Myth #1... Israel is "Stolen Land"

[mbig]

Instead of answering Scores of strings and posts here.. 95% of which are wrong, I decided to make some Basic/Basline informational posts on Jews and Israel.
This board is a wealth of Misinformation.

77% of British Mandate 'Palestine' was lopped and made Jordan, no Jews allowed.

Jordan is 70% 'Palestinian'.
Leaving the other 23% divided roughly 13-10 for the Jews.

Meaning the Arabs aka Palestinians got 87% of Mandate Palestine.
(the Pink AND Red Areas)

And ½ of the Jews 13% was the Negev Desert. (lower ½ the light Blue Area above)
So Jews really got about 6% of the usable land of the Original Mandate.
AND unlike in The surrounding states... Arabs still live in/make up 20% of Current Israel's population within that land.

2/3 of what became Israel was State Land, passing from the Ottomans, to the British, to the Jews; owned by NO Arab.
This Includes the Half alone of Israel that was/Is the Negev Desert.

and

Yes, the lower half of that little that red spot/Israel- is the Negev Desert, State Land under the Ottomans, owned by No Arab. (and about 15-20% more that was also state land). And 20% of the population of the upper half of the Red Dot- is Arab.

 

[mbig]

Further...
No Land Changed Hands when the UN created Israel AND Palestine.. Resolution 181.

It entailed Not a Single Arab having to move.
Displacement/refugees was the Result of the ARAB-started War/rejection of the partition.
Had they not started that war, they would probably be a majority in Israel now instead of the fully enfranchised 20% they are now.
-

 

[Marc39]

In addition to nearly 80% of the original parcel of land that was allocated by the League of Nations for a Jewish homeland being severed by the British and awarded, arbitrarily so, to the Hashemites from Saudi Arabian to create Jordan, also keep in mind even greater amounts of land went to the Arabs in the creation of Iraq, Lebanon and Syria. Jews need not apply for residency.

 

[Gardener]

What gets me about all the ninnies who simply repeat Arab propaganda without any real thought involved is how they are quick to call Jews racist for wanting the sort of self determination any other group wants, but the thought of a Jew living in Arab land? An abomination!! How many of the same anti"zionists" (and I use the quotes intentionally) turn around and claim that no Jew should be allowed on Palestinian land? I have counted so many I have lost track.


The true nature of racism is turned on its head.

 

[Marc39]

What gets me about all the ninnies who simply repeat Arab propaganda without any real thought involved is how they are quick to call Jews racist for wanting the sort of self determination any other group wants, but the thought of a Jew living in Arab land? An abomination!! How many of the same anti"zionists" (and I use the quotes intentionally) turn around and claim that no Jew should be allowed on Palestinian land? I have counted so many I have lost track.


The true nature of racism is turned on its head.

Recently passed legislation in Gaza prohibiting the sale of land to a Jew, punishable by death, assures Gaza of being Judenrein for the foreseable future. One Gazan was recently convicted of this crime and was sentenced to be hanged.

 

[Gardener]

Recently passed legislation in Gaza prohibiting the sale of land to a Jew, punishable by death, assures Gaza of being Judenrein for the foreseable future. One Gazan was recently convicted of this crime and was sentenced to be hanged.

Yep. And you can be certain that the same hypocrites support that.

For the record, too, Gaza had a Jewish community dating back 2000 years. Can't have any Jews there now, though!

Isn't support for racism under the guise that one is anti-racist a wonderful thing?

 

[tlmorg02]

I feel that a two-state solution is needed for an end to the Israel-Palestinian conflict, but I have always held that Israel should never give-up land obtained through the 67' war, as to the victors go the spoils.

 

[Jerry]

Instead of answering Scores of strings and posts here.. 95% of which are wrong, I decided to make some Basic/Basline informational posts on Jews and Israel.
This board is a wealth of Misinformation.

Forgive my ignorence but doesn't Exodus tell of the Jews invading the land and taking it by force? They fired the first shot, as it were.

