Mueller did EXACTLY what he should have done!

[Mach]

They can't even do that. They have to do to court and get a court order first to overthrow attorney client privilege.

I cited the actual Justice Department regulation that refutes what you claim.
Can you site the regulation that backs your claim?

 

[Lovebug]

The "problem" Paul refers to without expressing it is the exposure of criminal conduct that political bigwigs are accustomed to getting away with by burying it. Special prosecutors are a threat to shine light where light doesn't usually shine. The raid on Cohen's office and personal residences was sanctioned by a federal judge upon a showing of probable cause of criminal conduct. That is the standard for issuance of the warrant that was granted the FBI in this instance. I don't have a lot of sympathy for a politician - in this case Rand Paul - who is upset over a court authorized warrant to investigate a crime because the crime may implicate someone used to having his money and importance shield him.

This is about more than even attorney-client confidence and privilege, which should concern us all. Paul comments are just the tip of an iceberg. I won't answer to any conspiracy theories.

 

[Lovebug]

I think it's unlikely that the Left will move on any time soon. But, that's where all of Mueller's digging is supposed to lead, to an unquestionable conclusion.




What's the old saying -- let whomever is innocent cast the first stone? Granted, we've had Presidents who were better able to control what they said -- but -- I don't know of one President who wasn't a liar.

It's what they do.

Mueller's investigation into the Russian collusion was worthwhile and should continue, as it is in all our best interest. I am a bit stumped by what indeed looks like a witch hunt, but any investigation within legal means should continue. But are we sure that it is?

 

[HowardBThiname]

Mueller's investigation into the Russian collusion was worthwhile and should continue, as it is in all our best interest. I am a bit stumped by what indeed looks like a witch hunt, but any investigation within legal means should continue. But are we sure that it is?

What is continuing, in my opinion, is the perception of a very, very thorough investigation. The perception part is important because it will (hopefully) deter accusations that it was not rigorous enough later on.

However, I don't think the Russia/collusion investigation has been fruitful at all. Some charges have come out of it -- but nothing that actually relates to collusion, and when the 13 indictments were handed down, it was made clear that any of the Americans who were linked in some fashion, were "unwitting" participants.

There is a battle going on, but it's not really a battle to restore the integrity of our election/campaign system. It's a battle for Ukraine. It started under Obama during the winter Olympics in Russia and we lost -- the US lost -- and that really pissed off some of the participants (like McCain), as well as others, and some of Trump's associates were involved in other side of the Ukrainian fiasco and now it's time to punish them -- or at least a few are trying to do that. It's more vengeance and sour grapes than anything, and it has nothing to do with Trump, and very little to do with Putin.

But, it makes for a good story.

Expect the Russia/Trump investigation to wind down this summer, with Trump being cleared of all collusion. Not that collusion was ever a crime, but, the way it's been hyped, many think it is.

 

[Mycroft]

That was not attorney client privileged though. They have to use a taint team on this, regardless.
Remember, this is law enforcement, if they are doing their lawful job and see evidence of a crime, they are obligated to pursue it (and should!).
Trump is widely reported not to use email because he's a sketchy mofo though. (although Cohen may take email notes of their conversations).


Doesn't seem likely. It's a separate team altogether. The shock and awe may be used in this case to shake Trump, I don't know. And I say shake Trump because we know he knew about it, but he's continually lying about it, and his buddy is taking the fall. Justice doesn't like to see a fall guy, they want the truth of the crime to come out fully.

Trump's biggest legal jeopardy for Trump on this seems to be about this case and not about Mueller/Russia at all. Basically it is because Trump has been lying, and saying that Stormy is lying about the affair. That's 100% Trump's fault for both the affair and claiming she's a liar. This allowed for Avanatti to turn it into a defamation case. Then with Avanatti's deft maneuvering, he's got Trump and Cohen on the ropes in a number of nuanced ways that you can look up. Well, you can see Cohen is on the ropes without having to look anything up at this point.

Apparently, others...more knowledgeable about these things than I...think this whole Cohen thing is a ploy orchestrated by Mueller. In fact, one person...none other than Bharara...is convinced this is so.

