Nationalism - - - A Good Thing Or A Bad Thing?

[KevinKohler]

Pride is one of the 7 deadly sins for a reason.

 

[Logophile]

Nationalism - - - Is It A Good Thing Or A Bad Thing?

Before voting let's define what Nationalism actually is. Many confuse Nationalism with Patriotism. These terms are "closely linked", but not the same. And many conflate Nationalism with Isolationism, which of course is incorrect - one doesn't need to be isolationist to be nationalist, and vice versa.

Wikipedia says this about Nationalism:

Nationalism is an idea and movement that holds that the nation should be congruent with the state. As a movement, nationalism tends to promote the interests of a particular nation (as in a group of people), especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland.

Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power (popular sovereignty). It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history, and to promote national unity or solidarity. Nationalism seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional cultures and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements. It also encourages pride in national achievements and is closely linked to patriotism.

Nobody can see who voted, so be honest - - don't vote how you think others would want you to vote.

I think nationalism - to a degree - preserves a nation. But as you pointed out, nationalism and patriotism are not quite the same terms. I'm a proponent of patriotism, no question about it. My reluctance to embrace nationalism is that it doesn't embrace multi-culturalism. And we've learned so much - all of us - by virtue of our melting pot. That said, I see a destructive force on the rise that doesn't appreciate this nation, mostly its freedom. In part, it's a rejection - not of faith - but of Judaic-Christian values. It's unsettling But, that said, I think the majority of Americans still value the country and are committed to its Constitutional principles. That destructive force, methinks, will diminish in time. Thanks!!

 

[Dans La Lune]

Nationalism, like populism, makes humans stupid.

Disagree. Left wing populism is generally constructive and can rally the people towards a common good; right-wing populism is basically synonymous with fascism.

Nationalism is universally bad; that the interests of your nation (and what you think those interests entail) supersede all others. This is the default setting for the right-wing. It's an expansion of the selfish mindset to a global scale.

 

[eohrnberger]

“Greatest nation on earth” is a fascist phrase.

I strongly disagree.

No need to degrade our country, as we have made extraordinary contributions to freedom in the world. But we have also acted as a repressive tyranny, crushing democracy in other countries as have other empires like the Soviet Union, Britain, France, etc.

Meh. I think that if you tot up the body count, you'll still see the Communists far far ahead on that front. If you tot up the instances and severity of all these this you claim, I think the US still comes out on the plus side of the ledger.

The notion that we are the greatest nation on earth is laughable, but understandable, as that is what deluded citizens of other empires have thought. Ask people in countries we have invaded, whose elected government we replaced with brutal dictatorships, what they think about our greatness.

'No need to degrade our country' (and denigrate) and here you are, doing just that. If it really bothers you so much, might I suggest you relocating as an option?

 

[jonny5]

Nationalism - - - Is It A Good Thing Or A Bad Thing?

Before voting let's define what Nationalism actually is. Many confuse Nationalism with Patriotism. These terms are "closely linked", but not the same. And many conflate Nationalism with Isolationism, which of course is incorrect - one doesn't need to be isolationist to be nationalist, and vice versa.

Wikipedia says this about Nationalism:

Nationalism is an idea and movement that holds that the nation should be congruent with the state. As a movement, nationalism tends to promote the interests of a particular nation (as in a group of people), especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland.

Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power (popular sovereignty). It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history, and to promote national unity or solidarity. Nationalism seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional cultures and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements. It also encourages pride in national achievements and is closely linked to patriotism.

Nobody can see who voted, so be honest - - don't vote how you think others would want you to vote.

Whats your opinion?

 

[AGENT J]

Nationalism - - - Is It A Good Thing Or A Bad Thing?

Before voting let's define what Nationalism actually is. Many confuse Nationalism with Patriotism. These terms are "closely linked", but not the same. And many conflate Nationalism with Isolationism, which of course is incorrect - one doesn't need to be isolationist to be nationalist, and vice versa.

Wikipedia says this about Nationalism:

Nationalism is an idea and movement that holds that the nation should be congruent with the state. As a movement, nationalism tends to promote the interests of a particular nation (as in a group of people), especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland.

Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power (popular sovereignty). It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history, and to promote national unity or solidarity. Nationalism seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional cultures and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements. It also encourages pride in national achievements and is closely linked to patriotism.

Nobody can see who voted, so be honest - - don't vote how you think others would want you to vote.

