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Mosque set on fire in Germany, Islamophobia and racism?

Just generally Sut. Are yopu against your Islamist government. I have many Turkish friends and they despise Erdogan for so many reasons. Just yes or no will do.

I disagree with most of his policies; but when he was in Germany and delivering a speech; He said ‘assimilation is a crime against humanity’ after some policies of German government and events in daily life.

We are now talking about attacks to mosques and muslims(mostly Turk) praying there; I hardly can oppose his point for German approach to Turks and mosques.
 
I disagree with most of his policies; but when he was in Germany and delivering a speech; He said ‘assimilation is a crime against humanity’ after some policies of German government and events in daily life.

We are now talking about attacks to mosques and muslims(mostly Turk) praying there; I hardly can oppose his point for German approach to Turks and mosques.



I can just say that I, as a German, agree with what Muslim leaders in Germany said on their "action day" against violence last month: That attacks motivated by hatred, such as attacks on synagogues, churches and mosques are crimes and must be condemned, as much as attacks on individual Jews, Christians or Muslims.

I hope that the perpetrators are found, arrested and convicted.


Süt and Ataturk, since you are Turkish (right?), I want to address you directly. I used to consider myself rather open towards immigrants and did and still do my best not to broad-brush any of them, but to meet them with an open mind, and judge an individual as individual.

However, there are some experiences I made with Muslim immigrants in Germany, by far most of whom are Turkish, that happen to appear so often that I cannot help but reaching the conclusion it's not a coincidence, but has to do with the mentality/attitudes of at least a significant minority of Turks in Germany.

Needless to say I know enough examples to the contrary, as well: Well integrated, very peaceful and friendly immigrants/immigrant offsprings. Yet this problem does bother me:

My gay friends often hide their relationship on the street -- not because of right-wing native Germans, but because of Muslim immigrant youngsters. They've never been attacked by native Germans, but often enough by Turkish or Arabs. Likewise, I hear all the time from women -- even from some who are extremely liberal and open-minded -- that they don't go shopping anymore to Turkish stores and change the side of the street when a Turkish immigrant comes along, because it's their experience that they'll always get a sexist remark, a cheap "invitation", but at very least a salivating look on their boobs, as certain as it is that the sun will rise again next morning, by the Turkish men there.

More than 20% of the Muslims in Germany say in polls that they feel our constitution is not compatible with their religion. 30% to 40% of the Imams in Germany are teaching anti-constitutional ideas, according to surveys. Salafism is increasingly popular among Muslims youngsters in Germany, 400 of them have joined ISIS already. Whenever Israel is just farting, there are hundreds of Muslims on the street here protesting against "Zionist fascism", but the same peple stay at home when Muslims murder non-Muslims, such as ISIS. Jews in Germany said today, the situation for Jews is worse than it has ever been since the 1940s, mostly because of Muslim anti-Semitism imported by immigrants.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. According to my experience, I have never heard of a Muslim immigrant offspring here whose parents would have tolerated if they wanted to marry a non-Muslim. In many Muslim families, parents chose the future spouses of their children, or at least consider it their natural right to be asked about it, maintaining a veto. And of course, none of these people has ever heard of democatic education -- domestic violence is common by Muslim men against their wifes and considered natural part of raising children.

How do you explain that? Do you think a free, open and liberal society has to tolerate attitudes like that? Are we Nazis or bigots when we defend our liberal values against this kind of Muslim fascism? I don't think so.

So what do you suppose should be done to improve the situation for both sides in Germany? How can we teach the significant minority among Turkish Muslims here, who simply behave like ****, treat women with no respect and hate gays, that this behavior is not acceptable in a free country? Shall we attack their religion of Islam? Shall we just attack these attitudes?
 
What do you mean when you say "characteristic behavior of Germans, etc"? How is that not a bigoted, racist comment?

Fill us in.

It's not racist since German is not a race. Does look bigoted, though. First of all, what happened here cannot be excused. By the same token, how often are we told we need to understand (and maybe even have some sympathy for) why terrorism occurs and it usually centers around being a backlash for the actions of this nation or that nation. It's curious to me why nobody says the same thing about certain actions by militant Islamists and how that can also create a backlash.
 