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/preet-bharara-robert-mueller-behind-michael-cohen-fbi-raid/

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Good try, but attorney-client privilege is attorney client privilege, and I look forward to seeing you sorry pieces of trash walk this back.

You people are destroying every good thing about our legal system just to get to a politician you don't like. That's all I have to say about this.

The thing is, as soon as your lawyer tries to cover up your crime, he's no longer your lawyer and lawyer-client confidentiality goes away.
In fact, he's a co-conspirator.
And we're not talking about Trump boinking Stormy Daniels. Yes, that's still adultery and still on the New York books as a crime but no one and I mean NO ONE cares about that. The payoff was certainly the crime they ARE interested in because it was an attempt to conceal the original crime. Lying about either one was yet another crime, because Mueller was investigating it.

Trump lies all the time, but his fans dismiss it as one of his charming personality traits. But lying publicly about something the FBI is investigating is a crime, even if you are not under oath.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Apparently, others...more knowledgeable about these things than I...think this whole Cohen thing is a ploy orchestrated by Mueller. In fact, one person...none other than Bharara...is convinced this is so.

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/preet-bharara-robert-mueller-behind-michael-cohen-fbi-raid/

Oh please, now you're including all the Trump hand picked officials AND the judges in some Preet Bahrara deep state conspiracy???



Just stop, please stop, my sides are hurting from laughing! :lamo

 

[jmotivator]

exactly they can't just rummage through all of that and go gotcha.
they have to have existing evidence that would actually prove to a court that the privilege can be broken.

they can't just sweep up everything and go on a dumpster dive.

I'd like to the see the warrant and how that would be authorized.

 

[Mach]

Apparently, others...more knowledgeable about these things than I...think this whole Cohen thing is a ploy orchestrated by Mueller. In fact, one person...none other than Bharara...is convinced this is so. https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/preet-bharara-robert-mueller-behind-michael-cohen-fbi-raid/

Good find.

sorting through Cohen’s files and then turning over the non-privileged information to Mueller’s army of attorneys.

Still appears to observe client/attorney privileged, so it's on the up and up where that is concerned.
It was actually referred to Rosenstein, and Rosenstein referred it, as a matter of technicality, so any implication that Mueller is acting rogue or outside his scope, would be inappropriate too.

The issue is what they are doing is legal and not uncommon for this type of high stakes criminal investigation. The Constitution is not being violated, they are not breaking the law, Mueller has not gone rogue, it's not Gestapo (slingshot bob), etc. It's unnerving to be sure, and entertaining to some, but it's the secrecy that ultimately frustrates most of us. We're using to getting to know everything immediately.

Having read up on the tactics they have to use to get at organized white collar criminals who have a history of hiding their misdeeds with money and expertise, I would not doubt it's related for a second either I suppose.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Trump is widely reported not to use email because he's a sketchy mofo though.

Just a side note: I was under the impression that he does HAVE email but that his staffers read and respond because he lacks the patience or skill to use a computer, and that they are obligated to PRINT OUT all his emails every day.

 

[D_NATURED]

Of course they do. All they want is to watch this country burn. They want to take away our God given rights and transform our free lives into rainbow-liberul-forced-sjw-concentration camps.
The modern Democrat will be the downfall of this great nation, heck, maybe the world.

Judgement day is upon us.









(lol)

Dude, first of alll, congratulations on a post that clearly shows how paranoid and delusional the right is. Secondly, if either party threatens America or the world, it's the Republicans, whose candidates have been increasingly fascist, Christian demagogues. It is as if they are blissfully unaware of how their politics have, time and again, threatened peace, enslaved the poor and subverted Democracy everywhere.

If this country could be destroyed through liberalism, it would have happened when we liberals ended slavery, gave women the vote or established equal rights, all against the threats and whining of conservative, christians.

In fact, if you guys are unhappy, that usually means that something good is happening.

 

[Mycroft]

Oh please, now you're including all the Trump hand picked officials AND the judges in some Preet Bahrara deep state conspiracy???

View attachment 67231478

Just stop, please stop, my sides are hurting from laughing! :lamo

You should probably go back to my first post in this thread to figure out my position...instead of jumping to conclusions.

 

[jmotivator]

Another legal expert who never spent single day in a law school. What other professions are you an expert on?

Do you comment on topics other than law?

