Morality and Belief in God

[blarg]

So what's the source of logic? It seems like you're saying that people have "discovered" it, but not quite saying that the laws of logic are a human convention...

its a way of reasoning so its source in in the mind of everything with that ability

and we do discover true descriptions of it take this fallacy

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToFear


no one had to engineer reality to make this so its just an acurate description of nature something is or is not the case regardless of what the consequences of that are

 

[Quag]

And you have ignored my question. Are "working watch" and non-working watch" subjective? If not, why not?

I havent ignored your question I have answered it repeatedly even before you asked it, see post 363

Yes there is an objective difference between a watch that works or doesn't but whether that is good or bad is a subjective opinion

You keep wanting to pretend working is the same as good and not working is the same as bad

 

[gfm7175]

its a way of reasoning so its source in in the mind of everything with that ability

and we do discover true descriptions of it take this fallacy

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToFear


no one had to engineer reality to make this so its just an acurate description of nature something is or is not the case regardless of what the consequences of that are

So are you willing to say that humanity is the source of logic?

 

[Quag]

I'm not asking what the definition of logic is; I'm asking what the source of it is... Where does it come from (originate)? How did it "come into existence", in other words... More specifically, the "laws of logic" ... all laws have as lawgiver, so who/what is the "lawgiver" for the laws of logic?

Legal laws have a lawgiver(s) but not all laws have a lawgiver(s).
The laws of physics dont require one anymore than logic.

 

[AGENT J]

The laws of logic... idk, like "rules of inference" and "deductive reasoning" "logical fallacies" etc. etc...

What/Who is the source of those things (laws of logic)?

LOL stop dodging and pick one what and whos logic

 

[blarg]

So are you willing to say that humanity is the source of logic?

in the sense that you are the source of

&& being removed from &&&&& being &&&

what is so is so regardless of you your ability to know and describe is part of you

 

[Angel]

I havent ignored your question I have answered it repeatedly even before you asked it, see post 363

You keep wanting to pretend working is the same as good and not working is the same as bad

No one's pretending, unless you are. A good watch is a watch that works, period; a bad watch is a watch that doesn't work, period. Both are objective statements. If you were right, and you're not, if these designations were subjective determinations rather than objective determinations, then it would be as reasonable to say that a good watch is a watch that doesn't work and a bad watch is a watch that works, but this makes nonsense of language, logic, and reason.

 

[blarg]

So are you willing to say that humanity is the source of logic?

hmm but faulty logic seems to be entirely in the mind of people

 

[AGENT J]

No one's pretending, unless you are.

1.) A good watch is a watch that works, period;
2.) a bad watch is a watch that doesn't work, period.
3.) Both are objective statements.
4.) If you were right, and you're not, if these designations were subjective determinations rather than objective determinations, then it would be as reasonable to say that a good watch is a watch that doesn't work and a bad watch is a watch that works, but this makes nonsense of language, logic, and reason.

more feelings and opinions falsely pushed as objective fact that nobody honest educated and objective is buying it

1.) factually prove it, you cant, period
2.) factually prove it, you cant, period
3.) nope both are your opinion
4.) only based on YOUR subjective opinion LMAO

your false claims simply are not working and if you disagree then simply factually prove your claims to be true

 

[devildavid]

No one's pretending, unless you are. A good watch is a watch that works, period; a bad watch is a watch that doesn't work, period. Both are objective statements. If you were right, and you're not, if these designations were subjective determinations rather than objective determinations, then it would be as reasonable to say that a good watch is a watch that doesn't work and a bad watch is a watch that works, but this makes nonsense of language, logic, and reason.

Wrong again. Some watches don't keep accurate time, but they still work. When it comes to watches, good does not mean functioning and bad does not mean non functioning. More word games.

 

[gfm7175]

No one's pretending, unless you are. A good watch is a watch that works, period; a bad watch is a watch that doesn't work, period. Both are objective statements. If you were right, and you're not, if these designations were subjective determinations rather than objective determinations, then it would be as reasonable to say that a good watch is a watch that doesn't work and a bad watch is a watch that works, but this makes nonsense of language, logic, and reason.

Well, I think we both tried in our own respective ways... you're not making any progress and I'm not making any either, given that I'm being told that the laws of logic "just are" and don't require a lawgiver to exist...

I can't hold a discussion based on intellectual dishonesty any more than you can I'm afraid...

 

[gfm7175]

hmm but faulty logic seems to be entirely in the mind of people

Okay... so is this you saying that humanity is the source of logic? That the laws of logic were created by humanity...

 

[gfm7175]

Legal laws have a lawgiver(s) but not all laws have a lawgiver(s).
The laws of physics dont require one anymore than logic.

I'm desperately trying to make some progress here... maybe we'll try this question...

Does logic exist externally or can it only exist inside minds?

 

[devildavid]

I'm desperately trying to make some progress here... maybe we'll try this question...

Does logic exist externally or can it only exist inside minds?

Logic is a human invented concept. It is used by humans with their brains. It does not exist other than as a human concept.