I can just say that I, as a German, agree with what Muslim leaders in Germany said on their "action day" against violence last month: That attacks motivated by hatred, such as attacks on synagogues, churches and mosques are crimes and must be condemned, as much as attacks on individual Jews, Christians or Muslims.

I hope that the perpetrators are found, arrested and convicted.


Süt and Ataturk, since you are Turkish (right?), I want to address you directly. I used to consider myself rather open towards immigrants and did and still do my best not to broad-brush any of them, but to meet them with an open mind, and judge an individual as individual.

However, there are some experiences I made with Muslim immigrants in Germany, by far most of whom are Turkish, that happen to appear so often that I cannot help but reaching the conclusion it's not a coincidence, but has to do with the mentality/attitudes of at least a significant minority of Turks in Germany.

Needless to say I know enough examples to the contrary, as well: Well integrated, very peaceful and friendly immigrants/immigrant offsprings. Yet this problem does bother me:

My gay friends often hide their relationship on the street -- not because of right-wing native Germans, but because of Muslim immigrant youngsters. They've never been attacked by native Germans, but often enough by Turkish or Arabs. Likewise, I hear all the time from women -- even from some who are extremely liberal and open-minded -- that they don't go shopping anymore to Turkish stores and change the side of the street when a Turkish immigrant comes along, because it's their experience that they'll always get a sexist remark, a cheap "invitation", but at very least a salivating look on their boobs, as certain as it is that the sun will rise again next morning, by the Turkish men there.

More than 20% of the Muslims in Germany say in polls that they feel our constitution is not compatible with their religion. 30% to 40% of the Imams in Germany are teaching anti-constitutional ideas, according to surveys. Salafism is increasingly popular among Muslims youngsters in Germany, 400 of them have joined ISIS already. Whenever Israel is just farting, there are hundreds of Muslims on the street here protesting against "Zionist fascism", but the same peple stay at home when Muslims murder non-Muslims, such as ISIS. Jews in Germany said today, the situation for Jews is worse than it has ever been since the 1940s, mostly because of Muslim anti-Semitism imported by immigrants.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. According to my experience, I have never heard of a Muslim immigrant offspring here whose parents would have tolerated if they wanted to marry a non-Muslim. In many Muslim families, parents chose the future spouses of their children, or at least consider it their natural right to be asked about it, maintaining a veto. And of course, none of these people has ever heard of democatic education -- domestic violence is common by Muslim men against their wifes and considered natural part of raising children.

How do you explain that? Do you think a free, open and liberal society has to tolerate attitudes like that? Are we Nazis or bigots when we defend our liberal values against this kind of Muslim fascism? I don't think so.

So what do you suppose should be done to improve the situation for both sides in Germany? How can we teach the significant minority among Turkish Muslims here, who simply behave like ****, treat women with no respect and hate gays, that this behavior is not acceptable in a free country? Shall we attack their religion of Islam? Shall we just attack these attitudes?

If this is arson, of course it's not justified. But it's a sign that some of the native people--Germans in this case--are not confident their government will protect their interests. Vigilantism thrives where people feel the authorities either cannot or will not do the job. I've read about all sorts of lawless, violent actions by Muslims in quite a few European nations, and striking back with violence is one sign the local people are fed up with it. There are others--for example, Marine Le Pen and the National Front did very well in the French elections earlier this year, and her views on Muslim immigration certainly had something to do with that.

Why not just avoid people who do things like you described these Turks and Arabs as doing, and get the police after them if they commit crimes? The European nations that are being subverted by Islamists have brought the problem on themselves through their policies. I think it's foolish for any country, including the U.S., to allow aliens to enter and become resident, unless it has a sure way to deport them if they don't behave like good citizens. And it's beyond foolish to allow aliens to enter and stay illegally, as has become common practice here in the U.S. This would be bad enough if they were all decent people--but many are not.

