• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Murtha Aiding & Abetting the Enemy ?

DeeJayH

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
11,728
Reaction score
1,688
Location
Scooping Zeus' Poop
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Murtha Says Army Is 'Broken, Worn Out'
LATROBE, Pa. - Most U.S. troops will leave Iraq within a year because the Army is "broken, worn out" and "living hand to mouth," Rep. John Murtha told a civic group.
peaked and on a major downward slide
his political career, not the military
 
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
1,011
Reaction score
306
Location
Geelong, Australia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
I just don't understand how you can think that Al-Zerqawhi is really jumping for joy because a Democrat, demands a U.S pull out?
 

DeeJayH

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
11,728
Reaction score
1,688
Location
Scooping Zeus' Poop
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Australianlibertarian said:
I just don't understand how you can think that Al-Zerqawhi is really jumping for joy because a Democrat, demands a U.S pull out?
do you not beleive that a smaller enemy is emboldened by an internal report that our larger stronger military is Broken & worn out

they are relishing in the 'Mighty US' falling from within like we did in Vietnam, Somalia, yada yada yada

America has no heart and a weak stomach. That is what they think, and comments like Murtha's only reinforce them
Murtha is not a bum on a corner or a fanatic with an AM radio mic
He is a US Congressman. A representative of 1 of the 3 branches of our government
 

oldreliable67

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
4,641
Reaction score
1,102
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Ah, DJH, you beat me to it! Good job! :lol:

Remember what General Giap said to Ralph Peters after Vietnam?

Peters: "You never defeated us on the battlefied!"

Giap: "True. But that was irrelevant!"

The bin Ladens and al-Zarqawis of the radical Muslim world know this all too well. It was reinforced by Somalia and 8 years of Clinton ineffectual response to terrorist actions.
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
oldreliable67 said:
The bin Ladens and al-Zarqawis of the radical Muslim world know this all too well. It was reinforced by Somalia and 8 years of Clinton ineffectual response to terrorist actions.
It's ashame when the terrorists "wake the sleeping giant", only to have many in this country choose to take sleeping pills, roll over, and forget about it...:(
 

DeeJayH

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
11,728
Reaction score
1,688
Location
Scooping Zeus' Poop
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
cnredd said:
It's ashame when the terrorists "wake the sleeping giant", only to have many in this country choose to take sleeping pills, roll over, and forget about it...:(
amen

but you will get ripped by the 'cut and runners' for that
 

Conflict

Banned
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
745
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
DeeJayH said:
do you not beleive that a smaller enemy is emboldened by an internal report that our larger stronger military is Broken & worn out
In the nation of Iraq we were the ones that came in with guns blazing. Hence the concept of insurgency has manifested as it always does. I think that many people there want us out.... I don't see how abiding by their wishes makes us any less of a "Superpower". There is no protocol which suggests that OUR troops should die for the benefit of Iraq's National Security.

DeeJayH said:
they are relishing in the 'Mighty US' falling from within like we did in Vietnam, Somalia, yada yada yada.
America has no heart and a weak stomach. That is what they think
Are you their spokesperson? Did you take a consensus. How the heck would you have any clue what they think?

DeeJay said:
and comments like Murtha's only reinforce them
Murtha is not a bum on a corner or a fanatic with an AM radio mic
He is a US Congressman. A representative of 1 of the 3 branches of our government
I highly doubt the inurgents in Iraq are sitting around watching a flat screen plasma t.v. embracing each other by the virtue of Murtha's position. I suppose the American people are supposed to expect an esteemed legislator and decorated war veteran like Murtha to bite his lip and shut up; Just so he doesn't offend any aspiring political pundits on an internet debate forum.

The implications of this thread and the motive behind it being posted are truly shameless in my opinion.
 