 

[tlmorg02]

Forgive my ignorence but doesn't Exodus tell of the Jews invading the land and taking it by force? They fired the first shot, as it were.

As did our American ancestors of the Native Americans, should we give-up our land? And besides, God gave the land to the Hebrews, did he not instruct Moses on where to settle?

 

[Marc39]

For the record, too, Gaza had a Jewish community dating back 2000 years.

One ignoramus even dismissed a Jewish connection to Judea and Samaria, I kid you not, so, I'm posting this with him in mind, in particular...

By Anthony David Marks

In the minds of some there is confusion or lack of knowledge of the Jewish
biblical and modern historical connections to the Gaza Strip area. They are
more substantial than most realize. The following references should
elucidate the subject.

Biblically speaking:

1. Genesis 15 - The area in which Gaza is located was included as part of
Abraham's inheritance.

2. Numbers 34:2-6 - The Bible details precisely the northern, southern,
eastern and western borders of ancient Israel. Readers should note that in
every reference there is a body of water - the Mediterranean Sea, a lake, a
river and a wadi (a dry river bed that flows only after an infrequent heavy
rain). Bodies of water are permanent markers in most cases.
In Numbers 34:5 with reference to the southern border it states: From Azmon
the boundary shall turn towards the Wadi of Egypt (near el-Arish) and
terminate at the sea (Mediterranean). This would include the entire
present-day Gaza Strip and additional land in the Sinai.

3. Joshua 13:2 - The Lord said to Joshua: This is the territory that remains
to be conquered: all the districts of the Philistines, those of the
Gerurites, from the Shihon, which is close to Egypt, to the territory of
Ekron in the north, are accounted. Canaanite, namely those of the five lords
of the Philistines - the Gazities (Gaza), the Ashdodites (Ashdod) etcS<caron>.

4. Joshua 15:47 - Most Biblical commentators hold that the modern day Gaza
Strip was within the territory allotted to the tribe of Judah.

5. Consider in Joshua Chapter 15: This was the portion of the tribe of Judea
(15:20); Ekron, with its dependencies and villages (15:45); Ekron, westward,
all the towns in the vicinity and Ashdod, with their villages (15:46);
Ashdod, its dependencies and its villages, Gaza, its dependencies and its
villages, all the way to the Wadi of Egypt and the edge of the Mediterranean
Sea (15:47).

6. Judges 1:18 - And Israel captured Gaza and its territory, Ashkelon and
its territory, and Ekron and its territory.

7. Kings 5:1 - Solomon's rule extended over all the kingdoms from the
Euphrates to the land of the Philistines and the boundary of Egypt (Wadi of
Egypt or to el-Arish).

8. Ezekiel 47:19-20 - 47:19 The southern limit shall run: A line from Tamar
to the waters of Meriboth-kadesh, along the Wadi (of Egypt and ) the Great
Sea (Mediterranean). That is the southern limit.

Historically speaking:

* During the 3rd century BCE, Gaza and Akko were the leading centers of
trade and industry. Both cities had numerous Jewish residents, including
some very wealthy and influential families. [1]

* There were Jewish communities in Gaza during the Hasmonean period
(166-63 BCE).

* During ancient times, in the taking of tithes (shmittah), the Gaza area
was included in this Jewish religious obligation.
Shmittah is observed to this day in Jewish settlemens located in the Gaza
Strip as it was deemed part of ancient Eretz Israel.

* During the 4th century CE, Emperor Constantine attempted to build a
church in Gaza but the Jewish population located there was opposed to this.
At that time, Gaza was the principal port for trade and commerce for the
Jewish population of the Holy Land. A very ancient synagogue was excavated
there some time ago. Influential rabbis, Israel Najara, author of the
popular prayer and Shabbat song Kah Ribon Olam, and Rabbi Avraham Azoulai,
the renowned mekubal, lived in Gaza Jewish communities.

