"My Name Used to Be #200343"

[26 X World Champs]

lmfao what abuses? The only thing that was mentioned in the article is food deprivation, aww did he go to bwed hungwy? Woopedy ****.

How surprising that you, the person who loves the word appeasement has the good sense to make fun of another American who has been falsely detained and tortured...NOT!

This is a military veteran that you're crapping all over. Just another fine example of the hypocrisy of those who PRETEND to support our troops and then toss them to the wolves as soon as their precious little Neocon torturers take over.

Grotesque! Again!

 

[26 X World Champs]

Does this guy have anything to support his claims other than his own account? There are a lot of things about this story that sound a bit off...



Has the FBI acknowledged this, or does he have any corroborating evidence?



This sounds a bit more plausible...whether or not the guy's story about the FBI is true, if the company where he works was involved in smuggling arms to insurgents, its not at all a big leap to claim that he was involved somehow. Of course, he's not going to admit to such a thing when he's got a fat lawsuit pending.




Does he have any evidence to support this assertion, or is it just his own interpretation of events?



It's a crappy story if true, but I don't put much faith in something claimed by one guy with absolutely no corroborating evidence.

How about some sources for your claims, please? I'm amazed that you would post quotes without providing verifiable links.

Is it because the sources are not reputable or did you forget to source them?

 

[Inuyasha]

If it is true do you think any government agency is going own up to such a king size FUBAR? Get real. I'd bury the papers on the friggen moon FCS.

 

[RightinNYC]

How about some sources for your claims, please? I'm amazed that you would post quotes without providing verifiable links.

Is it because the sources are not reputable or did you forget to source them?

The New York Times > Log In

Apologies, got them all from here. Unsure if that link works for everyone, but regardless, its the NYT.

 

[Skip]

As has been pointed out there are holes in this guys story and no one but him corrobarates said story.

So let's say he's not lying about everything and the story is true. Still have the same attitude about a noble American who went to Iraq for you? What blatant hypocricy.

 

[26 X World Champs]

The New York Times > Log In

Apologies, got them all from here. Unsure if that link works for everyone, but regardless, its the NYT.

Thank you but it does appear that you were a bit creative in your editing of the story to make it sound like the piece was leaning towards discounting Vance's claims when in fact the piece was quite revealing regarding the abuses. For example:

But when American soldiers raided the company at his urging, Mr. Vance and another American who worked there were detained as suspects by the military, which was unaware that Mr. Vance was an informer, according to officials and military documents.

AND:

Nathan Ertel, the American held with Mr. Vance, brought away military records that shed further light on the detention camp and its secretive tribunals. Those records include a legal memorandum explicitly denying detainees the right to a lawyer at detention hearings to determine whether they should be released or held indefinitely, perhaps for prosecution.

Not to mention:

''Internee Vance indicated a large weapons cache was in the compound in the house next door,'' Capt. Plymouth D. Nelson, a military detention official, wrote in a memorandum dated April 22, after the men were detained. ''A search of the house and grounds revealed two large weapons caches.''

On the evening of April 15, they met with American officials at the embassy and stayed overnight. But just before dawn, they were awakened, handcuffed with zip ties and made to wear goggles with lenses covered by duct tape. Put into a Humvee, Mr. Vance said he asked for a vest and helmet, and was refused.

Or this outrageous fact:

On May 7, the Camp Cropper detention board met again, without either man present, and determined that Mr. Ertel was ''an innocent civilian,'' according to the spokeswoman for detention operations. It took authorities 18 more days to release him.

You also cropped a major and important part out of this quote to make it sound like there was confusion in his story when in fact the timeline is absolutely correct. Here's what it said in total:

Mr. Vance said that he wrote 10 letters to Ms. Schwarz, but that only one made it to Chicago. Dated July 17, it was delivered late last month by the Red Cross.

Then this part was revealing too regarding the creditability of his captors:

The military has never explained why it continued to consider Mr. Vance a security threat, except to say that officials decided to release him after further review of his case.