Illegal aliens have murdered a number of police here in Southern California, and then fled to Mexico, making it very hard to extradite them. In one case near me, one of them shot an officer without warning during a traffic stop--and then, as the wounded man lay in the road, calmly walked over and murdered him with a shot to the head. About 30% of the inmates in federal prisons in the U.S. are illegal aliens, mostly Mexicans.

I'm convinced these problems with immigrants in various Western nations are partly the product of what's been called "white liberal guilt." It's the notion that it's just not fair for you to have things so much better than people in less wealthy countries, so that it's your duty as a nice person to share some of it with them. It reminds me of an old French movie called "Boudu Saved from Drowning." A middle-class guy sees a bum jump off a bridge one day and helps fish him out of the river. He takes him home, gives him dry clothes and hot food, and does all he can to help. And of course the bum repays the kindness with nothing but surliness and ingratitude.
 
I can just say that I, as a German....

I am suprised. You think A personal story and some obervations can justify all those attacks to 81 mosques in the last two years. What is more pathetic than this is that A condemnation is put in the first paragraph and then a personal story and observation to justify those attacks. You claim to be liberal; however, you still cannot explain German mentality behind the attacks to Mosques, Turks and other muslims.

Do you have any objective arguments, or that story is your only hope to justify and explain those attacks? For example, I could not see anything in your ''story'' about what the government does, or what the german society thinks and acts, or what the police and other security forces do in order to stop those attacks. Another pathetic thing is that you try to explain those attacks with the words of who are attacked in Germany. That is why i ask for any objective arguments, but it seems the number will not stop at 81, it will increase more than ever.

You should not worry that I will not mention about the treatment(discrimination or harassment etc.) to muslims in daily life in Germany; I do not spread hatred or any kind of lame justification for something. Also I do not want to derail the topic.


I will mention about some facts about German state and society:

- Solingen arson attack to a Turkish family in 1993: 5 deaths, 14 injured,

- Bosphorus serial murders(Döner killings) 2000-2007: 9 deaths, nine of whom were Turks, and the last one was a Greek who was regarded as Turk, German security forces are found linked to murderers,

- Anti-foreigner attacks rose by 20.4% to 473 in 2013, were 393 in 2012,

- In 2012 An attempt to ban on a religious belief of Muslims(also jews),

- a study by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, 56 percent of Germans consider Islam to be an "archaic religion, incapable of fitting into modern life" and many believe religious freedom for Muslims should be "substantially restricted."

Islamophobic Hate Groups Become More Prominent in Germany - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Btw, ı remember in another topic you were talking about oppression and brutalization of a society; Where did that humanitarian side of you go? Do you have any principle or just have some thoughts that change according to the situation.
 
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I am suprised. You think A personal story and some obervations can justify all those attacks to 81 mosques in the last two years. What is more pathetic than this is that A condemnation is put in the first paragraph and then a personal story and observation to justify those attacks. You claim to be liberal; however, you still cannot explain German mentality behind the attacks to Mosques, Turks and other muslims.

Do you have any objective arguments, or that story is your only hope to justify and explain those attacks? For example, I could not see anything in your ''story'' about what the government does, or what the german society thinks and acts, or what the police and other security forces do in order to stop those attacks. Another pathetic thing is that you try to explain those attacks with the words of who are attacked in Germany. That is why i ask for any objective arguments, but it seems the number will not stop at 81, it will increase more than ever.

You should not worry that I will not mention about the treatment(discrimination or harassment etc.) to muslims in daily life in Germany; I do not spread hatred or any kind of lame justification for something. Also I do not want to derail the topic.


I will mention about some facts about German state and society:

- Solingen arson attack to a Turkish family in 1993: 5 deaths, 14 injured,

- Bosphorus serial murders(Döner killings) 2000-2007: 9 deaths, nine of whom were Turks, and the last one was a Greek who was regarded as Turk, German security forces are found linked to murderers,

- Anti-foreigner attacks rose by 20.4% to 473 in 2013, were 393 in 2012,

- In 2012 An attempt to ban on a religious belief of Muslims(also jews),

- a study by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, 56 percent of Germans consider Islam to be an "archaic religion, incapable of fitting into modern life" and many believe religious freedom for Muslims should be "substantially restricted."

