Mistakes happen - U.S. shoots down passenger plane

[MaggieD]

I don't even remember hearing about this, but it's certainly timely to bring it up:

Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air civilian passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai that was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988. The attack took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the Vincennes.All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died.[SUP][1][/SUP] This attack ranks tenth among the deadliest disasters in aviation history, the incident retains the highest death toll of any aviation incident in the Persian Gulf and the highest death toll of any incident involving an Airbus aircraft anywhere in the world.[SUP][2][/SUP] The Vincennes had entered Iranian territorial waters after one of its helicopters drew warning fire from Iranian speedboats operating within Iranian territorial limits.[SUP][3][/SUP]
According to the Iranian government, Vincennes negligently shot down the civilian aircraft: the airliner was making IFF squawks in Mode III (not Mode II used by Iranian military planes), a signal that identified it as a civilian craft, and operators of Vincennes mistook for Mode II.[SUP][4][/SUP]
According to the United States Government, the crew incorrectly identified the Iranian Airbus A300 as an attacking F-14 Tomcat fighter (a plane made in the United States and operated at that time by only two forces worldwide, the United States Navy and the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force).
The event generated a great deal of controversy and criticism of the United States. Some analysts have blamed U.S. military commanders and the captain of Vincennesfor reckless and aggressive behavior in a tense and dangerous environment.[SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP]
In 1996, the United States and Iran reached "an agreement in full and final settlement of all disputes, differences, claims, counterclaims" relating to the incident at theInternational Court of Justice.[SUP][7][/SUP] As part of the settlement, the United States agreed to pay US$61.8 million, an average of $213,103 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims. However, the United States has never admitted responsibility, nor apologized to Iran.[SUP][8][/SUP]
To this day, Iran Air still uses flight number IR655 on the Tehran–Dubai route as a memorial to the victims, contrary to the informal convention amongst many other airlines that discontinue flight numbers associated with tragedies.

Perhaps we'd be wise to take a more wait-and-see attitude about this most recent event in the news . . .

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Crickey - don't panic me with that ****.

Olds news. Still informational - but damn.

 

[Bodi]

I don't even remember hearing about this, but it's certainly timely to bring it up:



Perhaps we'd be wise to take a more wait-and-see attitude about this most recent event in the news . . .

Yeah... history. Calm. Some guy on Fox this morning was almost yelling about how Obama needed to stick it to Putin and we should get involved. Crazy...

 

[StillBallin75]

I forget who said it, but there's a saying that incompetence is usually a better explanation than conspiracy.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I don't even remember hearing about this, but it's certainly timely to bring it up:



Perhaps we'd be wise to take a more wait-and-see attitude about this most recent event in the news . . .

I agree we should wait and see more evidence before pointing fingers and blaming people.

However, there are a few major differences here. For instance: The USS Vincennes did make mistakes, although they had been notified of Iranian threats to fire upon US Naval assets in the Gulf just prior to this incident, and were at high alert prior to the plane being detected by their radar because they had been engaged in a surface encounter with Iranian gun boats, also just prior to the incident. The USS Vincennes made radio calls on both civilian and military frequencies in an attempt get the plane to identify itself - no reply was received. The plane was squawking it's ident number on a military frequency and not a civilian frequency. When the plane reached the range that it could have potentially launched an air to ground ship killing missile, the USS Vincennes fired.

It was a tragedy of errors, understandable but still a tragedy.

This is a lot of information, but look this over to see what happened: Full text of "U.S.S. Vincennes (CG 49) shootdown of Iran Air Flight"

My first glance, is that this was also a tragedy of errors. Different errors, and maybe not as understandable or acceptable in the end, but still a tragedy of errors.

 

[Jango]

Yeah... history. Calm. Some guy on Fox this morning was almost yelling about how Obama needed to stick it to Putin and we should get involved. Crazy...

Oh, kind of like how Reagan stuck it to the Soviet Union after they shot Korean Air Lines flight 007 out of the sky. Oh wait...

 

[beefheart]

I don't even remember hearing about this, but it's certainly timely to bring it up:



Perhaps we'd be wise to take a more wait-and-see attitude about this most recent event in the news . . .

