Muslim immigrants in Europe: What shall we do? [W:67,W:115]

[mbig]

I would reply but it seems gunner already put you back in your box.

You are quite capable of replying, but after my destruction of your utterly fallacious post there is no answer.
Most understood that, but not all of course...
Enter gunner!

I don't know who's talking down to who, but if we take your post into consideration, I know who Should be talking down to who.

You will learn someday that talking down to the rest of the world is part of the problem.

I was Responding to Higgins who suggested his side should be doing it.
De-contexting a reply is dishonest. If you even know you're doing that is.

My reply was spawned by Higgins completely goofy take our respective immigrant problems. Of course he was using Your immigrants vs Saudi visa visitors here (ooops).. and didn't even mention home-grown 7/7 but, Irrelevantly that the largest terror attack was in the USA. Thougn not committed by our immigrants of any generation. Thus he's quite happy to let you post partisanly if aimlessly in his stead.

It wouldn't matter which terror attack was "the largest".
Almost as Inane as the second part... not realizing 7/7 was committed by Home Grown British Muslims (immigrants/sons of them) while 9/11 mostly by non-citizen Saudi Visa holders.

You show a massive misunderstanding of the 'Global Jihad' waged against Western powers. Because of this 'Global' movement and UK public opposition to the Iraq War those that have researched the subject are not that surprised (retrospectively) it happened. Do you honestly believe 7/7 would have happened if America had not been attacked first? And the UK decided on following America into Iraq?......

The conversation/reply was Not about Global Jihad. Which I certainly understand better than you do.
It was about whose side had the more radical Muslim population, and secondarily now, why.
It is sad one when one has to talk down.

Un.... believably fallacious post. And of course the 'like'. It's goofy enough to get at least 5 likes here.
The Fact Muslims immigrants are more successfully absorbed in America is generally not in dispute.
But hey - it's DP's Europe section.

America has most definitely integrated their Muslim portions of society. That said, you still suffer stray fanatics and the likes of Omar Hammami (until recently). That said,

"American Muslims are a unique American community when it comes to the issue of Afghanistan. While most Americans supported the American invasion of Afghanistan, most American Muslims believed the invasion was unjustified. In addition, many American Muslims feel a religious connection to the Afghan people, as fellow Muslims."
Muslims For A Safe America » Do American Muslims Think The Afghan War Is Worth Fighting?
The UK, ..."A majority of British Muslims are against military action in Afghanistan, a poll commissioned by the BBC has suggested".
BBC News | UK | UK Muslims 'against Afghan war' ...So it seems Muslim attitudes US/UK are not so dissimilar.

^%$$%&^&&%
This is not just about Afghanistan either... barely at all in fact. But FYI it's the USA who has Guantanamo, while in the UK the same people preach in Finsbury :^)
It's about one immigrants in one part of the world being absorbed better (Here) not only because of our countries outlook and their 'pre-selecting' themselves to come here, but second, about what their perception is of what they can get away with. Taking advantage of Euro/Scando-socialists and Post-colonial guilt is an easier target than trying to piss on less guilty don't try that shiite here Americans. It's quite amazing not just what the UK has tolerated, but the wholesale Jihadi/Islamist criminality in places like Sweden. If America had a Malmö (or even Oslo, Intifada Paris, or Londonistan), their would be Overwhelming public outcry and Strong government action. (Not to mention those exercising their second amendment rights)
Couldn't happen.
Though many EU Countries and leaders, including the aforementioned Cameron, have Started to put their foot down.... Right wing parties have risen and immigration cut in some places. The USA has had to do very little of this, though we do have an active FBI.

 

[mbig]

Muslims are apparently better 'absorbed' into the US and yet it is from the US that we get the continued whine that Europeans are not showing sufficient hatred for them and it is from the US that we see the worst hatred being shown towards these 'absorbed' Muslims or any who look as if they could be Muslims. (...)

Very well said.

That's exactly what it is: European posters here have constantly been under attack for not showing a "sufficient" degree of outrage, condemnation and hatred. They are under attack not for what they say, but what they don't say.

For some, everybody who does not join their rightful hate crusade against Muslims in general is accused of "siding with the enemy" by defending Muslims.