''Treating an American citizen in this fashion would have been unimaginable before 9/11,'' said Mike Kanovitz, a Chicago lawyer representing Mr. Vance.

On July 20, Mr. Vance wrote in his notes: ''Told 'Leaving Today.' Took shower and shaved, saw doctor, got civ clothes back and passport.''

On his way out, Mr. Vance said: ''They asked me if I was intending to write a book, would I talk to the press, would I be thinking of getting an attorney. I took it as, 'Shut up, don't talk about this place,' and I kept saying, 'No sir, I want to go home.' ''

Source: The New York Times > Log In

Truly what you posted and what the article said and meant to say were quite different. Your post made it sound like it was highly likely that Vance was lying but this story actually makes it sound like the Military is the one lying.

 

[RightinNYC]

Thank you but it does appear that you were a bit creative in your editing of the story to make it sound like the piece was leaning towards discounting Vance's claims when in fact the piece was quite revealing regarding the abuses. For example:

AND:

Not to mention:

Or this outrageous fact:

You also cropped a major and important part out of this quote to make it sound like there was confusion in his story when in fact the timeline is absolutely correct. Here's what it said in total:

Then this part was revealing too regarding the creditability of his captors:

Source: The New York Times > Log In

Truly what you posted and what the article said and meant to say were quite different. Your post made it sound like it was highly likely that Vance was lying but this story actually makes it sound like the Military is the one lying.

I don't believe that anything I posted was intended to imply that the article was discounting his claims (it's the NYT, for pete's sake, they're going to eat this stuff up and make the military sound as sinister as possible.)

The only things I posted were simple statements of facts that contradicted other supposed facts that he claimed. Nothing you posted about here resolves these conflicts.

 

[26 X World Champs]

I don't believe that anything I posted was intended to imply that the article was discounting his claims (it's the NYT, for pete's sake, they're going to eat this stuff up and make the military sound as sinister as possible.)

The only things I posted were simple statements of facts that contradicted other supposed facts that he claimed. Nothing you posted about here resolves these conflicts.

I think the creditability of our people who detained him and held him prisoner is less than Vance's because at the end of the day he was released, never charged and in fact had done nothing wrong. He was a sailor, a patriot and has nothing in his background to suggest that he is lying.

The truth is that he actually was turning in the people who employed him to save the lives of our soldiers. He's a hero and he was treated like he was a member of Al Qaeda. The torture and the lack of urgency that the military exhibited is quite revealing to the attitudes instilled by 6+ years of Bush Administration policies.

If you read the statements from the Pentagon they sound like bullshit and they sound like spin and they sound like it's a cover-up.

Vance should be regarded as a hero. Here's a man who risked his own life in the Navy then risked it again by working undercover for the FBI to expose weapons caches of our enemies. Note also that the weapons he reported were found and confiscated. How many lives did that discovery save?

 

[Willow]

On May 7, the Camp Cropper detention board met again, without either man present, and determined that Mr. Ertel was ''an innocent civilian,'' according to the spokeswoman for detention operations. It took authorities 18 more days to release him.

The last 18 days, he should not have been held and I have a problem with that but prior to them determining exactly who this guy was, I see no problem with the authorities holding him.
This guy was arrested because they thought he was who he was portraying himself to be. HE was pretending he was a bad guy and they believed him. As a former military man and as an FBI informer he should have been aware that this could happen. It's a dangerous job he took on and it's a risk he took on. This guy needs to take some personal responsibility for putting himself into a dangerous situation, if anyone failed him it was the FBI not the military, the military was doing their job and he was doing his.

 

[RightinNYC]

I think the creditability of our people who detained him and held him prisoner is less than Vance's because at the end of the day he was released, never charged and in fact had done nothing wrong.

Huh? Every day, people who commit crimes are arrested, interrogated, held, and eventually released because the evidence is not sufficient to prosecute. Doesn't mean they're innocent. I'm not saying the guy is guilty, but to declare that some guy you never heard of is trustworthy based on nothing but his own assertions is a bit much for me.