* During the 7th century CE: "When the Arab hosts now began spreading
northward, they encountered the first focus of resistance in the city of
Gaza, then occupied by a strong Byzantine garrison under the command of the
provincial governor, Sergius. At that time Gaza embraced a substantial
Jewish settlement, in fact the most important community in Judea. Jews seem
to have fought alongside the Byzantines in the ensuing battle, which ended
in Sergius' defeat." [2]

* Also during this period, "S<caron>according to the famous
grammarian, Jonah
ibn Janah, Gaza, too, lost its status as the foremost community in Judea,
but it remained a center of learning and well-developed community life." [3]

* From 1885 to World War I Jews lived in Gaza.

* A renewed Jewish community existed in Gaza until the Muslim pogroms
against Jews in 1929. Jews were murdered in many communities throughout
Palestine, especially Jerusalem, Hebron and Safed - three Jewish holy
cities.

The following is a list of Jewish communities in the Gaza Strip:

Alei Sinai, founded in 1983
Bedolach, founded in 1986
Bnei Atzmon (Atzmona), founded in 1979
Dugit, founded in 1990
Gadid, founded in 1982
Gan-Or, founded in 1983
Ganei Tal, founded in 1979
Katif, founded in 1986
Kerem Atzmona, founded in 2000
Kfar Darom, founded in 1946
Kfar Yam, founded in 1984
Morag, founded in 1984
Netzer Hazani, founded in 1977
Netzarim, founded in 1984
Neve Dekalim, founded in 1983
Nisanit, founded in 1984
Peat - Sadeh, founded in 1989
Rafiah - Yam, founded in 1986
Shirat HaYam, founded in 2000
Tel Katifa, founded in 1992

Recent quotes from leading Israeli politicians about Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's Disengagement Plan for Gaza:

Natan Sharansky, Minister without Portfolio:

Minister Natan Sharansky, part of the Likud Party said in a radio interview the move would give a big boost to terrorism while dividing Israelis.
Maybe I'm stupid, but I don't understand why we are doing something so painful and dramatic at a time of war on terror."

Moshe Arens, former three-time Minister of Defense:

"I don't want to suspect [Sharon] and believe that the timing [of his statement regarding Arafat] is connected to the referendum
know that he and his aides are very determined to pass this thing, and bring up all sorts of claims in its favor, some of which are not valid. We are right in the middle of the war, and we're
making gains - we're even hearing various Arab spokesmen say that terrorism is not gaining them anything, and the like - and therefore this is not precisely a smart time to
retreat. As the Chief of Staff said, a retreat from Gaza will strengthen and encourage the terrorists. Even President Bush has said that the main thing is to dismantle and destroy the terrorist infrastructure - so now we should
give them territory?"
"The American policy is quite stable, long-standing and does
not change from day to day, and I don't think it will worsen if the disengagement doesn't pass."

Benny Begin, former Likud Minister, speaking on national TV 19 April 2004:

"The truth must be told. This is a plan to evacuate the
communities in Gaza and northern Samaria, and nothing else. It will allow Hamas to unfurl its flag over the synagogues in Neve Dekalim."
"we all know if we leave Gaza, terrorism will increase and
the situation will deteriorate."
"According to this plan, who will provide electricity to
Gaza? - Israel.
And who will provide food to Gaza? -
IsraelS.This is precisely the
situation today."
"It's absurd to speak of disengaging when Sharon's plan
states that the IDF will maintain security in Gaza, and will permit workers to cross into (pre-
1967) Israel daily. This is not disengagementS<caron>S<caron>"
The above information is by no means a complete account of the Jewish connection from time immemorial to the area now known as the Gaza Strip, only an indication of it. But it is obvious from the above references that there was a distinct and undeniable Jewish presence in the Gaza Strip area from ancient times. In modern times, in 1929, Jews were forced to leave the
area just as they were forced to flee Arab countries and Europe. This time a Jewish government is forcing them to leave.

