More 'bad' from Obamacare..

[tererun]

It is realized that you don't want to do any sort of digging (ie work) on your own. Probably due the inability more than the fear that it will upset your already lame beliefs.

you do not have to do digging when the person is claiming outlandish things with no support at all. It is your job to support your own argument to the point where someone has to do digging.

The hint was the anti-kickback laws, and what obamacare does to it...

You claim the anti-kickback law would make it a crime to buy donuts. It doesn't do that, and you really are just implying things you have no idea about at this point.

There was no ignorance in the claim, but clearly there is a whole boatload of it in the two that are too lazy to look into it... it's much easier to flail about and dig that hole.

You just keep shouting insults yet you have no substance to your argument, and when you try you find an unsubstantial argument by some other guy on the internet jumping to really false conclusions also. Please, you have made a terrible argument and even the obamacare haters cannot jump in to help you because it is so bad. You are the one who made the claim that obamacare makes you a felon for buying donuts now you really need to back it with some sort of actual proof and not the delusional rantings of a conspiracy theory blog.

 

[tererun]

More nonsense from someone on the left too lazy to do their homework. Figures.

you may also be confused on this, but this is not school. You are not a teacher, and mosty of us have the general knowledge to refute you claims. But keep on sitting here and telling us we have failed when you cannot even come close to rationalizing your BS.

 

[Arbo]

why do you keep responding when I don't see what you typed?

 

[tererun]

why do you keep responding when I don't see what you typed?

because i am not responding for you. If you thought i was going to just let your comments pass that is not so. The only thing about this is you are not going to defend yourself directly according to that situation. I am perfectly fine with you not confronting any of my arguments or answering any of my questions. i tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and to ask you to specify exactly what you are talking about. The only thing I can say now is you listened to some people who had no idea what they were talking about.

Oh, and yes i know you are reading this, but someone might be really nice to you and actually quote this so you have an excuse for why you actually know this.

 

[Arbo]

Again, since I'm guessing someone (probably all) didn't read it:

The American Spectator : The Criminal Intent of ObamaCare

And since no doubt at least one person will probably rail on about the source, which was the point of using the source to start with ... (to show them to be a fool) Here is another source:

Hanlester v. Shalala – A Victim of Health Reform? by Claire Castles - ABA Health eSource August 2010 Special Edition

Here is a link to the anti-kickback statue:

Health Law Resources - Anti-Kickback Statute

The federal Anti-Kickback Statute (“Anti-Kickback Statute”) is a criminal statute that prohibits the exchange (or offer to exchange), of anything of value, in an effort to induce (or reward) the referral of federal health care program business.

Those not in the medical field are probably oblivious to all this, and how much 'crack down' there has been. For even the appearance of violating this stuff is a bad place to go.

Consider this: A hosptial is looking to upgrade it's CT. A different room they have has issues, and you work long hours to get it working, giving away (comping) time so they are not paying any overtime past their contract hours. In a world where appearances matter, did you do it so they buy the new CT? Or to help them decide that way?

Now babble on again you people that are ignorant about the laws...

 

[roughdraft274]

The hint was the anti-kickback laws, and what obamacare does to it...

ObamaCare doesn't expand the current anti-kickback laws. It only (and I've only seen this in a few shady sources) removes the intent portion of the law, meaning that in the past if you were breaking the law, they had to prove that you intended to break the law, but now they only need to prove that you broke the law. Not a big difference, and nothing that would stop you from working overtime. The anti kickback laws only say that you can't provide referrals for personal gain. Meaning that another doctor can't give you money for every patient you refer to them or anything similar to that.

Basically, you are full of ****. You don't know what you're talking about. Trust me, some guy I know told me that.

 

[Arbo]

ObamaCare doesn't expand the current anti-kickback laws. It only (and I've only seen this in a few shady sources) removes the intent portion of the law, meaning that in the past if you were breaking the law, they had to prove that you intended to break the law, but now they only need to prove that you broke the law. Not a big difference, and nothing that would stop you from working overtime. The anti kickback laws only say that you can't provide referrals for personal gain. Meaning that another doctor can't give you money for every patient you refer to them or anything similar to that.

Basically, you are full of ****. You don't know what you're talking about. Trust me, some guy I know told me that.

You didn't read the last bit of links, which is clearly shown by the wrong information in your post. Thanks for failing, AGAIN.

 

[roughdraft274]

You didn't read the last bit of links, which is clearly shown by the wrong information in your post. Thanks for failing, AGAIN.

The only change ObamaCare makes is that you can be convicted even if you didn't have knowledge or intent of breaking the law. Other than that the law is exactly the same. Your american spectator source is just doing what other conservative sources do when discussing ObamaCare. It imagines a worst case scenario that isn't based in reality and then whines about it for a few paragraphs. It's not based in reality best I can tell.