Icant both because theres no both or neither option

Nationalism can be good is aspects and it can be pure evil in others.

 

[SkyChief]

Whats your opinion?

In the purest definition of the word, Nationalism is good.

"[Nationalism] further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history, and to promote national unity or solidarity."

Presumably, most peoples of the world are proud of their respective countries, and are nationalist (at least to some degree).

As seen in some of the above posts in this thread, many conflate nationalism with isolationism and thus feel compelled to denigrate it. It's why I wanted everyone to be clear on the actual meaning of the word. Clearly, not everyone is.

Nationalism has the potential of being bad when taken to extremes - - which holds true for any of the isms.

 

[jonny5]

In the purest definition of the word, Nationalism is good.

"[Nationalism] further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history, and to promote national unity or solidarity."

Presumably, most peoples of the world are proud of their respective countries, and are nationalist (at least to some degree).

As seen in some of the above posts in this thread, many conflate nationalism with isolationism and thus feel compelled to denigrate it. It's why I wanted everyone to be clear on the actual meaning of the word. Clearly, not everyone is.

Nationalism has the potential of being bad when taken to extremes - - which holds true for any of the isms.

I agree, in terms of putting the interests of your nation over other nations (in a peaceful way), nationalism is a good thing. In fact its natural for people to form groups that share ideals and then support them over other groups. Which is all a nation is. If it wasnt nationalism and we only had on global homogenous populace, there would still be factions which compete on shared beliefs.

I think the issue comes when nationalism exists for the sake of itself, without any real shared beleifs. Winning for winning sake, me vs you just because youre not me. To the point of using FORCE to defeat or assimilate others.

 

[Nickyjo]

i would hate to think what you are teaching your children and grandchildren

No nation is perfect....just like no person is perfect, or even close to it

We TRY....

We are built on certain principles and foundations in this country....that is what makes us GREAT....not our mistakes or our successes

Here....you can start a hot dog stand in one generation, and 2 generations later, have an empire of restaurants around the country

Here, we have the freedom to TRY new religions....to express ourselves whether it is a popular opinion or not

There are few limitations on the American people which is why so many from other countries want to live the American dream

So you can be smug and cost aspersions on our country if you like....

Me...i know it isnt perfect, but i know that it is better than most....and i do what i can to make it better everyday

I agree with most everything you said, but the notion that we are the greatest ever inspires a “US Uber Alles” mentality that allowed us to do things like Vietnam, to impose and support a vicious dictatorship that horribly murdered tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of its people in Guatemala and had Reagan praising its most notorious butcher. It also has people freaking out when something like the “1619 Project” appears. Our country has made extraordinary contributions to human freedom, the French revolutionaries praised Washington, and even Uncle Ho in Vietnam imitated our rhetoric. But it also has made awful contributions to human misery. When Jimmy Carter’s more even handed human rights policy was promulgated, some Latin American journals expressed dumbfounded-ness, as they were so used to US frequent support for tyranny in the hemisphere. (Reagan’s support for dictatorships corrected our course during his time.)

Your phrase “better than most” accurately describes what represents the US.

 

[gdgyva]

I agree with most everything you said, but the notion that we are the greatest ever inspires a “US Uber Alles” mentality that allowed us to do things like Vietnam, to impose and support a vicious dictatorship that horribly murdered tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of its people in Guatemala and had Reagan praising its most notorious butcher. It also has people freaking out when something like the “1619 Project” appears. Our country has made extraordinary contributions to human freedom, the French revolutionaries praised Washington, and even Uncle Ho in Vietnam imitated our rhetoric. But it also has made awful contributions to human misery. When Jimmy Carter’s more even handed human rights policy was promulgated, some Latin American journals expressed dumbfounded-ness, as they were so used to US frequent support for tyranny in the hemisphere. (Reagan’s support for dictatorships corrected our course during his time.)

Your phrase “better than most” accurately describes what represents the US.

We are the "greatest ever" only in one respect

the ideals on which we were founded....period

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Add in the Bill of Rights and those two ideals are what make us GREAT

we still happen to screw things up royally every so often....politically, socially, economically, hell every way you can probably think of

Again...we are far from perfect....but i have visited well over 50 countries spanning 5 continents, and i wouldnt want to live anywhere else

 

[Nickyjo]

We are the "greatest ever" only in one respect

the ideals on which we were founded....period

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Add in the Bill of Rights and those two ideals are what make us GREAT

we still happen to screw things up royally every so often....politically, socially, economically, hell every way you can probably think of

Again...we are far from perfect....but i have visited well over 50 countries spanning 5 continents, and i wouldnt want to live anywhere else

Agreed, though I might settle for an Italian hill town, southern Spain, or Guanajuato, so long as I had cable.