The lockstep hive mind of the American right believes "everybody who is not with us, is against us", thus everybody who doesn't join their political correctness (the brand that requires broad-brush generalizations and a sufficient amount of hatred against the "enemy") has to be silenced down until they capitulate and display the desired hatred.

Nuance and differentiation are considered "defending the enemy".

It's pretty ironic that the people with that attitude accuse others of "lacking liberal values".

By and large "the American Right" doesn't even post in this section, and admittedly, when they do, it's oft embarrassing. As I have commented.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...ected-president-france-16.html#post1060471803

So Completely Off-base reply.
You are being (and have been for years) much more cogently and painfully criticized by those defending Liberality (mainly 2 progressives) while you 'tolerate the Intolerant' in the name of that ideology.

I will get to your longer reply/treatise a few pages back when I have more time. A shocker it was too!

 

[Higgins86]

problem is mbig you havent grasped yet that Islamic terrorist's fight under the same banner no such thing as American Islamic terrorist and British Islamis terrorists. "Homegrown" or immigrants they pose the same threat and do not represent Islam or the communities they grew up in.

 

[Wiggen]

Very well said.

That's exactly what it is: European posters here have constantly been under attack for not showing a "sufficient" degree of outrage, condemnation and hatred. They are under attack not for what they say, but what they don't say.

For some, everybody who does not join their rightful hate crusade against Muslims in general is accused of "siding with the enemy" by defending Muslims.

The lockstep hive mind of the American right believes "everybody who is not with us, is against us", thus everybody who doesn't join their political correctness (the brand that requires broad-brush generalizations and a sufficient amount of hatred against the "enemy") has to be silenced down until they capitulate and display the desired hatred.

Nuance and differentiation are considered "defending the enemy".

It's pretty ironic that the people with that attitude accuse others of "lacking liberal values".

I think the interesting thing about the European left is how far they will go in defending even the most egregious examples of muslim conduct in their own countries. Not only do they not condemn things like Sharia Law and forced marriages and any number of other medieval practices, it seems as though they are required to A) defend them and B) immediately point out how terrible the non muslim world (generally the United States) is. There always has to be some sort of moral equivalency drawn.

As someone else pointed out, most right wingers on this forum don't even bother with this section, because frankly they don't give a damn about Europe. Those of us who post here do.

 

[Gardener]

As someone else pointed out, most right wingers on this forum don't even bother with this section, because frankly they don't give a damn about Europe. Those of us who post here do.

What I find amusing is how these incredibly dogmatic people remind me of so much of our actual American right. Just like the dittoheads here use the term "liberal" as a pejorative and apply it to any person who is not in absolute lock-step agreement with them, these Europeans call anybody "right wing" who expresses even the slightest divergence from their doctrinaire hard left apologists stance when it comes to Islamism.

They are two sides of the same coin and so much more alike than they are different when it comes to the need for conformity.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I think the interesting thing about the European left is how far they will go in defending even the most egregious examples of muslim conduct in their own countries. Not only do they not condemn things like Sharia Law and forced marriages and any number of other medieval practices, it seems as though they are required to A) defend them and B) immediately point out how terrible the non muslim world (generally the United States) is. There always has to be some sort of moral equivalency drawn.

As someone else pointed out, most right wingers on this forum don't even bother with this section, because frankly they don't give a damn about Europe. Those of us who post here do.

Before I reply - can you clarify whether you too are broad-brushing European posters with your claim there are no condemnations of forced marriage / arranged marriage / europe in general / or just posters here on this forum that are now part of the "Yuropean Left?"
It's not clear whether you're doing the same lazy baiting as your colleagues.

 

[Wiggen]

I have no obligation to explain things to you. My post stands by itself.

Isn't it about now where you point out all of the atrocities committed by westerners (read 'Americans') here and how 'Christian extremists' are just as big a threat to the world as Islamic terrorists?

It's kind of SOP for European leftists. Heaven forbid that they should actually condemn the midieval exploits of muslim extremists without attempting to draw some sort of moral equivalency.

Here's a thought for you. Whatever those of you in Europe are doing regarding the new Islamic enclaves within your countries to integrate them into the general population isn't working. A good start might be to crack down on the extremists and start deporting some of them - starting with the radical Imam's calling for death to westerners.

 

[Higgins86]

I see this thread is going how I would of expected it to go

American posters: Islam is taking over Europe

European posters: No they are still a huge minority compared to white christians.