 

[roughdraft274]

You didn't read the last bit of links, which is clearly shown by the wrong information in your post. Thanks for failing, AGAIN.

Your original post:

The rules and regulations involving third party companies and health providers are already pretty strict. The whole 'gift' thing is tracked pretty hard core. Meaning you are a service guy on equipment at a hospital, you can't bring in coffee or many other things as it is seen as 'bribes' by the government.

Well Obamacare is moving it up a notch. You will shortly not even be able to comp overtime to the customer. Meaning you are working on a system and the clock ticks to the end of their coverage time (via their contract)... right now, you keep working and just comp an hour or two that it takes to finish up so they are not hit with a bill, as it makes more sense to finish the job than to leave and come back. Now that comp time is seen as a 'bribe' just like coffee.

You made a comment that ObamaCare made these changes. That is a lie. As your source points out :

Specifically, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (“PPACA”) amended the federal statute enacting criminal penalties for acts involving federal healthcare programs to include the following two (2) additional subsections that now apply to both false statements and kickbacks:

(g) In addition to the penalties provided for in this section or section 1128A, a claim that includes items or services resulting from a violation of this section constitutes a false or fraudulent claim for purposes of subchapter III of chapter 37 of title 31, United States Code. 1

(h) With respect to violations of this section, a person need not have actual knowledge of this section or specific intent to commit a violation of this section. 2

At no point does ObamaCare address comp time. If comp time is illegal, then it was illegal before obamacare. That's just the facts of the matter. It in no way actually changed what constitutes a kickback.

 

[Arbo]

Your original post:



You made a comment that ObamaCare made these changes. That is a lie. As your source points out :


At no point does ObamaCare address comp time. If comp time is illegal, then it was illegal before obamacare. That's just the facts of the matter. It in no way actually changed what constitutes a kickback.

I understand you do not understand the nature of corporations in the US (and generally across the world) when it comes to reacting to regulations in order to ensure there is no grey line. When the statue says:

The federal Anti-Kickback Statute (“Anti-Kickback Statute”) is a criminal statute that prohibits the exchange (or offer to exchange), of anything of value, in an effort to induce (or reward) the referral of federal health care program business.

And they add on to that the lack of needing 'intent' to prove a case against a person or business, well, business changes how they do things in order to not have to deal with an overbearing government.

 

[roughdraft274]

I understand you do not understand the nature of corporations in the US (and generally across the world) when it comes to reacting to regulations in order to ensure there is no grey line. When the statue says:



And they add on to that the lack of needing 'intent' to prove a case against a person or business, well, business changes how they do things in order to not have to deal with an overbearing government.

Them's the facts chief. If the way you arranged your comp time wasn't illegal before ObamaCare, it still isn't. If it was, then it still is. But you can't blame it on ObamaCare. It sounds like you charge for your services by the hour, and if you work overtime you comp that time rather than get paid overtime. But at the end of the day, you aren't working for free correct? You are still charging them for it? Then it's not a kickback. Simple.

You're welcome. Let me know if you need me to explain anything else to you.

 

[Arbo]

Them's the facts chief. If the way you arranged your comp time wasn't illegal before ObamaCare, it still isn't. If it was, then it still is. But you can't blame it on ObamaCare. It sounds like you charge for your services by the hour, and if you work overtime you comp that time rather than get paid overtime. But at the end of the day, you aren't working for free correct? You are still charging them for it? Then it's not a kickback. Simple.

You're welcome. Let me know if you need me to explain anything else to you.

Again, you have no clue, and continue to prove it. When you start by admitted you are not in the industry and thus have no idea how things work, then a conversation can start.

 

[roughdraft274]

Again, you have no clue, and continue to prove it. When you start by admitted you are not in the industry and thus have no idea how things work, then a conversation can start.

So in other words, when I start taking your word at face value, in other words, blindly trusting one of the more partisan and biased posters on these forums whole heartedly, then you'll agree to actually defend your position?

I showed you word for word what ObamaCare does to kickback laws, and the only thing you can come up to defend your statement is "well it can be scary!". It doesn't work like that. You have to actually show that Obamacare made these changes you are saying it did, and so far you haven't in any way. Your comp time arrangement is either legal or illegal, and the status will not change due to ObamaCare.

 

[Arbo]

So in other words, when I start taking your word at face value, in other words, blindly trusting one of the more partisan and biased posters on these forums whole heartedly, then you'll agree to actually defend your position?

Who said that? Oh you, not anyone else. You need to quit making stuff up.

Do you work in the health care field? Do you go through training about government regulations that effect that field? Simple questions, please answer with either a yes or no.