I remember...we tried to deny it for a while..but the evidence pointed to us. I remember the graphic photos of all the bodies floating in the water.

 

[Kurmugeon]

So if that Ukrainian Missile Battery had only been shooting down cargo planes... Everything would be ... Okay?

-

 

[kitcher]

So if that Ukrainian Missile Battery had only been shooting down cargo planes... Everything would be ... Okay?

-

No, but there's a strong difference between killing a small crew of one national origin, and an entire passenger plane full of different nationalities. Both are tragic, but one has more severe consequences than the other.

 

[Kurmugeon]

No, but there's a strong difference between killing a small crew of one national origin, and an entire passenger plane full of different nationalities. Both are tragic, but one has more severe consequences than the other.

It sounds like your saying, as long as Putin and his stand-ins in the Ukraine only kill Ukrainians, its Okay?

I want to be upfront in my saying, I do not support America getting directly involved in the Ukraine.

We can't. We don't have the money, or the available, uncommitted Military, nor do we want a WAR with Russia.

But the actions of that Missile Battery, and the Russia actions behind it, were a great cause of concern, with or without this "Accident".

-

 

[kitcher]

It sounds like your saying, as long as Putin and his stand-ins in the Ukraine only kill Ukrainians, its Okay?

I want to be upfront in my saying, I do not support America getting directly involved in the Ukraine.

We can't. We don't have the money, or the available, uncommitted Military, nor do we want a WAR with Russia.

But the actions of that Missile Battery, and the Russia actions behind it, were a great cause of concern, with or without this "Accident".

-

No, it's not ok. Killing anyone aggressively isn't okay. But the reason we care more about a 300 passage international flight more than a Ukrainian cargo plane is because it affects more nations, and consumes more lives. Malaysia, the Netherlands, and possibly the US, all had citizens on that flight. That's why it's a big deal to us.

 

[Hamster Buddha]

It sounds like your saying, as long as Putin and his stand-ins in the Ukraine only kill Ukrainians, its Okay?

I want to be upfront in my saying, I do not support America getting directly involved in the Ukraine.

We can't. We don't have the money, or the available, uncommitted Military, nor do we want a WAR with Russia.

But the actions of that Missile Battery, and the Russia actions behind it, were a great cause of concern, with or without this "Accident".

-

It sounds like you are condemning it, but don't want to do anything about it. What actions would you support to counter this act? And by the way, this topic is delusional... we don't hide from the truth, the Russians on the other hand always do (i.e. the shootdown of the Korean Flight)

 

[Kurmugeon]

It sounds like you are condemning it, but don't want to do anything about it. What actions would you support to counter this act? And by the way, this topic is delusional... we don't hide from the truth, the Russians on the other hand always do (i.e. the shootdown of the Korean Flight)

I would LIKE America to be able to do something significant about it... But we now Lack the Ability.

We have spent 17 Trillion dollars in new debt, just during the last few Obama-Nation years.

And in that new spending, we have significantly reduced Military Spending, while increasing deployments and the expenditures of both our ammo, hardware use-hours, and military personnel battle fatigue.

It would take DECADES of significant new spending and rebuilding to be in a position were America COULD stand up to Putin/Russia.

And our economy is rapidly diminishing in far more significant ways than we have been willing to openly acknowledge.

America is teetering on the edge of Fiscal Collapse and Default.

We do not have the Ability to contest what is happening in the Ukraine.

-

 

[Hamster Buddha]

I would LIKE America to be able to do something significant about it... But we now Lack the Ability.

We have spent 17 Trillion dollars in new debt, just during the last few Obama-Nation years.

And in that new spending, we have significantly reduced Military Spending, while increasing deployments and the expenditures of both our ammo, hardware use-hours, and military personnel battle fatigue.

It would take DECADES of significant new spending and rebuilding to be in a position were America COULD stand up to Putin/Russia.

And our economy is rapidly diminishing in far more significant ways than we have been willing to openly acknowledge.

America is teetering on the edge of Fiscal Collapse and Default.

We do not have the Ability to contest what is happening in the Ukraine.