American posters: Are you blind open your eyes your country is now under the blanket of sharia law and extremists are being born in every town or village.

European posters: I have lived near Muslim communities all my life and never had any issues with sharia law and yes extremists are a problem but they are still a very small minority and do not represent most European Muslims who were born here, educated here and work here.

American: Why are you defending Islam?


and so on and so on and so on. Only matter of time before Israel gets thrown in the mix.

 

[Wiggen]

So your chacterization of the discussion is essentially this:

American posters: Paranoid and probably racist.

European posters: Muslims are no problem in our countries, they are integrating wonderfully well and any stories of radicalism is just paranoid american propaganda.

Also entirely predicatable.

 

[Higgins86]

So your chacterization of the discussion is essentially this:

American posters: Paranoid and probably racist.

European posters: Muslims are no problem in our countries, they are integrating wonderfully well and any stories of radicalism is just paranoid american propaganda.

Also entirely predicatable.

not all American posters just the posters in this thread.

As I said before Muslims have been in countries like the UK since the 1960's and as a whole of integrated as well as could be expected given their relgion and culture. Many of my British Muslim friends drink, go to watch the football and dont really follow their relgion that closely ( they have been westernised). But the of course we have other islamics who say Islam first country 2nd and sometimes ( not very often) that leads to extremism. Problem is there is nothing we can do about those Muslims who love their relgion more than their country unless we infringe on their rights, instead we have to put faith in our security services that they will catch any bad eggs. This is the same in the US which is why I find this whole conversation so amusing, America can do about as much with religious fanatics as we can in the UK in fact you give them a platform to speak with your complete free speech.

Of course if you have any ideas on how we can combat the islam "problem" without stomping on their human rights im all ears Wiggen.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I have no obligation to explain things to you. My post stands by itself.

Isn't it about now where you point out all of the atrocities committed by westerners (read 'Americans') here and how 'Christian extremists' are just as big a threat to the world as Islamic terrorists?

It's kind of SOP for European leftists. Heaven forbid that they should actually condemn the midieval exploits of muslim extremists without attempting to draw some sort of moral equivalency.

Here's a thought for you. Whatever those of you in Europe are doing regarding the new Islamic enclaves within your countries to integrate them into the general population isn't working. A good start might be to crack down on the extremists and start deporting some of them - starting with the radical Imam's calling for death to westerners.

Your post is a strawman, a pretty obvious one but I'm trying to work out which brand of strawman it is

1) the one used if you were baiting European posters - because German Guy (who you were responding to) already explained that he disagreed forced marriage / medieval laws etc etc and explained that there were laws against many crimes that American posters influenced by the links Alexa helpfully exposed tend to claim. So your claim that the "Yuropean left" is defending such laws could be that strawman.
2) If you were posting against the "Yuropean left" strawman that your colleagues (Gardiner and mbig) tend to post about - that strawman is about a fictional leftist European hive mind whose thinking from the north of Sweden to the South eastern coast of Greece has decided to surrender the continent of Europe to become "Eurabia."


3) You could be talking about the George Galloway type of European left but I doubt it, I know he supports muslim arranged marriage and is possibly a muslim convert but you would have been more specific and there aren't any Galloway supporters on this forum. I also wonder whether you understand that even within the left wing of politics that George Galloway doesn't represent all the different strands of thinking on the left within Europe - just like Kenneth Clarke don't represent all the different right wing strands within Europe.

 

[Wiggen]

Well, according to you and the other Brit posters here, there is no islam 'problem'.

Ask the people blown to bits on 7/7 how they feel about human rights for muslim extremists.

Oh wait, you can't. They're dead. Of course, given the love and respect that some of your political leaders have for radical Islam, I'm guessing those questions probably won't be asked.

Radical imam like pope, says mayor - Telegraph

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- Muslims have been in countries like the UK since the 1960's --

There's a South Yemeni muslim community that's been based in South Shields (Wiggen originally hails from the Northumbria area) which has lived there since 1890.
The only problems there in over 120 years weren't Radical Islamism but racism and discrimination which led to riots in 1919 and 1930. I'm always fascinated on these types of threads that our resident ex North-Eastern / now US poster always conveniently forgets the peaceful muslim community that lives on his old doorstep.

 

[Higgins86]

Well, according to you and the other Brit posters here, there is no islam 'problem'.