Mikkel

Pragmatist
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Messages
489
Reaction score
0
Location
Cleveland, OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
This is not an issue of cutting and running. It's an issue of national interest. We need to have a real plan with a timetable if we want to keep this war from becoming another vietnam. It's a 'win or get out' situation. Murtha is beginning to recognize, like many others, that the war on terror can never be won with conventional means. Even the president recognizes this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5865710/

Murtha and the President agree on this issue. They simply draw different conclusions. I don't think it's unreasonable for Murtha to call for troop removal when the troops are fighting a war that they cannot, conventionally, win. Murtha is a decorated veteran, and the president, well... isn't. If I'm going to guess who's got a better idea of how to handle the situation, I'd pick Murtha.

"peaked and on a major downward slide
his political career, not the military"


Fortunately, that's not up to you. It's up to the people of Pennsylvania's 12th congressional district, and it doesn't look like they're planning on losing him any time soon:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051120/news_1n20murtha.html
 

Conflict

Banned
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
745
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
DeeJayH said:
Murtha Says Army Is 'Broken, Worn Out'


peaked and on a major downward slide
his political career, not the military
The Army is in an undesirable position because they have not been given the logistical and strategical support that they need in guerilla warfare or even conventional warfare. Yet it's so funny how people like you are the ones who claim to "support the troops" by unconditionally agreeing with Bush doctrine.

When I see our military getting the support they need from our administration and those who "claim" to support them... then perhaps such apologetic sycophants of the PNAC would have a legitimate concern.

Regardless, Murtha's political career has no relevance to the situation at hand. However his position by all virtue of common sense is one that sincerely supports our military and not his political career. I suppose you don't think there is anything noble about standing up for your belief no matter what the "political" cost.

 
Last edited:

scottyz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
1,575
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Moderate
Murtha has been a very hawkish politician and has supported this war since the beginning, so what do you think made him change his mind?
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
scottyz said:
Murtha has been a very hawkish politician and has supported this war since the beginning, so what do you think made him change his mind?
Nancy Pelosi...strong armed...
 

Iriemon

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
19,405
Reaction score
2,187
Location
Miami
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
If I was bin Laden, the *last* thing I would want to see is US forces pull out. If I am bin Laden, I'd be supporting the "stay the course" gang full bore.
 

oldreliable67

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
4,641
Reaction score
1,102
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I highly doubt the inurgents in Iraq are sitting around watching a flat screen plasma t.v. embracing each other by the virtue of Murtha's position.
Actually, that is exactly what they are doing. Figuratively if not literally. Read some of the blogs from folks in Iraq if you don't think so.
 

scottyz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
1,575
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Moderate
cnredd said:
Nancy Pelosi...strong armed...
He has a history of not being influenced by people like Nancy Pelosi and going against his entire party on such issues. :confused:
 

Mikkel

Pragmatist
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Messages
489
Reaction score
0
Location
Cleveland, OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
scottyz said:
Murtha has been a very hawkish politician and has supported this war since the beginning, so what do you think made him change his mind?
Probably for the same reason Jack Flynt (Georgia's 4-CD from 1954-1978, conservativ dixiecrat) ended up opposing the Vietnam War in the end. 'Lets win this war and then get out. And if we can't win it, let's get out.'

He probably lost his belief that we can win this war conventionally. Even Hawks don't like staying in wars that they can't win.
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I've heard it put this way:

1) What if a large portion of the Islamic clerics and mulahs voiced their oppostition to the actions of of Al-Zarqawi and the leaders of the insurgency and then said the actions of Al-Qaeda were against what Islam stands for and that they were evil?

2) Then what if they issued a Fatwa (Islamic Law) demanding their withdrawl from Iraq by a certain period of time?

3) And then what if Al-Jazeera broadcasted these Fatwas on a 24/7 basis throughout the Mid-East

4) What kind of effect do you think would have on the Moral of the insurgents???

Now flip that:

1) What if a large portion of the U.S. government voiced there opposition to the actions of President Bush and then compared the actions of the troops to that of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia?

2) And then what if they attempted to pass a Bill calling for the withdrawal from Iraq by a set period of time?

3) And then what if CNN broadcasted this call for a time table (or as Sen. Kerry would say a schedule for success :roll:)on a 24/7 basis throughout the world?

4) What kind of effect do you think this would have on the moral of the Troops?
 
