly oppose being in NATO. Remember, one third of the population is Russian.

Zelensky has imprisoned political opposition leaders for opposing his politics, and he has likewise shut down media criticizing him.

This is not a democracy, and NATO should not admit countries that are undemocratic and have govts that engage in domestic coercion.

Like Turkey or Hungary?

 

[sanman]

Like Turkey or Hungary?

Hungary is a democracy. Fair enough - Turkey is currently under the nutty Erdogan, who wants to hang onto power as much as Joe Biden does, by fundamentally altering political freedoms. Also, it was under quasi-military rule in the past.

You're only only making the case for not claiming NATO as an upholder or promoter of democracy.

 

[sanman]

Your propaganda is hilariously awful and is convincing precisely no one.

No you

 

[Phys251]

No you

Amazing. You've gotten your Russian propaganda exposed for what it is and are out of attempts to make an intelligent comeback.

 

[Dayton3]

Better to be safe than sorry. But I don't believe Putin is crazy enough to attack
a NATO nation? If he woeruld my guess there would be many cruise missiles knocking on his door!
From land and sea.

An attack does not have to be on purpose. Ukrainian forces flee into Poland, a Russian commander orders an airstrike on them while they are in Polish territory.

 

[Rexedgar]

Hungary is a democracy. Fair enough - Turkey is currently under the nutty Erdogan, who wants to hang onto power as much as Joe Biden does, by fundamentally altering political freedoms. Also, it was under quasi-military rule in the past.

You're only only making the case for not claiming NATO as an upholder or promoter of democracy.

No, I am just pointing out the fallacy of your post.

 

[Grasshopper121212]

^ This is what Russian propaganda looks like.

Ukraine does not need permission from anybody. It should be free to ally with the West if it so chooses. The Russians are the clear aggressors here.

Ummm...no. That isn't Russian propaganda.

 

[Phys251]

Ummm...no. That isn't Russian propaganda.

Your opinion against Russian propaganda doesn't make it so.

 

[trouble13]

But what is your plan when Russia takes it further then that. Bringing in NATO troops is going to escalate things. That is a fact. So how far are you willing to go.

I would not bring in troops. I think euroupe should conduct fly bys to give the Ukrainian army air cover.

I think the Ukranian people have earned that kind of help from the world.

If Russia wishes to view that as an act of war against them by the rest of the world. They should be made to understand that any retailiation on their part against those forces will be an act of war against the world alliance. It will be greeted with enormous force.

If Russia wishes to further engage and if others wish to join them then I guess we have ww3. Russia would be wise to stop before this esculates into something bigger than they can handle.

 

[braindrain]

I would not bring in troops. I think euroupe should conduct fly bys to give the Ukrainian army air cover.

I think the Ukranian people have earned that kind of help from the world.

If Russia wishes to view that as an act of war against them by the rest of the world. They should be made to understand that any retailiation on their part against those forces will be an act of war against the world alliance. It will be greeted with enormous force.

If Russia wishes to further engage and if others wish to join them then I guess we have ww3. Russia would be wise to stop before this esculates into something bigger than they can handle.

I don’t see how you think Russia wouldn’t see European aircraft killing Russian soldiers as anything but an act of war. Despite the fact that they started this.

What is your plan when Russia launches a few missiles to destroy what ever airbase those planes are coming from. Are we going to lob some missiles into Russia.


As bad as I feel for the Ukrainian people I don’t think they are worth risking ww3 and the likely hood of nuclear weapons being used. Are you willing to lose your family in a nuclear exchange to save Ukraine. I am not.

The only real chance the west had to stop this was before Russia invaded.

Most of Europe pretending Russia was no longer a threat for a couple decades and becoming dependent on the NG Russia provides is what put the west in this position.

I think the best thing we can do note if sanction the shit out of Russia and never again buy anything from them.

 

[trouble13]

But what is your plan when Russia takes it further then that. Bringing in NATO troops is going to escalate things. That is a fact. So how far are you willing to go.

That would depend on how far Russia is willing to go.

 

[trouble13]

I don’t see how you think Russia wouldn’t see European aircraft killing Russian soldiers as anything but an act of war. Despite the fact that they started this.

What is your plan when Russia launches a few missiles to destroy what ever airbase those planes are coming from. Are we going to lob some missiles into Russia.