Ask the people blown to bits on 7/7 how they feel about human rights for muslim extremists.

Oh wait, you can't. They're dead. Of course, given the love and respect that some of your political leaders have for radical Islam, I'm guessing those questions probably won't be asked.

Radical imam like pope, says mayor - Telegraph

so the answer to my question is no you have no ideas on how we can solve the extremist problem without going through innocent Muslims. Except as I said putting faith in our security agencies to grab the bad eggs.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Well, according to you and the other Brit posters here, there is no islam 'problem'.

Ask the people blown to bits on 7/7 how they feel about human rights for muslim extremists.

Oh wait, you can't. They're dead. Of course, given the love and respect that some of your political leaders have for radical Islam, I'm guessing those questions probably won't be asked.

Radical imam like pope, says mayor - Telegraph

Ah - George Galloway and Ken Livingstone are your strawmen. Makes sense that your reply to German Guy talked about "European posters" on this forum then doesn't it?

Re the bit from your post I've put in bold, you are trying to speak for people who have already given their testimony at the recent inquest on 7/7. I'll remind you of the British spirit you have forgotten or lost on your visit to American hate sites.

--snip--

or many survivors, reliance on other survivors has proved crucial.

Rachel North, who was on the King’s Cross tube, said: “One of the strongest memories is calling out to everybody to hold hands and a girl slipping her hand into my hand.

“In the dark, you couldn’t tell whether you were holding hands with men or women, what nationality, what race, what they were.

“There are lots of people who I have bonded with who came to my wedding and who are now celebrating the birth of my baby (Tom) with me.”

--snip--

Angela Iannou, also on the King’s Cross train, was another who has embraced the support from other survivors.

“You saw one of the better sides of human nature, how everyone was trying to help each other.

“The one positive from it all is the friendships. I have met some incredible people who I know will be friends for life. It is such a strong bond that we have with each other.”

--snip--

Now, kindly post a link that shows any of us who have posted here have said there is no problem within Islam.

 

[Wiggen]

Livingston and Galloway are straw men? I thought they were duly elected people's representatives who also happen to be terrorist supporters.

I'm bewildered by your post regarding the survivors of 7/7, unless your point is that only the British, with their 'spirit', are capable of such sentiments. Isn't that taking the ant-american bull**** just a little too far? I can probably link you to countless stories of heroism and 'spirit' during and immediately after 9/11, so I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say. Nothing in your post in any way responded to mine.

I don't have to link to individual posts. The entire tone of every single European poster on this subject is exactly the same. Islam is no different from Christianity. We have no problem with radical Islam in our country - it's just you paranoid, racist Americans that think having 25% of the Islamic population think suicide bombings and the killing of your soldiers is a good thing indicates a serious problem.

Post after post after post. My favorite was when one of you proudly proclaimed that 'well, that means 75% don't think it's a good thing', as though that was something to be proud of.

Poll: 1 in 4 younger U.S. Muslims support suicide bombings at least rarely

The problem exists in the U.S. as well, but at least we try to monitor and control these extremists. In Europe they are folk heroes to the Far Left.

 

[Wiggen]

so the answer to my question is no you have no ideas on how we can solve the extremist problem without going through innocent Muslims. Except as I said putting faith in our security agencies to grab the bad eggs.

Bit hard to do when you have politicians supporting them, isn't it?

Of course you can solve the problem. Step one would be to start taking it seriously. Not your security people. I'm sure they take it very seriously. No, I'm talking about people like you who react like a grizzly bear defending its cubs whenever the subject is raised here.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Livingston and Galloway are straw men? I thought they were duly elected people's representatives who also happen to be terrorist supporters.

Do they post on this website? You specifically tried making a point about European posters and you use Ken Livingstone as your example. Logical fallacy number 1.

I'm bewildered by your post regarding the survivors of 7/7, unless your point is that only the British, with their 'spirit', are capable of such sentiments.

No, I was directing that at you - the people in the Telegraph link spoke of all nationalities and races in the dark.

Isn't that taking the ant-american bull**** just a little too far?

Logical fallacy number 02 - or fallacy of association. Please direct me to any of my anti-American sentiment in this thread.

I don't have to link to individual posts. The entire tone of every single European poster on this subject is exactly the same. Islam is no different from Christianity. We have no problem with radical Islam in our country - it's just you paranoid, racist Americans that think having 25% of the Islamic population think suicide bombings and the killing of your soldiers is a good thing indicates a serious problem.