 

[pinqy]

In the purest definition of the word, Nationalism is good.

"[Nationalism] further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history, and to promote national unity or solidarity."

Presumably, most peoples of the world are proud of their respective countries, and are nationalist (at least to some degree).

Nation and country aren’t the same thing, though. For example, there are two distinct words that we translate as “Russian:” русский (russkiy) and российский (rossisskiy). The country, the government, the land, the military etc, are rossiskiy. But the language, culture, ethnicity, are russkiy. So someone from Dagestan may be a perfectly loyal and patriotic , but will never be russkiy. And in reverse, in eastern Ukraine, we see plenty of people whose families have lived in Ukraine for generations, but are russkiy.
Russian nationalism excludes non-ethnic Russian citizens and includes ethnic Russian non - citizens.

so when applied to the U.S, who is an ethnic American, part of the American nation/people as opposed to citizens or inhabitants? Traditionally, and in practice by nationalists, it means only White Anglo-Saxon Protestants, though the Anglo-Saxon part has less emphasis.


yes I have overly simplified.

 

[SkyChief]

Nation and country aren’t the same thing, though. For example, there are two distinct words that we translate as “Russian:” русский (russkiy) and российский (rossisskiy). The country, the government, the land, the military etc, are rossiskiy. But the language, culture, ethnicity, are russkiy. So someone from Dagestan may be a perfectly loyal and patriotic , but will never be russkiy. And in reverse, in eastern Ukraine, we see plenty of people whose families have lived in Ukraine for generations, but are russkiy.
Russian nationalism excludes non-ethnic Russian citizens and includes ethnic Russian non - citizens.

so when applied to the U.S, who is an ethnic American, part of the American nation/people as opposed to citizens or inhabitants? Traditionally, and in practice by nationalists, it means only White Anglo-Saxon Protestants, though the Anglo-Saxon part has less emphasis.


yes I have overly simplified.

America is the #3 most ethnically diverse country in the world. Our culture and customs are American - meaning they are derived from cultures and customs from all over the world.

Nationalism in the US is good, because we take cultures from all over the world, and infuse them into our own.

People from all over the word risk life and limb to come to the U.S. The reason is that once they become naturalized, they become part of the "home" team. He or she will enjoy all the rights of a natural born U.S. citizen (with the exception of becoming president or vice-president).

 

[armycowboy]

Historically, nothing good has ever come from nationalism.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Disagree. Left wing populism is generally constructive and can rally the people towards a common good; right-wing populism is basically synonymous with fascism.

Nationalism is universally bad; that the interests of your nation (and what you think those interests entail) supersede all others. This is the default setting for the right-wing. It's an expansion of the selfish mindset to a global scale.

Nope. Populism gives you all the answers, and then discourages questions. It is dumb, and it makes people dumber than they strictly have to be. It becomes "true believers" vs "the elite". It is and incorrect simplification of complex problems.

For an example of how this functions on the left, criticize Bernie Sanders over anything and watch the results. It's the same thing you get when you criticize Trump, only in complete sentences.

Nationalism is just another flavor of that.

 

[The Baron]

Nationalism - - - Is It A Good Thing Or A Bad Thing?

Before voting let's define what Nationalism actually is. Many confuse Nationalism with Patriotism. These terms are "closely linked", but not the same. And many conflate Nationalism with Isolationism, which of course is incorrect - one doesn't need to be isolationist to be nationalist, and vice versa.

Wikipedia says this about Nationalism:

Nationalism is an idea and movement that holds that the nation should be congruent with the state. As a movement, nationalism tends to promote the interests of a particular nation (as in a group of people), especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining the nation's sovereignty (self-governance) over its homeland.

Nationalism holds that each nation should govern itself, free from outside interference (self-determination), that a nation is a natural and ideal basis for a polity and that the nation is the only rightful source of political power (popular sovereignty). It further aims to build and maintain a single national identity, based on shared social characteristics of culture, ethnicity, geographic location, language, politics (or the government), religion, traditions and belief in a shared singular history, and to promote national unity or solidarity. Nationalism seeks to preserve and foster a nation's traditional cultures and cultural revivals have been associated with nationalist movements. It also encourages pride in national achievements and is closely linked to patriotism.

