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Murtha Aiding & Abetting the Enemy ?

Mikkel said:
If you're going to be picky about figures, your link says that, "Two-thirds of combat vets say the war is worth fighting," not that they are sure of victory. Additionally, that article was from Dec 24, 2005. A lot has happened since then. Find me a real figure that troop morale has gone down since members of congress have started talking about a timetable to pull them out and I'll concede you're right.

I'm not arguing that the troops are against the war. I'm saying that the republican spin machine is trying to manipulate the figures you showed me to say that troop morale will go down if we create an exit strategy. That's just pure speculation.
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LOL so USA Today is Republican propoganda now? So I take it that you believe if a newspaper or News netowork actually has the audacity to report good news about the war in Iraq that it's Republican spin.
 
You can't just boil it down to one or the other. I'll bet the US troop morale was higher at the end of Vietnam when they knew they were coming home than it was in the middle. I'm just guessing, but my point is that it isn't as simple as many people say it is.
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It depends. THose who volunteered probably had bad morale but those who were drafted probably were happy, except those who lost arms and legs and ****.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
LOL so USA Today is Republican propoganda now? So I take it that you believe if a newspaper or News netowork actually has the audacity to report good news about the war in Iraq that it's Republican spin.
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I'm beginning to draw the conlcusion that no one on this entire message board actually reads the posts before writing their responses.

USA today is a reputable, if less than intellectual, newspaper. The article in question mentioned nothing about troop morale going down as a result of Democrats in Congress calling for a timetable or exit strategy. I'm guessing that's probably because it was written long before Democrats were creating such a huff about it.

I still can't find any poll data of the troops suggesting their morale has dropped because of Democrats calling for a timetable. Republicans keep claiming this is the case, but I cannot find any direct empirical evidence supporting their claims. If that isn't spin, I don't know what is.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
give me one Republican condemnation of the war after 1999 and the engagement of the U.S. military!!!
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I gave you plenty of them, you just didn't like them which isn't my problem.

The war started on 3/24/99

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is."

-George W. Bush, 4/9/99

"I think it's also important for the president to lay out a timetable as to how long they will be involved and when they will be withdrawn."

-George W. Bush, 6/5/99

“What has happened is we have taken a political crisis
and a humanitarian crisis and escalated it into a full military crisis. The handling of the situation in the
Balkans reflects the inattention of the Clinton Administration to foreign policy. … You have the same
situation [as Vietnam]. Ambiguity, no stated, clear cut mission and then you are going to have to be there
quite some time.”

Dan Quayle , 3/28/99

“And what are we doing bombing and attacking this
tiny country that has never attacked the United States to rip away from them a province that does not
belong to us? I believe it is an unjust war. I think we have failed in our strategic objectives, and it is now
becoming basically no longer a war for Kosovo but a war to save NATO’s credibility and NATO’s face.
And that does not justify sending in an army of 100,000 American ground troops into the Balkans.”

Pat Buchanan, 4/25/99

“Mr. Speaker, this is a very difficult speech for me to
give, because I normally, and I still do, support our military and the fine work that they are doing. But I
cannot support a failed foreign policy. … But before we get deeper embroiled into this Balkan quagmire,

I think that an assessment has to be made of the Kosovo policy so far. President Clinton has never
explained to the American people why he was involving the U.S. military in a civil war in a sovereign
nation, other than to say it is for humanitarian reasons, a new military/foreign policy precedent. … Was it
worth it to stay in Vietnam to save face? What good has been accomplished so far? Absolutely nothing.”

Tom Delay, 4/28/99

“We should not be in Kosovo, as we should not
have been in Bosnia. Our concern is we should be able to defend America in the event something
happens where our strategic interests are at stake, such as in Iraq or in North Korea. And this is just
depleting and diluting our resources.”

Senator James Inhofe, 4/8/99

“A lackluster air campaign has given the Serb dictator Milosevic time to achieve most of his strategic goals in Kosovo.”
John Ashcroft , 4/8/99

“We are presently at war and it is an unconstitutional war.” (R-CA)

Tom Campbell, 4/14/99


“I think he’s gotten us into a mess. I don’t think you can bomb a country into signing a peace
agreement.”

Don Nickles , 4/13/99

“I don’t
believe that a ground war in Kosovo using American troops is going to be very successful.”