The funny thing about all legal debate topics is that there will always be educated lawyers on both sides of the argument. I value your opinion as much as I value those lawyers who disagree with your interpretation of the law.

Should I trust you, Mr. anonymous Internet Person, more than Alan Dershowitz?

 

[Mach]

Oh please, now you're including all the Trump hand picked officials AND the judges in some Preet Bahrara deep state conspiracy???

Well, other conspiracies aside, I thought it was a good read. I don't think Mycroft yet claimed it was deep state doom, and the article didn't either.
What it seemed to lay out was how it may be directly related to Mueller's work. And that as described, it may be sophisticated maneuvering to get what they need for a thorough investigation, all legal, all approved, all warranted, all observing attorney-client privilege.
If there is truth to what they suspect in that article, I'd personally see that as another of the many blessings I have to count in our having had Mueller brought on board to investigate this as special counsel.

 

[Mycroft]

Good find.

Still appears to observe client/attorney privileged, so it's on the up and up where that is concerned.
It was actually referred to Rosenstein, and Rosenstein referred it, as a matter of technicality, so any implication that Mueller is acting rogue or outside his scope, would be inappropriate too.

The issue is what they are doing is legal and not uncommon for this type of high stakes criminal investigation. The Constitution is not being violated, they are not breaking the law, Mueller has not gone rogue, it's not Gestapo (slingshot bob), etc. It's unnerving to be sure, and entertaining to some, but it's the secrecy that ultimately frustrates most of us. We're using to getting to know everything immediately.

Having read up on the tactics they have to use to get at organized white collar criminals who have a history of hiding their misdeeds with money and expertise, I would not doubt it's related for a second either I suppose.

I was never concerned about the attorney/client issue. If you remember correctly, my concern was Mueller getting information that he normally wouldn't have access to and no justification to get a warrant to get access to.

As to whether such a tactic is legal or not...I don't know. Whether Mueller's use of such information...gotten in such a manner...in some court proceedings could be challenged by the defense...I think that is likely.

But fundamentally, I think this kind of tactic...if it is, in fact, being used by Mueller...is wrong. If Mueller is doing this, then I have to agree with Rand Paul

https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/983704421015179264/video/1

 

[jnug]

Oh please, now you're including all the Trump hand picked officials AND the judges in some Preet Bahrara deep state conspiracy???

View attachment 67231478

Just stop, please stop, my sides are hurting from laughing! :lamo

As usual, once these guys become podcasters, they find ways to say nothing compellingly. Bharara is no different. He asks "will Mueller and the NY DA share this witness if he flips, referring to Cohen". Depends on the plea deal Cohen would sign. That said, I would not be at all surprised if they would share Cohen and nobody else should be surprised either. If that is Bharara's contention for how the handoff from Mueller was possibly "not clean", try again. Like I said, if you want to find people who can say nothing compellingly, find somebody with a podcast he is trying to peddle.

 

[Mach]

in some court proceedings could be challenged by the defense...I think that is likely.

Attorney's challenge all sort of things, like Manafort's attorney's..they are batting zero though currently. I agree, they may challenge all sorts of things instead of just cooperating.

But fundamentally, I think this kind of tactic...if it is, in fact, being used by Mueller...is wrong. If Mueller is doing this, then I have to agree with Rand Paul

But legal and under oversight of career DOJ folks. So I don't know what you see as wrong really.

Rand Paul says going after someone's private attorney is an overstep...of what? Overstep of the law? No. Of his authority? No. Then what?
The fact is, it was Trump and Cohen's choice for Cohen to be involved in things that appear to be criminal enough to warrant a raid. Just being someone's personal attorney is not grounds for a raid, which is what Rand implies. Using your attorney as a fixer who engages in crimes on your behalf, that's very much justified.

Just imagine if you could hire a personal attorney and have them commit crimes, and any attempt to investigate them was considered "an overstep" (whatever that means). We'd all hire attorneys and have them engage in criminal activity....it makes no sense IMO.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Democrates hate America

Oy and so do Aussies

 

[Mycroft]

Attorney's challenge all sort of things, like Manafort's attorney's..they are batting zero though currently. I agree, they may challenge all sorts of things instead of just cooperating.