Nobody can see who voted, so be honest - - don't vote how you think others would want you to vote.

I don't know why promoting the best interest of America or "America First" would ever be considered a bad thing to American's. Other countries do so unashamedly. Why should we also accept the "short end of the stick"?

 

[The Baron]

Adolph thought it was pretty cool.

Adolf was a Socialist.

 

[Luce]

Adolf was a Socialist.

Yeah, and Kim Yong-Un is a democratic republican.

It's right in the DPRK's name.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Adolf was a Socialist.

 

[SkyChief]

I don't know why promoting the best interest of America or "America First" would ever be considered a bad thing to American's. Other countries do so unashamedly. Why should we also accept the "short end of the stick"?

Nationalism is inherently opposite to globalism.

The nationalist wants to preserve the culture and traditions of the homeland. He/she believes in national sovereignty.

The globalist wants to dissolve them - tear down statues of great leaders, and rewrite the history books in an effort to suppress patriotism. They believe that there should be a centralized world government that controls all countries.

Ignorant people often link nationalism to negative things like bigotry and xenophobia. It's a fairly common misconception as evident by some of the posts in this thread.

 

[Luce]

Nationalism is inherently opposite to globalism.

The nationalist wants to preserve the culture and traditions of the homeland. He/she believes in national sovereignty.

The globalist wants to dissolve them - tear down statues of great leaders, and rewrite the history books in an effort to suppress patriotism. They believe that there should be a centralized world government that controls all countries.

Ignorant people often link nationalism to negative things like bigotry and xenophobia. It's a fairly common misconception as evident by some of the posts in this thread.

We're also gonna ban country music.


Boo!

 

[The Baron]

Nationalism is inherently opposite to globalism.

The nationalist wants to preserve the culture and traditions of the homeland. He/she believes in national sovereignty.

The globalist wants to dissolve them - tear down statues of great leaders, and rewrite the history books in an effort to suppress patriotism. They believe that there should be a centralized world government that controls all countries.

Ignorant people often link nationalism to negative things like bigotry and xenophobia. It's a fairly common misconception as evident by some of the posts in this thread.

Well said.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

The OP took the quotes from Wikipedia:

Nationalism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

BUT I would encourage people to read the rest of the article on Wikipedia:

In practice, nationalism can be seen as positive or negative depending on context and individual outlook. Nationalism has been an important driver in independence movements such as the Greek Revolution, the Irish Revolution, the Zionist movement that created modern Israel and the dissolution of the Soviet Union.[20][21] Radical nationalism combined with racial hatred was also a key factor in the Holocaust perpetrated by Nazi Germany.[22] Nationalism was an important driver of the controversial annexation of Crimea by Russia.[23]

Nationalism is considered by its critics to be inherently divisive, as adherents may draw upon and highlight perceived differences between people, emphasizing an individual's identification with their own nation. They also consider the idea to be potentially oppressive, because it can submerge individual identity within a national whole and give elites or political leaders potential opportunities to manipulate or control the masses.
In his classic essay on the topic, George Orwell distinguishes nationalism from patriotism which he defines as devotion to a particular place. More abstractly, nationalism is "power-hunger tempered by self-deception".

Read the link, there is something for every taste in there, pro and con.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

Adolf was a Socialist.

LOL, someone who never studied history or believes because the party under Hitler was called National Socialist German Workers' Party - clearly someone who also doesn't understand propaganda, someone who might think the Rhinoceros party was actually made up of Rhinoceros!
BUT for those of us who actually understand history and the science of political movements:

The Nazi Party,[a] officially the National Socialist German Workers' Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterparteihttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party#cite_note-8 or NSDAP), was a far-right political party!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party

To say that Hitler understood the value of language would be an enormous understatement. Propaganda played a significant role in his rise to power. To that end, he paid lip service to the tenets suggested by a name like National Socialist German Workers’ Party, but his primary—indeed, sole—focus was on achieving power whatever the cost and advancing his racist, anti-Semitic agenda.

Were the Nazis Socialists? | Britannica

Were the Nazis socialists? No, not in any meaningful way, and certainly not after 1934.

www.britannica.com

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

Adolph thought it was pretty cool.

there are people on this thread that believe Hitler was a "socialist"!
those same people need to read my comment #49