Judd Gregg, 4/18/99
 
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Mikkel said:
I'm beginning to draw the conlcusion that no one on this entire message board actually reads the posts before writing their responses.

USA today is a reputable, if less than intellectual, newspaper. The article in question mentioned nothing about troop morale going down as a result of Democrats in Congress calling for a timetable or exit strategy. I'm guessing that's probably because it was written long before Democrats were creating such a huff about it.

I still can't find any poll data of the troops suggesting their morale has dropped because of Democrats calling for a timetable. Republicans keep claiming this is the case, but I cannot find any direct empirical evidence supporting their claims. If that isn't spin, I don't know what is.
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that was a statement made in response to you saying that we shouldn't guess as to how the troops feel and I showed you how they feel according to them, and did you even read my first statement? Of course libs are hurting the war effort that's been their M.O. since vietnam your presidential candidate John Kerry is a former leader of the war protester movement for Christ's sakes everyone knows what the Dems are about and you people aren't going to get away with it this time.
 
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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
that was a statement made in response to you saying that we shouldn't guess as to how the troops feel and I showed you how they feel according to them, and did you even read my first statement? Of course libs are hurting the war effort that's been their M.O. since vietnam your presidential candidate John Kerry is a former leader of the war protester movement for Christ's sakes everyone knows what the Dems are about and you people aren't going to get away with it this time.
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Annuit Coeptis
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
that was a statement made in response to you saying that we shouldn't guess as to how the troops feel and I showed you how they feel according to them, and did you even read my first statement? Of course libs are hurting the war effort that's been their M.O. since vietnam your presidential candidate John Kerry is a former leader of the war protester movement for Christ's sakes everyone knows what the Dems are about and you people aren't going to get away with it this time.
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There's no doubt that its the liberal MO to get out of Iraq. I don't know what there is to 'get away with'.

You seem to lack the intellectual capacity to grasp the difference between what troop morale is at a single point in time, and how it changes over the course of certain events. I can find no evidence, whatsoever, that backs the claim that troop morale has decreased due to Congressional debate.

If course I read your first statement:

"1) What if a large portion of the U.S. government voiced there opposition to the actions of President Bush and then compared the actions of the troops to that of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia?

2) And then what if they attempted to pass a Bill calling for the withdrawal from Iraq by a set period of time?

3) And then what if CNN broadcasted this call for a time table (or as Sen. Kerry would say a schedule for success )on a 24/7 basis throughout the world?

4) What kind of effect do you think this would have on the moral of the Troops?"

That is ALL rhetoric and speculation. If I were you I wouldn't be particularly proud of this post.

Bottom line: if you have hard evidence showing that troop morale has decreased as a result of Congressional debate, show it. If not, stfu.
 
No he isnt,he is being honest as he sees it. President Bush has never liked open discussion around him.Thats why he does'nt have people who wil dissagree with him around him. Secretary of State Powell who as a general believed in ' overwhelming force when invading a country " changed it to suit President Bush.The chief of Staff of the army who wouldn't change hs opinion, was retired.Presiden Bush's fathert who was in WWII would remember a generl named patton .Who said you don't fight for the same ground more than once. Something we seem to have forgotton in Iraq.
 
JOHNYJ said:
Bush's fathert who was in WWII would remember a generl named patton .Who said you don't fight for the same ground more than once. Something we seem to have forgotton in Iraq.
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different war, different type of enemy
Different rules
 
Here is how one soldier views Murtha's comments:

An Army Broken?
With all the eagerness of a dog returning to something it has vomited up, the conventional media has latched onto Rep. Murtha's rambling discourse about the Army being "broken" and "has done all they can."

Unmitigated crap. And I don't say this out of defensiveness or service pride - I'll tell you about how far we have had to come in a bit. First, though, a little material for you to mull over.

The US Army is quite open about how it works, what it sees for its future, what it has been told to do in the future by the civilian authorities we serve. You can see its budget, strength, recruiting, retention, doctrine and philosophy. And not just official sources. US Army Soldiers tell the world about things that go right and wrong. Also, what we do on our own. We are our own strongest critics and staunchest defenders.
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Go here to read the entire blog. Interesting comments from a soldier who has been there, done that.