Notes:
[1] A Social and Religious History of the Jews, Salo Wittmayer Baron, Vol 1,
page 255, (Original copyright 1937)
[2] Ibid, Vol 3, page 87
[3] Ibid, page 102

 

[Jerry]

As did our American ancestors of the Native Americans, should we give-up our land?

Am I arguing any such thing, or just trying to get the facts straight?

Calm down Mr.Difencive.

And besides, God gave the land to the Hebrews, did he not instruct Moses on where to settle?

There has to be more to it than that.

There's to much "God told me to" being tossed around to justify all kinds of things.

 

[Marc39]

There's to much "God told me to" being tossed around to justify all kinds of things.

OK, how about the League of Nations making a Jewish homeland in Palestine legal and the UN finalizing things by granting Israel sovereignty?

 

[tlmorg02]

Am I arguing any such thing, or just trying to get the facts straight?

Calm down Mr.Difencive.



There has to be more to it than that.

There's to much "God told me to" being tossed around to justify all kinds of things.

I was just having some fun, no defense. My actual thoughts on the subject is that in one way or another, every great culture and/or nation, has at some point conquered the lands of another. The question in these modern times is how do now attempt to live in a peaceful global society?

Neoliberalists argue that economic interconnectivity is the best means for spreading peace and they argue the fact that no two democracies have ever went to war. Therefor, if capitalism is the way, as it appears to be in the case of Sino-U.S. relations, then perhaps rather than attempting constant negotiations, the world powers should focus on building-up the economies of these ME nations and especially Palestine. If Israel can help build a real Palestinian economy, then they will win the hearts of the majority of the people, rather than focus on the crazy zealots who will never stop while there is a platform for them to stand upon.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Jerry]

OK, how about the League of Nations making a Jewish homeland in Palestine legal and the UN finalizing things by granting Israel sovereignty?

The UN is incapable of solving the problem.

I fear that war is the only solution because Palestinians want Jews eradicated.

 

[mbig]

At this point you're right.
The UN is not only ineffective but an anti-Israel machine. Comprising resolutions, Rights dept, etc.

And the Palestinians, beside wanting to Off the Jews, can't even form a 'unity' government between Hamastan/Gaza and Fatah/The WB, tho they are speaking to do so as I post.

They realize they're no hope for them lest they come up with at least a tenouous plan to get a state.
Then they can go at it again once they do.
You can't bring up/Indoctrinate a society with violence like they do and not have them turn on each eventually.. or when say a Fence is built and they can't kill Jews.

 

[Jenin]

jews owned only 6 percent of land in palestine, yet they were given 55% by the UN through a partition plan devised by the imperial powers of the time in collaboration with zionist figures.

The partition plan was rejected by the palestinian people and other arabs and the ensuing war resulted in the expultion of most palestinians and the confiscation of their lands through the "Absentee Law".

The 1967 war allowed Israel to occupy east jerusalem and the west bank, where intensive colonization of stolen land owned by palestinians has resulted in nearly half a million settlers disecting by demography and settlement geography arab east jerusalem from the west bank.

Israel robbed palestine naked and that's the god awful truth.

 

[mbig]

jews owned only 6 percent of land in palestine, yet they were given 55% by the UN through a partition plan devised by the imperial powers of the time in collaboration with zionist figures.

I guess you didn't read. And the only thing "Massacred' at Jenin was the Truth.

The Ottomans owned about 70% of the Land that became Israel .. including the 50% that was the Negev Desert alone.
All owned by NO Arab. There goes your whole claimed percentage in a single thought-worthless arid parcel.

The partition plan was rejected by the palestinian people and other arabs and the ensuing war resulted in the expultion of most palestinians ...

Yes. That's true.
It was the ARAB STARTED WAR that resulted in Refugees and lost land.. not any Theft.
Thanks bro.

The 1967 war allowed Israel to occupy east jerusalem and the west bank, where intensive colonization of stolen land owned by palestinians ....