Islamophobic Hate Groups Become More Prominent in Germany - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Btw, ı remember in another topic you were talking about oppression and brutalization of a society; Where did that humanitarian side of you go? Do you have any principle or just have some thoughts that change according to the situation.

Uhm... did you even read what I wrote about the arson attack?

It cannot be justified. It's a crime, period. Those responsible must be brought to justice.

I said that.

Even if anything I explained in my posting is true, it is still not justified setting fire on a mosque. And that you even think that what was I meant, makes me think you are projecting your own mentality.

And now you use this as a means to distract from the points I made.

You are not exactly helping to improve my negative image of Turks here.
 
Uhm... did you even read what I wrote about the arson attack?

It cannot be justified. It's a crime, period. Those responsible must be brought to justice.

I said that.

Even if anything I explained in my posting is true, it is still not justified setting fire on a mosque. And that you even think that what was I meant, makes me think you are projecting your own mentality.

And now you use this as a means to distract from the points I made.

You are not exactly helping to improve my negative image of Turks here.

If you are finished ''analyzing'' here; Could you please say something to talk about with counter arguments? You can run but not hide...

You could start to define the attacks..Islamophobia or racism?
 
If you are finished ''analyzing'' here; Could you please say something to talk about with counter arguments? You can run but not hide...

You could start to define the attacks..Islamophobia or racism?

How do I know? What does it even matter? There are fringe radicals in any society.

Now will you please address my posting?
 
How do I know? What does it even matter? There are fringe radicals in any society.

Now will you please address my posting?

...please shoo, no intention to go into another troll war.
 
- There is a lack of support for victims of racist acts or racial discrimination on the part of government bodies, for example through racial profiling.

-Since the reunification the number of murders and the level of violence motivated by racism and homo/transphobia are high in Germany.

-The high rate of “under-reporting” of offences involving racism and homo/transphobia reflects a lack of confidence on the part of vulnerable groups in the effectiveness of criminal proceedings brought by the police and the prosecution services.

-The notion of racism is often interpreted too narrowly in Germany and is linked to organised groups.

-The Action Plan against Racism and Intolerance has not been updated since 2008.

-The National Action Plan on Integration also does not include a section on the fight against racism and intolerance.

-The strategic and operational objectives set out in the National Action Plan on Integration are not accompanied by indicators and target values, although such indicators are published along with information on the trends they show.

-The enrolment rate of children of migrant background in pre-school facilities, the provision of support to them throughout their educational path and the number of them attending Gymnasium (the type of secondary education preparing pupils for university) are still insufficient. Teachers are three times more likely to recommend Gymnasium, if the child is from a higher socio-economic status, which is detrimental for children of migrant background.

-There is considerable discrimination towards LGBT persons, which contributes to the tendency for LGBT persons to conceal their sexual orientation. Particularly in schools, there is a high level of homo/transphobia.

-At federal level and in several Länder, there is no strategy for raising awareness of these issues among the majority population, increasing tolerance towards LGBT persons and countering discrimination.

There are some passages taken from the last report of ECRI (European Commission against Racism and Intolerance) over Germany, which is published 25 feb. 2014.

I would like to ask it again It is Islamophobia or racism; it is systemactic actions taken by the government and German society.
 
There are some passages taken from the last report of ECRI (European Commission against Racism and Intolerance) over Germany, which is published 25 feb. 2014.

I would like to ask it again It is Islamophobia or racism; it is systemactic actions taken by the government and German society.

Have you ever even lived in Germany? I hear a lot of whining but in reality you don't have any idea whatsoever what it's like. I've lived here as an immigrant for many years now and I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that anyone is being grossly mistreated. Hell, there are several fresh-off-the-plane muslims at my work and everyone gets along in harmony.

Personally I think you're just crying to cry. If you really care about how the west perceives Islam why don't you start trying to clean Islam up yourself. If it has a bad name and people mistrust them, it's because radical muslims make the religion look violent and awful, and moderate muslims like yourself tolerate it.

I can personally guarantee you that muslims in Europe are treated dramatically and fundamentally better than a western non-muslim will ever be treated in Turkey in or anywhere in the middle east. Before you start pointing fingers, look in the mirror.