As bad as I feel for the Ukrainian people I don’t think they are worth risking ww3 and the likely hood of nuclear weapons being used. Are you willing to lose your family in a nuclear exchange to save Ukraine. I am not.

The only real chance the west had to stop this was before Russia invaded.

Most of Europe pretending Russia was no longer a threat for a couple decades and becoming dependent on the NG Russia provides is what put the west in this position.

I think the best thing we can do note if sanction the shit out of Russia and never again buy anything from them.

Your position is completely fair and respectable. It was very similar to my own before I changed my mind.

1. We promised Ukraine our help if they gave up their nukes in the 90s. I think that promise should be honored.

2. Given the fight the Ukraines are putting up I think they deserve the worlds help. Russia is trying to steal their right to govern themselves.

3. It serves the interests of the western world to keep the Russians embroiled in this fight

4. I'm not so much worried about Russia launching nukes. That threat is Russias Trump card to negotiate it's way out of a total surrender and I don't see them doing it when the possibility that they can gives them more leverage.

5. The bigger threat they pose is a cyber war. That does concern me.

6. What also concerns me is who would ally with them, China, Iran, possibly India? It could be come the East vs the Western World.

It is scary stuff which is why I respect your position of wanting to do everything possible to avoid it. I don't think they are anxious to go down that road either and a strong front might be the better deterrent this time.

It also sends a message to China that Tiwan has strong allies.


I do agree that with better leadership we could of avoided having to make these choices but that is now water under the bridge and here we are now.

I think a measured military response by the western world gives Russia a lot to think about.

 

[braindrain]

Your position is completely fair and respectable. It was very similar to my own before I changed my mind.

1. We promised Ukraine our help if they gave up their nukes in the 90s. I think that promise should be honored.

2. Given the fight the Ukraines are putting up I think they deserve the worlds help. Russia is trying to steal their right to govern themselves.

3. It serves the interests of the western world to keep the Russians embroiled in this fight

4. I'm not so much worried about Russia launching nukes. That threat is Russias Trump card to negotiate it's way out of a total surrender and I don't see them doing it when the possibility that they can gives them more leverage.

5. The bigger threat they pose is a cyber war. That does concern me.

6. What also concerns me is who would ally with them, China, Iran, possibly India? It could be come the East vs the Western World.

It is scary stuff which is why I respect your position of wanting to do everything possible to avoid it. I don't think they are anxious to go down that road either and a strong front might be the better deterrent this time.

It also sends a message to China that Tiwan has strong allies.


I do agree that with better leadership we could of avoided having to make these choices but that is now water under the bridge and here we are now.

I think a measured military response by the western world gives Russia a lot to think about.

I get your opinion and am not faulting you for it. And as I am sure you agree this is a very complicated and difficult situation.

My opinion of Ukraine not being worth risking ww3 does not come easily for me as I agree we shouldn’t be making commitments and not honoring them. I am pretty divided on this to be honest.

I agree that Russia using nukes is not likely. But it’s still a massive risk. Not that long ago many people thought that Putin invading Ukraine was not likely. My opinion is the stakes are simply to high.

I am all for supporting Ukraine in many other ways. Such as arming them, letting some of my brothers from 10th SFG continue to train advise and assist them and sanctioning the ever living shit out of Russia.

We as a country and Europe have done a great job of funding our biggest enemies. With China being the best example and Russia a close second. Sooner or later we are going to pay that bill and half of it is coming due now.

While I agree that the nuclear threat is not as big as the cyber threat. But when planning you have to consider both the enemies most likely course of action as well as their most deadly. And honestly a massive cyber attack is something that is not to be taken lightly. Not saying you are but it is just one more reason we need to be very very careful here.

The issue become when that measured military response provokes the Russians to up the stakes. What then.

 

[trouble13]

I get your opinion and am not faulting you for it. And as I am sure you agree this is a very complicated and difficult situation.

My opinion of Ukraine not being worth risking ww3 does not come easily for me as I agree we shouldn’t be making commitments and not honoring them. I am pretty divided on this to be honest.

I agree that Russia using nukes is not likely. But it’s still a massive risk. Not that long ago many people thought that Putin invading Ukraine was not likely. My opinion is the stakes are simply to high.

I am all for supporting Ukraine in many other ways. Such as arming them, letting some of my brothers from 10th SFG continue to train advise and assist them and sanctioning the ever living shit out of Russia.