Of particular relevance are the comments about how open the US Army is about how it works. Its all there in public docs, and individual troops can sound off in many ways, thru blogs, e-mails to hometown or national news outlets, participation in forums such as this one, etc, etc, etc. If the Army was/is broken, where is the chorus of complaints from the soldiers themselves? Are there problems? Sure. Have mistakes been made? You betcha. This is still an organization run by people and people make mistakes. But, all in all, I'm quite proud of the organization of which I was once a part.
 
Mikkel said:
There's no doubt that its the liberal MO to get out of Iraq. I don't know what there is to 'get away with'.

You seem to lack the intellectual capacity to grasp the difference between what troop morale is at a single point in time, and how it changes over the course of certain events. I can find no evidence, whatsoever, that backs the claim that troop morale has decreased due to Congressional debate.

If course I read your first statement:

"1) What if a large portion of the U.S. government voiced there opposition to the actions of President Bush and then compared the actions of the troops to that of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia?

2) And then what if they attempted to pass a Bill calling for the withdrawal from Iraq by a set period of time?

3) And then what if CNN broadcasted this call for a time table (or as Sen. Kerry would say a schedule for success )on a 24/7 basis throughout the world?

4) What kind of effect do you think this would have on the moral of the Troops?"

That is ALL rhetoric and speculation. If I were you I wouldn't be particularly proud of this post.

Bottom line: if you have hard evidence showing that troop morale has decreased as a result of Congressional debate, show it. If not, stfu.
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No of course you're right war protesters help the morale of the troops :roll:


Jesus jumping christ are you ****ing retarted or have you just been so inundated with liberal propoganda since grade school that you actually believe that clap trap that you're spouting???

I love the way the left redefines the definition of patriotism to include war protesting and comparing the actions of their country to that of the Soviets and Nazi Germany.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
No of course you're right war protesters help the morale of the troops :roll:


Jesus jumping christ are you ****ing retarted or have you just been so inundated with liberal propoganda since grade school that you actually believe that clap trap that you're spouting???

I love the way the left redefines the definition of patriotism to include war protesting and comparing the actions of their country to that of the Soviets and Nazi Germany.
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I'm not saying that war protesters help the war effort. In fact, this whole conversation has nothing to do with war protesters at all. This is about politicians in Congress calling for troop withdrawl. I'm not saying that calling for withdrawl helps the morale of the troops either. What I am saying is that you have no significant evidence from the troops indicating that calling for withdrawl hurts morale.

Why do you post on this board if you aren't open to ideas? Calling me retarded or liberal doesn't support your argument, and while you and others may disagree with what I believe, I try not to let my bias supercede pragmatic, intelligent debate. Apparently you are willing to make that sacrifice. You have failed to grasp a simple concept I have presented three times in a row now, so I'm going to assume that the retardation is primarily emanating from your end of the line. Either that, or you are unable to find a suitable response and have to resort to mindless rantings about your distaste for liberals.

Now, if you can show me hard evidence that troop morale has gone down because of Democrats in Congress calling for a timetable to withdraw from Iraq, I might think twice about you, but if you come back at me with another dogmatic, party-line response that doesn't exhibit some sort of cognative process, then I will assume that you lack the ability to process information rationally and coherently and suggest that you seek clinical help.

Have a nice day.
 
Mickey Kaus has an interesting juxtaposition of Murtha's comments...

Murtha vs. Murtha: Rep. Murtha on the prospects of an Iraqi civil war:

[T]here's a civil war going. We're caught in between a civil war right now. Our troops are the targets of the civil war. They're the only people that could have unified the various factions in Iraq. And they're unified against us. --ABC's This Week, 12/4/05

[W]hy should I believe what the CIA says about what's happening in Iraq, that there's going to be a civil war? First of all, al Qaeda was wrong. It was wrong on the nuclear stuff. It was wrong on everything they have said over there. So why should I believe that there's going to be a civil war? -- same show, a few moments later.

Rep. Murtha on whether the Iraqis will throw us out:

[T]he military won a military victory. They got rid of Saddam Hussein. ...[snip] ... Now, it's got to be a political win. They have to win this politically. The Iraqis themselves. We'll stay there forever. The Iraqis are never going to say turn it over. We can't allow them to say when it's gonna turn it over.--This Week, 12/4/05


You're gonna see the Iraqis clamoring. Listen, anybody we support in Iraq loses the election. And so they're gonna be clamoring for us to get out. -- same show, a few moments later.[/I]

Source.

Murtha seems a bit confused.
 
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