Uh.. Israel won any currently 1967 Occupied land from Jordan, who had Annexed the West Bank in 1950.
There was No Palestine, nor palestinians until Arabs lost the War.
You can thank Israel for your invented nationality and future state.

Israel robbed palestine naked and that's the god awful truth.

Actually I showed that wasn't true and you haven't rebutted it all.. or even read my post.

 

[Oftencold]

Here's my take on the modern State of Israel. They have been willing to make peace with their neighbors since their founding.

Almost every country comes into being under questionable circumstances, Israel is not special in that regard.

The response of most Arab nations has been savagery, murder, war, violence, hatred and death, visited upon Israel, foreign countries, uninvolved individuals, and even their own children.

I therefore side with Israel, and would be quite pleased is they annexed the whole of Palestine and expelled the barbarian horde currently residing there.

The best solution to war is peace.

The second best solution to war is total victory.

As the Muslim World rejects the former, I encourage Israel to embrace the latter.

 

[Oftencold]

Israel robbed palestine naked and that's the god awful truth.

If they did, then sadly that is a good thing. The Palestinians as a group, with, I am sure, large numbers of notable individual exceptions, have shown themselves to be a blight upon civilization.

This is harsh, but true. Understand that I refer to a cultural identity and not to a racial one.

 

[Marc39]

jews owned only 6 percent of land in palestine, yet they were given 55% by the UN through a partition plan devised by the imperial powers of the time in collaboration with zionist figures.

The partition plan was rejected by the palestinian people and other arabs and the ensuing war resulted in the expultion of most palestinians and the confiscation of their lands through the "Absentee Law".

The 1967 war allowed Israel to occupy east jerusalem and the west bank, where intensive colonization of stolen land owned by palestinians has resulted in nearly half a million settlers disecting by demography and settlement geography arab east jerusalem from the west bank.

Israel robbed palestine naked and that's the god awful truth.

You conveniently overlooked the fact that 80% of the original parcel of land allocated for the Jewish homeland, what is now Jordan, was arbitrarily severed off and given to the Arabs. That dog just won't hunt, as they say.

 

[Jenin]

You conveniently overlooked the fact that 80% of the original parcel of land allocated for the Jewish homeland, what is now Jordan, was arbitrarily severed off and given to the Arabs. That dog just won't hunt, as they say.

Jordan is not palestine. Jordan was the leftovers of the imperial carvings of Iraq, Syria, and Saudi arabia.

It is dishonest and really an outright joan peters myth to claim palestine extends to jordan.

 

[Real Talk]

IM sick of all of this talk of %'s of land that are designed to denegrate the fact that land is inhabited by PEOPLE.
When land was given to Israel by the British mandate, these PEOPLES homes were lost. And there land was occupied by colonists. Totaly against their will, and not as a result of any wrong doing on the part of them selves.

We should not be talking of how bigger percentage of the british mandate became Jordan, and how much Israel. And how much Palestine (in limbo).
But the fact that these people were evicted from their homes on unjust terms.

 

[Real Talk]

jews owned only 6 percent of land in palestine, yet they were given 55% by the UN through a partition plan devised by the imperial powers of the time in collaboration with zionist figures.

The partition plan was rejected by the palestinian people and other arabs and the ensuing war resulted in the expultion of most palestinians and the confiscation of their lands through the "Absentee Law".

The 1967 war allowed Israel to occupy east jerusalem and the west bank, where intensive colonization of stolen land owned by palestinians has resulted in nearly half a million settlers disecting by demography and settlement geography arab east jerusalem from the west bank.

Israel robbed palestine naked and that's the god awful truth.

Look at this map.
Each square that is white, this was once peoples land. And it should have never been usurped.

 

[Jenin]

The Ottomans owned about 70% of the Land that became Israel .. including the 50% that was the Negev Desert alone.