The truth is that he actually was turning in the people who employed him to save the lives of our soldiers. He's a hero and he was treated like he was a member of Al Qaeda. The torture and the lack of urgency that the military exhibited is quite revealing to the attitudes instilled by 6+ years of Bush Administration policies.

If you read the statements from the Pentagon they sound like bullshit and they sound like spin and they sound like it's a cover-up.

Vance should be regarded as a hero. Here's a man who risked his own life in the Navy then risked it again by working undercover for the FBI to expose weapons caches of our enemies. Note also that the weapons he reported were found and confiscated. How many lives did that discovery save?

Like I said, I'll wait for some corroborating evidence other than his own claims before I label this guy a hero.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Huh? Every day, people who commit crimes are arrested, interrogated, held, and eventually released because the evidence is not sufficient to prosecute. Doesn't mean they're innocent. I'm not saying the guy is guilty, but to declare that some guy you never heard of is trustworthy based on nothing but his own assertions is a bit much for me.



Like I said, I'll wait for some corroborating evidence other than his own claims before I label this guy a hero.

The very same NY Times story that you cited as questioning his honesty in fact was an article that spoke of his truthfulness. It also said that he had informed on his employer in Iraq which is what generated the raid and in fact what he said were there were found. Seems very black and white to me.

There's not one piece of evidence to support what his military captors have stated, nothing. There statements were semi-denials without corroboration and other than stating that Vance had not "filed a complaint at the time of being tortured" no other charges that he has made were denied.

Question? If you were being held prisoner and being tortured and if you actually did file formal complaints while in detention what do you believe the odds are that that complaint would be made public by the captors? Zero to me....not to mention if you're being tortured wouldn't there be a fear factor in filing a complaint that if you did it would subject you to more torture????

 

[BWG]

Why couldn't the government officials simply kept him in detention while they checked out his story?
If he was who he said he was, it could not have hurt military operations to pursue his claim, unless there is something there that we don't know about. (yes, I'm well aware that everyone detained, claims innocence)
Was the information the government seeking so important and vital that they had to rush interrogation?
Why all the zest and zeal?
We don't we give people the benefit of doubt? Innocent, until proven guilty?
They weren't caught in the act of terrorism or anything that I can tell that would be in opposition to the U.S. They were working for an Iraqi private security firm. Many, many Americans are working in Iraq for American, Iraq and foreign companies.
They called the military to rescue them and at least one person in the U.S. embassy knew they were there.

A U.S. military squad freed them from the red zone in Baghdad after a friend at the U.S. embassy advised him to call for help.

Question and detain, I can understand, while they are checking out their story. The other stuff, if true, unacceptable.

 

[RightinNYC]

The very same NY Times story that you cited as questioning his honesty in fact was an article that spoke of his truthfulness. It also said that he had informed on his employer in Iraq which is what generated the raid and in fact what he said were there were found. Seems very black and white to me.

I didn't say the NYT questioned his honesty, I questioned his honesty based on the contradiction between statements he made to the NYT and to other people.

There's not one piece of evidence to support what his military captors have stated, nothing. There statements were semi-denials without corroboration and other than stating that Vance had not "filed a complaint at the time of being tortured" no other charges that he has made were denied.

Question? If you were being held prisoner and being tortured and if you actually did file formal complaints while in detention what do you believe the odds are that that complaint would be made public by the captors? Zero to me....not to mention if you're being tortured wouldn't there be a fear factor in filing a complaint that if you did it would subject you to more torture????

You're misreading that portion there. They're not saying that he didn't file a complaint about being tortured while he was allegedly being tortured (I agree with you that nobody would do this), they're saying that at the time they were being interviewed by the NYT, months after he had been released back into the US, he had still declined to file a report claiming torture. Why is that?

 

[adamanarch]

First Valarie Plame, and now this? What is the government's obsession with making the lives of our undercover agents a living hell?

Seriously, incompetence at its finest.