Last edited:

Mikkel

Pragmatist
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Messages
489
Reaction score
0
Location
Cleveland, OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
I'm so sick of people speculating about how our troops our feeling. They're our troops. Shouldn't we be polling them?

You can't just boil it down to one or the other. I'll bet the US troop morale was higher at the end of Vietnam when they knew they were coming home than it was in the middle. I'm just guessing, but my point is that it isn't as simple as many people say it is.
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Mikkel said:
I'm so sick of people speculating about how our troops our feeling. They're our troops. Shouldn't we be polling them?

You can't just boil it down to one or the other. I'll bet the US troop morale was higher at the end of Vietnam when they knew they were coming home than it was in the middle. I'm just guessing, but my point is that it isn't as simple as many people say it is.
how can you argue with that logic 2/3's of the troops are sure of victory in Iraq and even more voted for President Bush which I consider the only poll that means jack ****.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-12-26-poll_x.htm
 
Last edited:

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Mikkel said:
I'm so sick of people speculating about how our troops our feeling. They're our troops. Shouldn't we be polling them?

You can't just boil it down to one or the other. I'll bet the US troop morale was higher at the end of Vietnam when they knew they were coming home than it was in the middle. I'm just guessing, but my point is that it isn't as simple as many people say it is.
Would this be a good indication of how they feel?


It is a glance at one of the most unexpected developments of the war in Iraq. Even as the conflict drags on, undermining recruiting efforts and testing the patience of the nation, American soldiers are so far continuing to reenlist at levels that surprise the Pentagon and pundits alike. To the head of the National Guard, this is the legacy of America's "next greatest generation": a band of soldiers more sophisticated than any before in history, which has been asked to adapt to a new style of warfare and often serve multiple tours - all as a volunteer force....

"The design of the all- volunteer force [after Vietnam] was to make this kind of [open-ended] commitment difficult," says Thomas Donnelly, a military expert at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington. "But there have been some extraordinary levels of motivation going on, in terms of serving the country in a time of crisis."...

What is perhaps most significant is that they continue to volunteer. In a normal year, the Army National Guard expects 18 percent of its soldiers to leave because of retirement, injury, and death, or because they do not reenlist. This year, the attrition rate is only 18.9 percent. Meanwhile, reenlistment rates for the Army and Marines are either exceeding goals or are within a few percentage points of them. Some data even show that reenlistment rates are higher for units deployed overseas than for those that have remained at home....


http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0503/p01s01-usmi.html
 

scottyz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
1,575
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Moderate
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Now flip that:

1) What if a large portion of the U.S. government voiced there opposition to the actions of President Bush and then compared the actions of the troops to that of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia?
Like what happened when Clinton went into Bosnia?
"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years."
--Joe Scarborough (R-FL)

"American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy."
--Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

"[The] President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy."
--Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)


"If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy."
--Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W Bush

"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning . . I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area."
--Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today"
--Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
--Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)


2) And then what if they attempted to pass a Bill calling for the withdrawal from Iraq by a set period of time?
Did Republicans not introduce that? Weren't they calling for the same thing in Bosnia?
3) And then what if CNN broadcasted this call for a time table (or as Sen. Kerry would say a schedule for success :roll:)on a 24/7 basis throughout the world?
Sorta like Fox news did?

4) What kind of effect do you think this would have on the moral of the Troops?
What kind of effect do you think this had on the moral of troops in Bosnia? Did we lose or win because of it?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
scottyz said:
Like what happened when Clinton went into Bosnia?
"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years."
--Joe Scarborough (R-FL)

"American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy."
--Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

"[The] President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy."
--Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)


"If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy."
--Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W Bush

"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning . . I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area."
--Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today"
--Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
--Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)



Did Republicans not introduce that? Weren't they calling for the same thing in Bosnia?

Sorta like Fox news did?


What kind of effect do you think this had on the moral of troops in Bosnia? Did we lose or win because of it?
Your rebuttle is crap without dates behind it, I want to know if these things were said before or after we were engaged in Kosovo? That's rhetorical by the way because I already looked it up about a month ago and these statements were made before the war started and not after we were already engaged!!!
 