-

We don't have to get militarily involved to aid the Ukrainians though. I'd start to send over military equipment and sharing intelligence with the Ukrainians to level the playing field. That wouldn't hurt our debt in the least bit and we don't have to look all big and bad to put a thumb in Putin's eye.

 

[Kurmugeon]

We don't have to get militarily involved to aid the Ukrainians though. I'd start to send over military equipment and sharing intelligence with the Ukrainians to level the playing field. That wouldn't hurt our debt in the least bit and we don't have to look all big and bad to put a thumb in Putin's eye.

So we send over military equipment... Paid for how?

Do we send over our current equipment, therefore further weakening our own military, and its ability to defend our own nation?

Is that EXACTLY what an aggressive, bent on world domination, 1960s USSR, and the 2014 Putin Element of Russia, would want?

We don't have the Money to do more than just pull back and defend our own borders, and Putin&Crew Know it!

We thought we won, when they "Tore down that Wall"... well, maybe we were just suckered!

-

 

[APACHERAT]

I don't even remember hearing about this, but it's certainly timely to bring it up:



Perhaps we'd be wise to take a more wait-and-see attitude about this most recent event in the news . . .

There's more to the story Maggie. There are two versions of the Navy's investigation, unclassified and classified.

But over the past 15 years or so the military industrial and military trades magazines and the USNI "Proceedings" have exposed what the problem was. The USS Vincennes is an Arleigh Burke class destroyer that has the Aegis weapons fire control system. That's where the problem was, unknown at the time the Aegis fire control system is a blue water weapons system and doesn't work as well when in the littorals or in confined seas like the Persian Gulf, Red Sea, Black Sea, etc. It doesn't work well when it's with in a few hundred miles of land.

But **** happens, during the Iraq war U.S. Army Patriot SAM's were involved in three friendly fire incidents.
Hold Your Applause: the Patriot Missile Defense Systemâ

 

[Hamster Buddha]

So we send over military equipment... Paid for how?

Do we send over our current equipment, therefore further weakening our own military, and its ability to defend our own nation?

Is that EXACTLY what an aggressive, bent on world domination, 1960s USSR, and the Putin Element of Russia, would want?

We don't have the Money to do more than just pull back and defend our own borders, and Putin&Crew Know it!

-

We can't just stick fingers in our ears and hum real loudly and just ignore the situation. What happens when Russia really pushes it and starts messing around with Nato allies in eastern Europe, and then we're forced into a larger and more expensive conflict. And we have military equipment being retired all the time, so we don't have to weaken our military to do it. Case in point:





The Davis-Monthan Air Force Base outside Tuscon, Ariz., is where old planes go to die. More than 4,000 military aircraft are parked on the base, from B-52s to stealth bombers, where they are salvaged for parts and broken down for scrap. This 2,600 acre plane 'Boneyard' in Arizona is home to thousands of outdated aeroplanes and helicopters mothballed by the United States Air Force and other allied forces.

 

[APACHERAT]

I remember...we tried to deny it for a while..but the evidence pointed to us. I remember the graphic photos of all the bodies floating in the water.

We never denied the shooting down of the aircraft. How old were you back in 1988 ?

What were your news sources back then ? The Simpsons ?

 

[Kurmugeon]

We can't just stick fingers in our ears and hum real loudly and just ignore the situation. What happens when Russia really pushes it and starts messing around with Nato allies in eastern Europe, and then we're forced into a larger and more expensive conflict. And we have military equipment being retired all the time, so we don't have to weaken our military to do it. Case in point:

View attachment 67169876

View attachment 67169877

The Davis-Monthan Air Force Base outside Tuscon, Ariz., is where old planes go to die. More than 4,000 military aircraft are parked on the base, from B-52s to stealth bombers, where they are salvaged for parts and broken down for scrap. This 2,600 acre plane 'Boneyard' in Arizona is home to thousands of outdated aeroplanes and helicopters mothballed by the United States Air Force and other allied forces.

I've worked on military aircraft and systems for most of the last 30 years. I can tell you, having taken several mothballed KC-135s out of retirement, and put them back into special military testing service, the cost per aircraft is almost, but not quite, as expensive as the cost of building an entirely new, and modern designed aircraft.

