More thoughts, more prayers and more dead, it will never end!

[SonOfDaedalus]

Can you explain why "military style" arms should be excluded from 2A protection?

You can have an assault rifle if you are part of a well-regulated militia. Every state can have a militia and members can have an assault rifle.

 

[snakestretcher]

How many gun owners have ever been required to be "in a militia"? The 2A states that "the people" not "militia members" have the right to keep and bear arms.

So what's with the "well-regulated militia" part? Are there any well-regulated militias in America that you can think of which aren't a part of the government?
And no, Bubba and his weekend-warrior buddies hiding out somewhere up a mountain don't count.

 

[ttwtt78640]

And why not? 2A is already an amendment so the Constitution is not written in stone and can be amended.

That is precisely my point - the Constitution can be (and, obviously, has been) amended, but the idea that it can be ignored to "fight crime" is a very bad idea.

 

[Rexedgar]

After reading the 2A:



Can you explain why "military style" arms should be excluded from 2A protection? It seems to most (with basic reading comprehension) that the type of arms to which the 2A is applicable are precisely the kind of arms used by the mlitary (militia) and/or security service personnel (LEOs?). Had the 2A preamble addressed hunting, target shooting or some other purpose then your argumant might have a bit more sway, yet the 2A specifically mentions intended for militia/security use as the type of arms to allow the people to keep and bear (without infringement).

The framers of the Constitution are given too much credit. The second amendment is one the vaguest sentences in US history.

 

[snakestretcher]

The framers of the Constitution are given too much credit. The second amendment is one the vaguest sentences in US history.

Yes, and its interpretation has been argued over since it was written.

 

[OrphanSlug]

We are a pitiful society.

We are a pitiful society because we use political convenience to determine when tone matters.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Do you know who the constitution works? I suggested an amendment that would allow the government to put restrictions on gun ownership. And yes i know what is in the constitution having taken a course in it. You can amend and even repeal amendments and it has been done in the past. A good example is the 21st amendment that repealed the 18th amendment, both dealing with alcohol.

OK, and after that (bolded above) small step we can begin discussion of those additional restrictions.

 

[charliebrown]

This is only my opinion.

For the past generation the things that have increased

Action Movies
Action Video Games
Cell Phones
Internet
Fast Food

Things that have decreased

Family size.
Family time together
Community Size
Community time together
religious study

When we reduce the amount of love and we increase the level of hate, we end up with a more hateful society.

People, this has been going on for a solid twenty years now and if we think it is going to be altered overnight, we are going to be very disappointed.

 

[ocean515]

This country has become a shooting gallery and the citizens just targets for anyone with a grudge. We have had what, 250 or so mass shootings this year with months to go and no one is doing anything to stop it, only sending their thoughts and prayer to the families of the dead. Last night in Dayton the shooter was killed within one minute of his first shot and yet he killed nine and wounded 26. They said he used a "long gun". With that many dead in a minute it had to be some kind of Semi-automatic. And now in the next few days we will hear we have to do something about this from the politico's and the gun's rights people will be running around saying do not blame the guns and nothing will change until the next shooting when the cycle begins again. We are a pitiful society.

So when do you think the discussion will center on why, rather than how?

 

[bluesmoke]

Make Federal law:
Universal background check for gun and ammo purchase
National gun registry
Lengthy gun safety and training classes that must be completed before gun purchase with license issuance
Ballistics record of test-fired round
3-day waiting period
No sales to violent criminals, stalkers, abusers
Cross check annually criminal and gun ownership records
Fingerprinting owners
Limit magazine capacity
Workplace/school weapons ban
Assault weapons ban of civilian ownership
Expand mental health treatment under ACA
Redouble law enforcement review of social media and online sites

Most important are public attitude. Whatever legislation can be shown effective is more to do with public attitude of "I've had enough and I'm not going to take it anymore" than it is the passage and enforcement of the law itself. After all, it's public attitude that gets, or does not get, legislation passed and enforcement kept up.

 

[SonOfDaedalus]

How many gun owners have ever been required to be "in a militia"? The 2A states that "the people" not "militia members" have the right to keep and bear arms.

They were talking about muskets. Everyone can have a musket.

Let's say you disagree and this includes all future weapons.

Ok, so why can't I own grenades, a flamethrower, a bazooka or tank? Can I buy c4?

It seems clear that it's not practical to allow all future weapons.

 

[Manc Skipper]

How many gun owners have ever been required to be "in a militia"? The 2A states that "the people" not "militia members" have the right to keep and bear arms.

Why does the 2a even mention militias if they are not contingent on the people keeping and bearing arms?

 

[ttwtt78640]

You can have an assault rifle if you are part of a well-regulated militia. Every state can have a militia and members can have an assault rifle.

You have stated what you want, not why the 2A allows the state to declare a Constitutional right of the people to be (a privilege?) limited to militia members (or those who take classes, pass tests and/or pay registration fees).

 

[snakestretcher]

They were talking about muskets. Everyone can have a musket.

Let's say you disagree and this includes all future weapons.

Ok, so why can't I own grenades, a flamethrower, a bazooka or tank? Can I buy c4?