How do I know? What does it even matter? There are fringe radicals in any society.


Now will you please address my posting?

I can't help but feel like this guy is trolling you. He posts a few links of incidents where muslims have been attacked then claims it's a systematic and intentional persecution by the German government. His persecution complex rivals that of an American christian.

He's got a lot to say about the alleged "persecution of muslims in the west", but not a god damn word to say about the horribly racist and pathologically violent acts his government and all of the governments surrounding him commit against non-muslims.
 
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Mini-Kristallnacht with a twist?

Bloody bigoted pigs.
 
Have you ever even lived in Germany? I hear a lot of whining but in reality you don't have any idea whatsoever what it's like. I've lived here as an immigrant for many years now and I haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that anyone is being grossly mistreated. Hell, there are several fresh-off-the-plane muslims at my work and everyone gets along in harmony.

Personally I think you're just crying to cry. If you really care about how the west perceives Islam why don't you start trying to clean Islam up yourself. If it has a bad name and people mistrust them, it's because radical muslims make the religion look violent and awful, and moderate muslims like yourself tolerate it.

I can personally guarantee you that muslims in Europe are treated dramatically and fundamentally better than a western non-muslim will ever be treated in Turkey in or anywhere in the middle east. Before you start pointing fingers, look in the mirror.



I can't help but feel like this guy is trolling you. He posts a few links of incidents where muslims have been attacked then claims it's a systematic and intentional persecution by the German government. His persecution complex rivals that of an American christian.

He's got a lot to say about the alleged "persecution of muslims in the west", but not a god damn word to say about the horribly racist and pathologically violent acts his government and all of the governments surrounding him commit against non-muslims.

You have said many things about the Islam and muslims, but no word on the attacks and the report written by the experts and very respected organisation in the union.

Will you and some others stop analyzing me or showing your emotional side instead of intellectual one, if any? Could you please show some arguments instead of personal story or anger issue burst in the topic?

I know it hurts when you face the reality, but why the anger on me or the subject in the report?

I am presenting the facts, do the same to answer the question, or shoo please, this is a serious problem that cannot be sacrificed for your personal anger issues.
 
I know it hurts when you face the reality, but why the anger on me or the subject in the report?
Yes, mosque's were attacked in Germany which is inexcusable.

Have you been as vociferous when synagogues are attacked in Europe, or Christians are massacred in Iraq?

A rhetorical question.
 
German Guy.

I am not Turkish. I am British and Jewish. Ataturk is one of my greatest heroes of all time. He transformed Turkey from a failing backwater Caliphate into a modern European state, emancipated women, got rid of head covering for women and educated them, brought roman script to replace Arabic and secularised the nation whilst simultaneously fighting a war against the French.

I have still not heard from Sut why he seems to agree that assimilation is a crime against humanity.

Obviously the attacks against mosques are entirely unnacceptab;e but the actions of Muslim in Europe is also utterly unnacceptable.
 
While I agree that all actions of such have to be punished. I hope they find the criminals who decided to burn the mosque but I'd like to attract attention to the language used here.

Everytime a criminal action is done against a minority group -> racism and xenophobia of some kind.
Everytime a criminal action is done by a minority group -> it's due to socio-economics.
I'm just saying, lets drop the BS, ok? It's either socio-economics all round or racism all-round.

Also, considering that just a few days ago this happened:
http://rt.com/news/194060-germany-kurds-muslims-brawls/
(apologies for the fact that it's RT)
More Than 20,000 Kurds Protest in Germany Against Islamic State - WSJ

BBC News - Turkey Kurds: Kobane protests leave 19 dead

It seems to me that maybe there is another prime suspect in this inquiry except neo nazis.
 
Doubting that süt would post something of this nature, I take the liberty of doing so myself.

German journalists arrested in Turkey for covering Kurdish protests
12 October 2014

One day following claims by Turkish President Recip Tayyip Erdogan that international media were playing a role in fomenting unrest among Kurds in southern Turkey, five foreign journalists were reportedly arrested in Diyarbakir, apparently while covering clashes between protesters and security forces.