Conflict

Banned
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
745
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
oldreliable67 said:
Actually, that is exactly what they are doing. Figuratively if not literally. Read some of the blogs from folks in Iraq if you don't think so.
Wow. Now there's a devout Ann Coulter fan.

There is no need to run up the score here so to say.... have you no idea of the state of condition of Iraq?

Of course you do.. you're just being a complete toad. If it were up to me people like yourself would be prosecuted for obstruction and concpiracy to commit treason.... with your oh so innocent obfuscation proclamations that people in Iraq have any type of virtual communicado let alone a demand for plasma televisions. What blogs from folks in Iraq? GIve me a link?
 
Last edited:

scottyz

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
1,575
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Moderate
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Your rebuttle is crap without dates behind it, I want to know if these things were said before or after we were engaged in Kosovo? That's rhetorical by the way because I already looked it up about a month ago and these statements were made before the war started and not after we were already engaged!!!
So if you claim to know the dates why did you ask for them? So if these statements were made before the war they still couldn't have hurt moral of the troops entering the war?

"Once the bombing commenced, I think then [Slobodan] Milosevic unleashed his forces, and then that's when the slaughtering and the massive ethnic cleansing really started," Nickles said at a news conference after appearing on Meet the Press. "The administration's campaign has been a disaster. ... [It] escalated a guerrilla warfare into a real war, and the real losers are the Kosovars and innocent civilians." On Fox News Sunday, DeLay blamed the ethnic cleansing on U.S. intervention. "Clinton's bombing campaign has caused all of these problems to explode," DeLay charged in a House floor speech replayed on Late Edition.
"I don't know that Milosevic will ever raise a white flag," warned Nickles. DeLay agreed: "He's stronger in Kosovo now than he was before the bombing. ... The Serbian people are rallying around him like never before. He's much stronger with his allies, Russians and others." Clinton "has no plan for the end" and "recognizes that Milosevic will still be in power," added DeLay. "The bombing was a mistake. ... And this president ought to show some leadership and admit it, and come to some sort of negotiated end."
Cohen said it was "highly unlikely" that Clinton would meet with Milosevic in response to Yugoslavia's release of the three captured American soldiers over the weekend, since the Serbs were continuing their atrocities and weren't offering to meet NATO's conditions. DeLay called this refusal "really disappointing" and a failure of "leadership. ... The president ought to open up negotiations and come to some sort of diplomatic end." Lott implored Clinton to "give peace a chance" and, comparing the war with the recent Colorado high-school shootings, urged him to resolve the Kosovo conflict with "words, not weapons."
Unless Clinton finds "a way to get the bombing stopped" and to "get Milosevic to pull back his troops" voluntarily, NATO faces "a quagmire ... a long, protracted, bloody war," warned Lott. Clinton "only has two choices," said DeLay--to "occupy Yugoslavia and take Milosevic out" or "to negotiate some sort of diplomatic end, diplomatic agreement in order to end this failed policy."
http://www.slate.com/default.aspx?id=27730
 
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
scottyz said:
So if you claim to know the dates why did you ask for them? So if these statements were made before the war they still couldn't have hurt moral of the troops entering the war?









http://www.slate.com/default.aspx?id=27730
give me one Republican condemnation of the war after 1999 and the engagement of the U.S. military!!!
 

Mikkel

Pragmatist
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Messages
489
Reaction score
0
Location
Cleveland, OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
how can you argue with that logic 2/3's of the troops are sure of victory in Iraq and even more voted for President Bush which I consider the only poll that means jack ****.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-12-26-poll_x.htm
If you're going to be picky about figures, your link says that, "Two-thirds of combat vets say the war is worth fighting," not that they are sure of victory. Additionally, that article was from Dec 24, 2005. A lot has happened since then. Find me a real figure that troop morale has gone down since members of congress have started talking about a timetable to pull them out and I'll concede you're right.

I'm not arguing that the troops are against the war. I'm saying that the republican spin machine is trying to manipulate the figures you showed me to say that troop morale will go down if we create an exit strategy. That's just pure speculation.
 
Top Bottom