It seems clear that it's not practical to allow all future weapons.

Yes; there was a time, over 200 years ago, when there was pretty much a parity between the army and the general public in terms of types of weapon; when the option was either something sharp and pointy, or a muzzle-loader.
The 2A is clearly anachronistic, and the idiots who still fear a 'tyrannical government' turning on them might want to stop and consider why suicide by Apache gunship or Abrams tank might not be such a great idea. Because that's how it would end.

 

[ttwtt78640]

So what's with the "well-regulated militia" part? Are there any well-regulated militias in America that you can think of which aren't a part of the government?
And no, Bubba and his weekend-warrior buddies hiding out somewhere up a mountain don't count.

Well regulated refers to being trained and supplied - does the government do either for "the people"? The 2A does not grant a government power of any kind - in fact, it restricts its power to disarm the people (regardless of their militia duty status).

 

[ttwtt78640]

The framers of the Constitution are given too much credit. The second amendment is one the vaguest sentences in US history.

Only to those who wish it to be. The meaning of "the people" is certainly not more vague in the 2A than elsewhere in the Constitution.

 

[Luther]

It should be very difficult to get a gun. We should acknowledge that we have a problem where nuts buy guns and go around murdering people. I think we can do a good job screening for weirdo loners trying to buy guns. You should be required to visit a psychiatrist to get a gun. You should be required to visit one every 5 years if you own a gun.

Most of these people have extremely dysfunctional lives.

It should be very difficult to get a gun. We should acknowledge that we have a problem where nuts buy guns and go around murdering people

Actually, for most of our past it's been even easier to get a gun and we didn't have mass killings??

The AK- 47 has been around since 1947?

Explain?

 

[Rich2018]

What, exactly, do you propose that we do? Should any and all tools grossly abused by criminals be banned or, as many prefer to put it, "reasonably restricted" (converting a right of the people into a mere state issued privilege)?

Yeah you're right, the USA can't do anything.

Just let the shootings continue.

 

[ttwtt78640]

They were talking about muskets. Everyone can have a musket.

Let's say you disagree and this includes all future weapons.

Ok, so why can't I own grenades, a flamethrower, a bazooka or tank? Can I buy c4?

It seems clear that it's not practical to allow all future weapons.

That is simply a ruse - they were talking about small arms (probably excluding ordinance as you have noted) that were in common use (at the time) by militia (military) members. Would you try to use that argument to exclude digital memory devices from protection as "papers" for 4A protection?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Why does the 2a even mention militias if they are not contingent on the people keeping and bearing arms?

Probably to define what was meant by Arms and to assure us that the government could not restrict "the people" from keeping (buying and possessing) and bearing (carrying) them.

 

[vanceen]

I agree that the Second Amendment contains some odd and vague wording.

However its last phrase is crystal clear and unequivocal. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I don't see any possibility for significant reduction of gun crime, including mass shootings, apart from a general confiscation (buyback) of firearms like Australia and some other countries have implemented. That would absolutely require a repeal of the Second Amendment. There is no realistic possibility of that, and a mandatory confiscation is very likely to lead to at least a certain amount of resistance and bloodshed.

I'm in favor of some additional "sensible" restrictions like universal checks, waiting periods, etc. But I don't for a moment believe that any of that is going to stop many suicides (the clear majority of gun deaths), criminal gang warfare, homicides, accidents, or mass shootings (which represent a tiny, tiny fraction of gun deaths). There's too many guns out there and some people will always find a way to get them.

Whenever there is a mass shooting, there is always a reaction from people suggesting that background checks and the like would reduce or eliminate them. That is fantasy. There are sensible reasons for some more restrictions, but they have little or nothing to do with stopping mass shooters. The self-congratulation I see displayed as part of the knee-jerk reaction to these horrific incidents is off-putting to say the least.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Yeah you're right, the USA can't do anything.

Just let the shootings continue.

Taking away a person's rights or property without due process of law can't (yet) be done. Limiting gun possession to criminals and government agents is, thankfully, not (yet) the law of the land.

 

[TheParser]

We are a pitiful society.

1. To be fair, we are a unique society.

2. There is no nation with such large numbers of different ethnicities, religions, etc.

3. And add to that the fact that we are in a period of transition from X ethnicity being the overwhelming majority to Y and Z ethnicities becoming the overwhelming majority by 2100.

4. There are a few people who are mentally challenged that are acting out in a violent manner.

5. Our so-called "leaders" (of both parties) and our so-called "journalists" should be ashamed of themselves for their irresponsible rhetoric, especially since 2008 up to this very day.

6. You are right: Americans are no longer shocked by these attacks. Just think: Within one week, an attack in California, in Texas, and in Ohio.

7. Until we get some adults in our city, state, and federal governments and in our newsrooms, the outlook is grim.

 

[Crosscheck]

Lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots more people need to die before anything is done by the Mitch McConnells of this world.

And maybe not even then.

When the mass shootings start occurring at locations like Mar-a-Lago rather than Wal Marts.

 

[TobyOne]

How do you know that without all the thoughts and prayers more shootings would be happening?