But legal and under oversight of career DOJ folks. So I don't know what you see as wrong really.

Rand Paul says going after someone's private attorney is an overstep...of what? Overstep of the law? No. Of his authority? No. Then what?
The fact is, it was Trump and Cohen's choice for Cohen to be involved in things that appear to be criminal enough to warrant a raid. Just being someone's personal attorney is not grounds for a raid, which is what Rand implies. Using your attorney as a fixer who engages in crimes on your behalf, that's very much justified.

Just imagine if you could hire a personal attorney and have them commit crimes, and any attempt to investigate them was considered "an overstep" (whatever that means). We'd all hire attorneys and have them engage in criminal activity....it makes no sense IMO.

I don't have a beef with someone going after Cohen if there is evidence of him committing a crime. I DO have a beef if it turns out that Mueller is using this situation to get access to information he wouldn't normally be able to get.

 

[JasperL]

Good try, but attorney-client privilege is attorney client privilege, and I look forward to seeing you sorry pieces of trash walk this back.

You people are destroying every good thing about our legal system just to get to a politician you don't like. That's all I have to say about this.

The "you people" here include Trump appointees Rosenstein, Wray, and the SDNY USA, as well as a federal judge. It's nice you're blaming Trump minions for destroying our legal system, but I'm surprised TBH. :roll:

 

[chuckiechan]

Attorney-Client privilege only comes into play if Trump was the target of this raid... but what about if it wasn't Trump at all? What about if it was Cohen?

Actually the way these work is they box up the entire office. Files, computers, etc, then take them to the office and go thought them. Obviously :roll: Mueller would never accept privileged information, and would reject it with out looking at it. :roll::roll:

And again we have another process crime in the sieve.

I would like Trump to fire Sessions, get an AG who would appoint fifty Special Fishermen and take the Clintons, DoJ, FBI, Clinton Inc, the Clinton Foundation, Wasserman-Schultz. Loretta Lynch, Obama, and any other of the Democrat rogues gallery I may have left out. .

 

[JasperL]

I agree with you to an extent. This is how Mueller should have handled the Manafort money laundering as well, but he didn't. The chilling thing is what the actions of the NY AG do to the protections of attorney-client privilege.

I think you mean the Trump appointed U.S. Attorney for the SDNY.

It's even more chilling how eagerly many Americans jettison their support for legal protections when the abuse is against someone they don't like.

There's no evidence of abuse here. There was a long line of Trump people involved in approving this raid, and it was signed off on by a federal judge, as is customary and appropriate in our system.

 

[JasperL]

Exactly. When I was young and naive I used to be puzzled by world history and how a free people could allow themselves to devolve in to a police state, and with every passing year I am given a new example of how it happens.

There's evidence of that happening, just not in this case.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Good try, but attorney-client privilege is attorney client privilege, and I look forward to seeing you sorry pieces of trash walk this back.

You people are destroying every good thing about our legal system just to get to a politician you don't like. That's all I have to say about this.

Suddenly the people who vehemently support a known serial liar are all lawyers.

In a nutshell, you are wrong. If, and it is if, there is an issue regarding attorney client privilege there are various means that can be used; it's not like in the 600 years of British Common law a situation like this has never happened before. One way is to appoint a friend of the court, an independent attorney who reviews material before them being released.

The fact this issue is being raised in now seven threads, shows just how frightened you all are. We do not even know if this even has ANYTHING to do with Trump. Maybe Cohen has his own **** to hide. In which case you've gone off the ****ing deep end at the POSSIBILITY this raid involves the White House. That doesn't exactly say there is a lot trust in the White House...his own people instantly believe Trump is not only again in trouble, but now 'experts' in law assuming he's guilty.

Republicans, you are a ****ing hoot. Thanks. Best comedy I've had in weeks.

But the best is the stupidity of assuming to know more about the law than lawyers, boom that one wins the **** trophy

 

[JasperL]

I know enough that it has been upheld in the Supreme Court, and to know that the legal work around to attorney-client privilege is not calling some goons to kick down the attorney's door.

I suspect Rosenstein and Berman (USA for SDNY) and the federal judge who approved the warrant all have an even BETTER grasp than you do, and yet they approved and searched Cohen's office.