 

[devildavid]

Well, I think we both tried in our own respective ways... you're not making any progress and I'm not making any either, given that I'm being told that the laws of logic "just are" and don't require a lawgiver to exist...

I can't hold a discussion based on intellectual dishonesty any more than you can I'm afraid...

I think both of you are the last ones who should accuse others of intellectual dishonesty.

 

[gfm7175]

Logic is a human invented concept. It is used by humans with their brains. It does not exist other than as a human concept.

You saw where I was going with this in the other thread, but now that you have admitted that the laws of logic are indeed a human concept... Before human beings ever existed on the Earth, would the statement "there are no human beings on the Earth" be a true statement? Yes or no?

 

[blarg]

Okay... so is this you saying that humanity is the source of logic? That the laws of logic were created by humanity...

the thinking happens inside of minds but what is accurately described can exists independently it is not created but discovered


if this many rocks & & & are on top of a hill and this many & are moved away from the top of the hill this many & & remain on top of the hill whether or not any one is or ever was or ever will be around to notice that would be the case

in addition to that

if there were no rocks on top of hills anywhere and there never was or never would be that would still be so

independently of all human thought it's just the nature of such a situation it would be so before the formation of this planet it would be so if every human and mind went extinct

only the awareness of that is sourced in your thoughts an the thoughts of others who are aware independently of one another

 

[gfm7175]

the thinking happens inside of minds but what is accurately described can exists independently it is not created but discovered


if this many rocks & & & are on top of a hill and this many & are moved away from the top of the hill this many & & remain on top of the hill whether or not any one is or ever was or ever will be around to notice that would be the case

in addition to that

if there were no rocks on top of hills anywhere and there never was or never would be that would still be so

independently of all human thought it's just the nature of such a situation it would be so before the formation of this planet it would be so if every human and mind went extinct

only the awareness of that is sourced in your thoughts an the thoughts of others who are aware independently of one another

Okay, so humanity makes use of logic (can process logic), but humanity is NOT the source of the laws of logic? Humanity only discovers them, but did not create them? Alright... if that's the case, then humanity is discovering what the laws of logic are... then humanity did NOT create the laws of logic... Since the laws of logic are being discovered, that means that they exist. It seems as if you admit that a mind is necessary for logic to exist... if the statement is true that, before humans existed, that there were no humans on the earth, then that logic is coming from (grounded in) something transcendent of the human mind.

 

[blarg]

Okay, so humanity makes use of logic (can process logic), but humanity is NOT the source of the laws of logic? Humanity only discovers them, but did not create them? Alright... if that's the case, then humanity is discovering what the laws of logic are... then humanity did NOT create the laws of logic... Since the laws of logic are being discovered, that means that they exist. It seems as if you admit that a mind is necessary for logic to exist... if the statement is true that, before humans existed, that there were no humans on the earth, then that logic is coming from (grounded in) something transcendent of the human mind.

its grounded in the relationships between things because thats all that logic is

a description of those relationships

though inaccurate ones might only exist in minds

 

[gfm7175]

its grounded in the relationships between things because thats all that logic is

a description of those relationships

though inaccurate ones might only exist in minds

So it's grounded in something material? I'm confused as to what you're asserting... I do apologize.

 

[blarg]

So it's grounded in something material? I'm confused as to what you're asserting... I do apologize.

in the material in the hypothetical a description is grounded in what your describing

you may be the source of a description but what your talking about can exist independently of you

though i suppose if you sense something that exists then that alters you a little bit and is a relationship in and of itself

like right now the light coming off of your monitor changes whats hitting your eyes and what the bits of your body that process light and react to that are doing

but that's happening independently of my description of it

well most of the time iv altered the details for when your looking at this post but the overall process was still going on and still would be even if i had never logged in

 

[AGENT J]

Let's try this from the angle of logic itself...

What is the source (grounding) for the laws of logic?

this is going to be awesome
logic varies so youll have to do better

What "laws of logic"?
whos "laws of logic"?

The laws of logic... idk, like "rules of inference" and "deductive reasoning" "logical fallacies" etc. etc...

What/Who is the source of those things (laws of logic)?

LOL stop dodging and pick one what and whos logic

Still waiting...

What and whos logic?

 

[Angel]

Wrong again. Some watches don't keep accurate time, but they still work. When it comes to watches, good does not mean functioning and bad does not mean non functioning. More word games.

Your post inaccurately represents the conversation it joins and does not appear to understand the words "good" and "bad" in this context.
In other words your "wrong again" is wrong again.


Namaste

 

[Angel]

Logic is a human invented concept. It is used by humans with their brains. It does not exist other than as a human concept.

So, by your lights, if human beings did not exist, the world would not in their absence conform to the principle of identity and the law of contradiction. Brilliant!

 

[Angel]

Well, I think we both tried in our own respective ways... you're not making any progress and I'm not making any either, given that I'm being told that the laws of logic "just are" and don't require a lawgiver to exist...

I can't hold a discussion based on intellectual dishonesty any more than you can I'm afraid...

What gets me about some of these atheist-materialist types is their resistance to questioning their own beliefs.