I showed you word for word what ObamaCare does to kickback laws,

You didn't even know they existed before this thread, so you have shown nothing. Well, you have repeatedly shown your ignorance of the issue and how things work in the industry, but that's about all.

 

[roughdraft274]

Who said that? Oh you, not anyone else. You need to quit making stuff up.

You said it. I just said it for you in a more straight forward way. Without all the bull**** you added.

Do you work in the health care field? Do you go through training about government regulations that effect that field? Simple questions, please answer with either a yes or no.

No and no. And does that matter? Nope. When you actually show me where in ObamaCare it states that gifts and kickbacks will be treated differently, then that will matter. As of right now you have shown no such thing. I don't need to be an expert on these laws to simply point out that the relevant parts in ObamaCare do not change the law as to what constitutes a kick-back. It's just a fact, and you with your childish debate tactic of appealing to authority does not change that. I do work in chemical plants and have to conform my work to EPA regulations. Does that mean that because of that I must be correct when talking about the EPA and you must be wrong? Of course not, it's a stupid argument. Your job is not an argument that you are correct.

You didn't even know they existed before this thread, so you have shown nothing.

So what you're saying is that someone can't be correct on something unless they studied it longer than the other person? If you had an actual argument you would have to resort to these clearly delusional arguments.

Well, you have repeatedly shown your ignorance of the issue and how things work in the industry, but that's about all.

I'm the one who's shown the relevant parts of the law, you're the one saying "trust me, I work in the field." so think what ever you want.

 

[Arbo]

You said it. I just said it for you in a more straight forward way. Without all the bull**** you added.

No, you made crap up, as per the norm. I never said any such thing. So you are telling a lie.

No and no.

About time some honesty come out of you.

I'm the one who's shown the relevant parts of the law,

Oh no, back to telling lies.

Reading your worthless messages is much like watching the woman in that recent video throwing a fit like a 5 year old.

 

[roughdraft274]

Reading your worthless messages is much like watching the woman in that recent video throwing a fit like a 5 year old.

That's rich coming from the guy that thinks "because I work in the field" is a good argument. You can talk all the **** you want but you've failed miserably in demonstrating you're argument. As of right now you've shown nothing that leads to the conclusion that ObamaCare changes the laws that will make the way your company does comp-time illegal. It was either legal or illegal before ObamaCare, and it is the exact same now. It's there for anyone to read in plain english.

 

[Arbo]

I don't need to demonstrate or prove anything. As originally stated, businesses will be and are changing how they do business and that is going to effect the quality and quantity of everyone's health care, and it is due to the 'no intent' modification.

I understand you need to keep interjecting all sorts of BS as you, still to this point, are too lazy to do the work, or too thick to figure it out. The one bit of honesty you put out was that you do not work in the field and do not receive special training WRT such issues. Yet somehow you want to keep babbling on as if you had a clue about any of it. You do not. That is very apparent.

 

[roughdraft274]

I don't need to demonstrate or prove anything. As originally stated, businesses will be and are changing how they do business and that is going to effect the quality and quantity of everyone's health care, and it is due to the 'no intent' modification.

You're original argument was very specific regarding the way in which your company charges overtime. You can't just change your argument to, "well it will change some stuff". That's not how it works. And you have not demonstrated any evidence for your claim. Hence why you aren't referring to it anymore.

 

[Arbo]

You're original argument was very specific regarding the way in which your company charges overtime. You can't just change your argument to, "well it will change some stuff". That's not how it works. And you have not demonstrated any evidence for your claim. Hence why you aren't referring to it anymore.

Yet again, you are incorrect, and still boring. My last post to the first have remained consistent, as has the ignorance displayed in response to it.

 

[Manc Skipper]

"Obamacare gives you cooties!" How many more such threads?

 

[Arbo]

"Obamacare gives you cooties!" How many more such threads?

Hey look, more stupidity!

 

[Deuce]

I don't need to demonstrate or prove anything. As originally stated, businesses will be and are changing how they do business and that is going to effect the quality and quantity of everyone's health care, and it is due to the 'no intent' modification.

I understand you need to keep interjecting all sorts of BS as you, still to this point, are too lazy to do the work, or too thick to figure it out. The one bit of honesty you put out was that you do not work in the field and do not receive special training WRT such issues. Yet somehow you want to keep babbling on as if you had a clue about any of it. You do not. That is very apparent.

No, this is all made up and I don't need to prove that to you. I work in the industry, you see. I know you are lying about this because I work in the industry.

 

[Arbo]

No, this is all made up and I don't need to prove that to you. I work in the industry, you see. I know you are lying about this because I work in the industry.

Mmmm.... you fail.

 

[imagep]

I don't give a crap what or who you trust or believe. It is a reality.

Reality is in the mind of the individual. Your reality differs from that of most "normal" (meaning not crazy) people.