We as a country and Europe have done a great job of funding our biggest enemies. With China being the best example and Russia a close second. Sooner or later we are going to pay that bill and half of it is coming due now.

While I agree that the nuclear threat is not as big as the cyber threat. But when planning you have to consider both the enemies most likely course of action as well as their most deadly. And honestly a massive cyber attack is something that is not to be taken lightly. Not saying you are but it is just one more reason we need to be very very careful here.

The issue become when that measured military response provokes the Russians to up the stakes. What then.

I'm with you on being on the fence. It is a complicated decision. Its also a matter that we have limited knowledge on. Whether we like it or not it's one of those things that we are forced to trust our leaders to make the best call. They have intelligence that we don't.

 

[ClaraD]

The Russians asked for a neutral Ukraine, but the hawks now lording over the West refused. The warmongers inside Washington DC are even destroying America from the inside, playing divide-and-rule there through deliberately divisive identity politics, and even trying to oust their own president by falsely calling him a stooge of Russia after he dared to challenge support for NATO. Even America's Supreme Court is now being subverted. Imperialist warmongering is eroding America's own national institutions, and replacing them with institutions of empire. The American people must wake up before it's too late.

The Russians don't get to dictate what side Ukraine is on.

 

[poweRob]

One slip up and they'll swarm in. It will just take one.

On another note, Ukraine's former president is bad ass. He picked up a weapon and is out there fighting with his country.

Yeah you don't want to **** with Ukranians apparently.

 

[poweRob]

Swarm in where? Into Ukraine, to fight the Russian army directly?? Are you kidding?

Russia is reacting to what they see as a mortal threat to their survival -- ie. expansion of NATO right up to their borders. It's rather natural that they'll react by doing whatever it takes to survive. The answer is not to trigger their basic survival instinct -- especially not for frivolous reasons of NATO expansionism. Ukraine is a divided society, with sharply differing opinions and leanings on East vs West relations. The answer to that is FEDERALISM, and not some 2014 street mob doing a Capitol Insurrection street coup to impose their will on the entire country, like some game of winner-take-all. The Zelensky govt in Ukraine has imprisoned political opponents and shut down critical media in a country with sharp political divisions, and where one third of the country is Russian-speaking. What NATO & EU should have done is to assert high standards on democratic norms for any applicants for membership -- and informed Zelensky of the need to mend his ways and his politics. We're seeing the same problem in the USA, with an iron-fisted Democrat Left who want to impose their iron-handed rule on all Americans, whether through lockdowns or stacking the US Supreme Court. These kinds of overreaching stunts will only result in a desperate backlash from an aggrieved American people, who will no doubt be similarly vilified by the media like Putin.

Oh really? NATO scares him? Becuase Putin said he had to cleanse Ukraine of NAZI's. You might want to read your instructoins again.

 

[Hamish Howl]

The Russians asked for a neutral Ukraine, but the hawks now lording over the West refused. The warmongers inside Washington DC are even destroying America from the inside, playing divide-and-rule there through deliberately divisive identity politics, and even trying to oust their own president by falsely calling him a stooge of Russia after he dared to challenge support for NATO. Even America's Supreme Court is now being subverted. Imperialist warmongering is eroding America's own national institutions, and replacing them with institutions of empire. The American people must wake up before it's too late.

Your post sounds like a spousal abuser justifying his actions.

 

[wist43]

I guess all those innocent citizens in Europe that were murdered by NATO forces in Operation Gladio - their deaths were not in vain, huh??

I'm sure their families would not agree, but they're just a bunch of whiners

The U.S. needs to get out of NATO.

 

[Hamish Howl]

I guess all those innocent citizens in Europe that were murdered by NATO forces in Operation Gladio - their deaths were not in vain, huh??

I'm sure their families would not agree, but they're just a bunch of whiners

The U.S. needs to get out of NATO.

Thanks for the advice, Tovarish.

 

[Ginger Ale]

Yeah you don't want to **** with Ukranians apparently.

LMAO, well, at least there's still a bit of humor over there.

 

[tres borrachos]

I need to correct it, it's there former president. Sorry about that. Still, bad ass!

Former Ukrainian President is Armed on The Streets of Kyiv

townhall.com

Very bad ass!

 

[Grasshopper121212]

Your opinion against Russian propaganda doesn't make it so.

So, you are pro-Russian war crimes? Is this what you are saying?