We simply do not have the MONEY. It would cost more than 6 Million dollars per aircraft to get those shown in your picture, to just get them into conditions where they could be flown to a foreign country. Much more to make them into functional Warplanes. Other than spare parts for the same models still in service, they are simply scrap metal.

Obama spent the needed funds on social programs, and Democrat Party fat cat largess... 17 Trillion Dollars worth. We don't have the Money.

-

 

[The German]

Yeah sure, mistakes happen, but only Ivan has the stupidity to attempt tempering with the crash sight and blaming others.

 

[APACHERAT]

I would LIKE America to be able to do something significant about it... But we now Lack the Ability....

And in that new spending, we have significantly reduced Military Spending, while increasing deployments and the expenditures of both our ammo, hardware use-hours, and military personnel battle fatigue.

It would take DECADES of significant new spending and rebuilding to be in a position were America COULD stand up to Putin/Russia.

And our economy is rapidly diminishing in far more significant ways than we have been willing to openly acknowledge.

America is teetering on the edge of Fiscal Collapse and Default.

We do not have the Ability to contest what is happening in the Ukraine.

-

It's obvious you're a realist Kurmugeon.

Obama couldn't even put one carrier into the Mediterranean Sea last August during Obama's red line in the sand (Syria) and his stare down with Putin. Obama blinked and our surge carrier at Norfolk couldn't put to sea and surge.

 

[Hamster Buddha]

I've worked on military aircraft and systems for most of the last 30 years. I can tell you, having taken several mothballed KC-135s out of retirement, and put them back into special military testing service, the cost per aircraft is almost, but not quite, as expensive as the cost of building an entirely new, and modern designed aircraft.

We simply do not have the MONEY. It would cost more than 6 Million dollars per aircraft to get those shown in your picture, to just get them into conditions where they could be flown to a foreign country. Much more to make them into functional Warplanes. Other than spare parts for the same models still in service, they are simply scrap metal.

Obama spent the needed funds on social programs, and Democrat Party fat cat largess... 17 Trillion Dollars worth. We don't have the Money.

-

Uhm, 6 million dollars is a drop in the bucket compared to what some of those aircraft are worth. For example, a B52 (not saying we should give them one but for example) costs over 50 million dollars (in 1998). So by your own account, it's pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things. Granted you did say "more", but I can only work with the numbers you give me. And this whole "we don't have money", that just isn't true. We control the US Dollar; if we wanted to, we can just print a trillion dollars (which we've effectively done a couple times under this administration.) And to be clear, I'm not saying that would be a great idea, but I am demonstrating that we can handle this crisis and not worry about some bank coming and forclosing the White House. Finally, we can either spend a few hundred million now to support the Ukranians, or have to spend billions deploying military assets to Europe and our Eastern Nato Allies to curb Russian aggression.

Edit: It's sort of weird that your talking about us bring broke, but then complain about us cutting military spending. Sounds like a contradiction to me...

 

[joG]

I don't even remember hearing about this, but it's certainly timely to bring it up:

Perhaps we'd be wise to take a more wait-and-see attitude about this most recent event in the news . . .

As sad as this certainly is, it is a war zone.
What I do wonder about is that planes are not directed around that airspace.

 

[joG]

I would LIKE America to be able to do something significant about it... But we now Lack the Ability.

We have spent 17 Trillion dollars in new debt, just during the last few Obama-Nation years.

And in that new spending, we have significantly reduced Military Spending, while increasing deployments and the expenditures of both our ammo, hardware use-hours, and military personnel battle fatigue.

It would take DECADES of significant new spending and rebuilding to be in a position were America COULD stand up to Putin/Russia.

And our economy is rapidly diminishing in far more significant ways than we have been willing to openly acknowledge.

America is teetering on the edge of Fiscal Collapse and Default.

We do not have the Ability to contest what is happening in the Ukraine.

-

I don't agree that we can do nothing. We can be disappointed, get very, very angry and draw a few red lines in the sky. We have a presidential team that does these things well.

 

[MaggieD]

As sad as this certainly is, it is a war zone.
What I do wonder about is that planes are not directed around that airspace.

It's my understanding most airlines have now changed their flight plans. You're right. I think if the passengers had known they were flying across a war zone, they'd have canceled their flights.