So, no link then which makes your claim another falsehood.

My favorite was when one of you proudly proclaimed that 'well, that means 75% don't think it's a good thing', as though that was something to be proud of.

You can at least link that post for me?

Poll: 1 in 4 younger U.S. Muslims support suicide bombings at least rarely

The problem exists in the U.S. as well, but at least we try to monitor and control these extremists. In Europe they are folk heroes to the Far Left.

Gunner for one has explained as far as I can remember that MI5 and MI6 have been watching these guys, I have done so and Higgins does just that in this thread - so, you have two falsehoods in that statement alone: and the second falsehood (remind you again) is that neither Ken Livingstone nor George Galloway have posted on this thread - so who are your "Yuropean far left?"

 

[Wiggen]

In your account of the people who survived the bombing, I missed any references to Muslim extremists.

You keep asking me for links to specific posts, and then prove my assertions. Great that MI 5 and MI 6 are watching these guys. That isn't the point. The point is that you have a very nasty problem in your country with a significant percentage of your muslim population that actively supports terrorism, doesn't consider themselves British, and feels no need to engage in any sort of assimilation into the country. Why should they? They can continue to lead the same lives they were leading in Pakistan or Yemen or wherever, largely free from any concern by the population as a whole and in fact strongly supported by British leftists, Galloway and Livingston being but two examples.

Aside from ignoring that basic fact, what are you personally doing about it?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

In your account of the people who survived the bombing, I missed any references to Muslim extremists.

The muslim extremists died during the bombings - the account was um from the survivors. Hope that makes sense?

You keep asking me for links to specific posts, and then prove my assertions.

Still no link huh?

Aside from ignoring that basic fact, what are you personally doing about it?

When I come across a muslim extremist bomber, I will let you know.

 

[Higgins86]

Bit hard to do when you have politicians supporting them, isn't it?

Of course you can solve the problem. Step one would be to start taking it seriously. Not your security people. I'm sure they take it very seriously. No, I'm talking about people like you who react like a grizzly bear defending its cubs whenever the subject is raised here.

sorry I should take the threat of Islam more seriously? Your right I mean its not like I ever saw the ugly side of Islam during my stay in Basra! Yawn....

Right guys time to take the threat of Islam more serious, next time you see a Muslim ask them a series of questions so we can work out if they are a goodie or a baddie. While we are at it why dont we make them wear a gold moon on theirs jackets so we can spot them easier, we should also move all Muslims into fenced off sectors so we can keep an eye on all of them oh and I suggest we make them pray outside so we can listen in. That should do it.

 

[Wiggen]

When I come across a muslim extremist bomber, I will let you know.

Aahhh, so that's it! If you don't come across one, they don't exist and aren't a problem? That explains so much.

 

[Wiggen]

Right guys time to take the threat of Islam more serious, next time you see a Muslim ask them a series of questions so we can work out if they are a goodie or a baddie. While we are at it why dont we make them wear a gold moon on theirs jackets so we can spot them easier, we should also move all Muslims into fenced off sectors so we can keep an eye on all of them oh and I suggest we make them pray outside so we can listen in. That should do it.

Seems a bit harsh. How about starting by closing down the radical Mosques and deporting those who have nothing but contempt for your country? Oh wait, being a member of the EU, I forgot. You don't have the authority to decide which foreigners get to live in your country and which don't.

 

[Wiggen]

The muslim extremists died during the bombings - the account was um from the survivors. Hope that makes sense?





.

No actually, it made no sense at all. Am I supposed to be upset by that fact?

 

[Higgins86]

Seems a bit harsh. How about starting by closing down the radical Mosques and deporting those who have nothing but contempt for your country? Oh wait, being a member of the EU, I forgot. You don't have the authority to decide which foreigners get to live in your country and which don't.

but again this problem isnt unique to the UK. The US and many other western countries have problems with radical's who are full of contempt for the countries they live it.

1. How are you going to define radical? Remember even if we hate the fact some clerics can preach hate about the west and our customs they still have a right to do that under free speech.
2. Again we can only deport someone if they break the law we cant just round up people that march against the war etc.
3. Give me examples of something the US does in regards to Islam that the UK could benefit from?