Ottomans "owned" palestine? They ruled the palestine and her people as subjects of the ottoman caliphate. The negev was the homeland of several palestinian beduin tribes that lived there for centuries. Jews owned only 6%. And this figure was reached after intensive efforts to purchase as much palestinian land as possible. Palestinians dwelled in every major city and lived in villages, towns and farmin communities all over palestine. The majority of palestinians had ownership deeds predating israel's establishment. The Israeli government confiscated most palestinian property through the absentee law, in which palestinians expelled were not allowed to return and their lands and homes became the property of the state, allocated to jewish settlers and government.

 

[Jenin]

How Palestinian Property Was Seized

Author:
Henry Siegman, Former Senior Fellow and Director for the U.S./Middle East Project, Council on Foreign Relations

January 27, 2005
International Herald Tribune

According to reports in the Israeli media, a ministerial committee of the Israeli government met last July 8 and adopted a resolution -- neither publicly announced nor published in the official government gazette, but "legal" nonetheless -- to confiscate thousands of dunams of land (by some estimates, nearly half the land in East Jerusalem) from its Arab owners.

The state of Israel has become the official owner of these vast holdings, without its real owners being able to appeal the decision or entitled to so much as one shekel in compensation.

The government of Israel committed this injustice by applying to Jerusalem the Absentee Property Law that was enacted by Israel in 1950 to enable it to confiscate the property of Palestinians who had fled or were expelled from the new state in the period between November 1947 and September 1948.

The 1950 law categorized Arabs who were "outside the territory of Israel" (i.e. in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip or elsewhere) as absentees whose property would be transferred to a "Custodian of Absentee Property," with no appeal or compensation.

When Israel annexed East Jerusalem following the 1967 war, it enlarged it from its previous 38 square kilometers to 108 by incorporating 28 Arab villages and towns that had not been part of the city. Technically, according the 1950 law, Arab residents of Bethlehem -- parts of whose lands were now in East Jerusalem while their adjoining houses remained in Bethlehem -- could be considered "absentee landlords." However, Israel's attorney general noted in 1950 that it is impossible to designate as absentee landlords people who can come across the new municipal boundary of Jerusalem "at any moment and attest they exist and claim their property."

But fully half a century after the law's enactment, the government of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon decided that what was impossible for its predecessors is possible for them, and surreptitiously applied the 1950 law to Jerusalem and to Palestinians who are separated from their land only by Israel's decision to redraw Jerusalem's municipal boundaries.

They are now considered absentees who have abandoned their property and whose whereabouts are unknown, even if they live only a few yards from their confiscated lands.

I was born in Frankfurt, Germany, in 1930, a few years before Germany's government was taken over -- constitutionally -- by the Nazi Party. In the mid- and late '30s, this government "legally" deprived Germany's Jews of their professions, livelihoods and property. These injustices provoked not much outrage on the part of the German people.

Like the measures taken by the German government in the '30s, Israel's theft of Palestinian property in East Jerusalem occurred within the law, and provoked no outrage from Israelis -- either from the right, or from Sharon's new Labor partners.

Many of these same Palestinians recently had part of their property confiscated by Israel for the construction of the separation fence. When the fence was completed, these Palestinians found themselves cut off from the rest of their property.

Now, as they petition Israel's courts to be given access to their lands across the fence, many of them are being told it actually is no longer their land at all, nor will they receive any compensation for it.

It sounds too unjust, too evil, to be true, particularly for a Jewish state that considers its very existence a living reproach to the German people, and to the world, for the injustices and suffering inflicted on the Jewish people. But the details of Israel's manipulations of the legal system and its theft of Palestinian lands are described in the Israeli media for all to read and see.

Predictably, Israel is invoking security to justify its behavior, as it has invoked that elastic concept to justify other injustices -- as if robbing people of property and possessions that have been in their families for generations can be seen as enhancing Israel's security. In fact, it is being done for political reasons, and out of sheer greed.

How Palestinian Property Was Seized - Council on Foreign Relations