Three of the reporters were German photojournalists, identified as Ruben Martin Neugebauer, Björn Kietzmann and Christian Grodotzki. They are accused of being spies, according to friends campaigning for their release. The nationalities of the other two journalists are not yet known. According to a message published on Björn Kietzmann's Twitter account, the three were arrested for covering Kurdish protests.

Deutsche Welle

Is this Europhobia or racism?

Fortunately, the three German journalists have been released. No word yet on the fate of the other two arrested foreign journalists. According to the Press Freedom Index compiled by Reporters Without Borders, Turkey ranks 154th out of 180 nations. There are ~40 Turkish journalists imprisoned by the Erdogan government.
 
You have said many things about the Islam and muslims, but no word on the attacks and the report written by the experts and very respected organisation in the union.

Will you and some others stop analyzing me or showing your emotional side instead of intellectual one, if any? Could you please show some arguments instead of personal story or anger issue burst in the topic?

I know it hurts when you face the reality, but why the anger on me or the subject in the report?

I am presenting the facts, do the same to answer the question, or shoo please, this is a serious problem that cannot be sacrificed for your personal anger issues.

No, what you presented was a few random, unlinked cases of where muslims were attacked. For every one of these cases I could show you 100 where white christians have been attacked in the same country. You'd have to prove that muslims are systematically persecuted more than non-muslims, which you can't, because Germany is about as politically correct as it comes.

A christian was once raped in Turkey. I guess you're a horrible regime that attacks christians.
 
No, what you presented was a few random, unlinked cases of where muslims were attacked. For every one of these cases I could show you 100 where white christians have been attacked in the same country. You'd have to prove that muslims are systematically persecuted more than non-muslims, which you can't, because Germany is about as politically correct as it comes.

A christian was once raped in Turkey. I guess you're a horrible regime that attacks christians.

shoo please
 
shoo please

If you're going to be dishonest then act like a child when someone calls you out on it, then you should run along, boy.

How persecuted you muslims are. It's the west that's violent and aggressive not you, poor guy.
 
If you're going to be dishonest then act like a child when someone calls you out on it, then you should run along, boy.

How persecuted you muslims are. It's the west that's violent and aggressive not you, poor guy.

shoo please
 
shoo please

shoo please


First, you will find this method of removing posters who you do not want to address in a public thread will not be effective.

Second, it's entirely possible this and other acts against Mosques in Germany and violent acts against Turks in Germany are part of a larger push against immigration and Islam expanding. I would also say that integration into German society by Turks and Muslims has not been smooth over the past 20 or 30 years. This may be more of a push against a segregated part of society (Turks/Islam) who do not want to integrate into Westernized German / European society.
 

Football fans and neo-Nazis clash with police in Cologne


Cologne newspaper Kölner Stadt-Anzeiger said drunken protesters hurled bottles, rocks, fireworks and bicycles at police, injuring at least 44. One police van was tipped over. Some of the protesters were reportedly shouting “Foreigners out” and “Free, social and national: National Socialism now”.

A counter demonstration under the motto “Shoulder to shoulder against racism and religious extremism”, organised by anti-fascist activists, had drew about 500 people.


Football fans and neo-Nazis clash with police in Cologne | World news | The Guardian

The Golden Dawn in Greece followed the same path , now they are in Greek parliement.
 
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Amid widespread hatred toward Muslims in German society, a half-built German mosque called the "Süleymaniye Mosque" in the northwestern German town of Dormagen was vandalized in the early hours of Sunday morning. The vandals covered the mosque with swastikas and racist graffiti associated with Nazism.

"Off with you to the concentration camp!" was written on the walls of the mosque, a sign of the growing anti-Muslim sentiment in German society. This racially motivated attack on the mosque is believed to indicate that life for Muslims in Germany has become compromised by vandalism and hatred. Around 4,500 Muslim people live in Dormagen, a town in North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany in the Rhein-Kreis Neuss.


Mosque in Germany vandalized with racist graffiti | Europe | Daily Sabah


Attacking holly places, burning them etc in the middle of Europe...
 
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