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Minnesota Officer Was 'Reacting to Presence of Gun,' Lawyer Says...

MickeyW

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A lawyer for the suburban police officer who fatally shot a black man during a traffic stop said on Saturday that the race of the driver, Philando Castile, played no role in how his client responded, and that the officer “was reacting to the presence of a gun” when he opened fire.

“The shooting had nothing to do with race and everything to do with the presence of that gun,” Mr. Kelly said in an interview, noting that Officer Yanez is Latino.

Mr. Castile “was not following the directions of the police officer,” Mr. Kelly said, but he declined to provide further detail.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/u...o-the-presence-of-a-gun-lawyer-says.html?_r=0
 

MickeyW

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I can attest to the fact that many people do not listen to the commands of the officer, because their mouth is going at full speed and they can't talk and listen.
In my experience, now I'm not speaking for all localities or departments, just what I encountered often, that there are two groups that I had the most problem with in that respect.
 

Beaudreaux

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I want to see how this one turns out, because if it actually went down the way the dead man's girlfriend says it went down, then the cop is in serious trouble, and should be. The man was a CCW licensed gun owner and from what the lady says was doing exactly what he's supposed to do which is to show the officer his CCW paperwork along with his ID. In the video, the officer is yelling that he told him to stop and show him his hands. I saw no gun inside the car. It appears that the gun that the CCW had was never drawn. The officer cannot fire and kill a man just because he thinks he MAY pull his gun. If the man in the car had drawn his weapon, then sure, light him up. But it sure doesn't look that way from what I've seen.

It looks to me like the cop got spooked and fired, multiple times, without a direct and present threat to his life. But - I don't know all the facts, and neither does anyone else other than the cop and the lady that was in the car, but the cop didn't see what the lady could see, and the lady couldn't see what the cop could see.

I'm torn on this one, but I'm leaning hard toward bad shoot, given what little is known.
 

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I want to see how this one turns out, because if it actually went down the way the dead man's girlfriend says it went down, then the cop is in serious trouble, and should be. The man was a CCW licensed gun owner and from what the lady says was doing exactly what he's supposed to do which is to show the officer his CCW paperwork along with his ID. In the video, the officer is yelling that he told him to stop and show him his hands. I saw no gun inside the car. It appears that the gun that the CCW had was never drawn. The officer cannot fire and kill a man just because he thinks he MAY pull his gun. If the man in the car had drawn his weapon, then sure, light him up. But it sure doesn't look that way from what I've seen.

It looks to me like the cop got spooked and fired, multiple times, without a direct and present threat to his life. But - I don't know all the facts, and neither does anyone else other than the cop and the lady that was in the car, but the cop didn't see what the lady could see, and the lady couldn't see what the cop could see.

I'm torn on this one, but I'm leaning hard toward bad shoot, given what little is known.

Oh, I completely disagree. A LEO doesn't have to see a gun to shoot. He has to think his life, or the life of others, is in danger. If a cop shouts, "Let me see your hands! HANDS!!!" with a gun in his hand, and you reach for your waistband, he doesnt have to wait to see what you're going to pull out.
 

matchlight

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I can attest to the fact that many people do not listen to the commands of the officer, because their mouth is going at full speed and they can't talk and listen.
In my experience, now I'm not speaking for all localities or departments, just what I encountered often, that there are two groups that I had the most problem with in that respect.

Would those two groups by any chance be Yeshiva students and Mormons in white shirts on bicycles? Notorious troublemakers, both of them.
 

Beaudreaux

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Oh, I completely disagree. A LEO doesn't have to see a gun to shoot. He has to think his life, or the life of others, is in danger. If a cop shouts, "Let me see your hands! HANDS!!!" with a gun in his hand, and you reach for your waistband, he doesnt have to wait to see what you're going to pull out.

True, I agree. I didn't make myself very clear. And, I appreciate you pointing this out.

Like I said, on this one, I'm torn. I wish the video had been started before the officer got to the window, so we could see the interaction in its entirety. But, like I said, or meant to say, if what the officer says happened is accurate then he should be fine, but if what the woman says happened is accurate then it appears to me to be a bad shoot. I guess I'm relying more on her description of the events that I find hard to believe that she would have been able to make up right on the spot and put it on video immediately after a police officer had shot her boyfriend right beside her. She just seemed believable to me.

But... again, and this a big BUT, I don't know what happened. I'm just leaning at this point. If the guy was on fact a CCW license holder he would have been trained in how to act and interact with a police officer, and couple that with the lady's story she tells on the video... well, again, I'm torn.

Again, thanks for pointing out how what I said sounded. I reread it myself and thought - that's not what I said, but there it is.
 

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I really wish there was video of the shooting. There is no reason to believe one person over the other in this case. The dead guy wasn't some criminal. He was working man with a concealed carry license. Obviously someone who cared enough about the law to do things the right way prior to this.

And no cop is going to admit to a bad shoot if there is no video evidence. Hell, even if there IS video evidence. And of course the girlfriend is going to want to make her boyfriend look good. So, frankly, I don't take either the cop or the girlfriend at their word.

Sucky situation.
 

MickeyW

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I want to see how this one turns out, because if it actually went down the way the dead man's girlfriend says it went down, then the cop is in serious trouble, and should be. The man was a CCW licensed gun owner and from what the lady says was doing exactly what he's supposed to do which is to show the officer his CCW paperwork along with his ID. In the video, the officer is yelling that he told him to stop and show him his hands. I saw no gun inside the car. It appears that the gun that the CCW had was never drawn. The officer cannot fire and kill a man just because he thinks he MAY pull his gun. If the man in the car had drawn his weapon, then sure, light him up. But it sure doesn't look that way from what I've seen.

It looks to me like the cop got spooked and fired, multiple times, without a direct and present threat to his life. But - I don't know all the facts, and neither does anyone else other than the cop and the lady that was in the car, but the cop didn't see what the lady could see, and the lady couldn't see what the cop could see.

I'm torn on this one, but I'm leaning hard toward bad shoot, given what little is known.

Pretty much agree.

Oh, I completely disagree. A LEO doesn't have to see a gun to shoot. He has to think his life, or the life of others, is in danger. If a cop shouts, "Let me see your hands! HANDS!!!" with a gun in his hand, and you reach for your waistband, he doesnt have to wait to see what you're going to pull out.

Somewhat agree...
 

MickeyW

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I really wish there was video of the shooting. There is no reason to believe one person over the other in this case. The dead guy wasn't some criminal. He was working man with a concealed carry license. Obviously someone who cared enough about the law to do things the right way prior to this.

And no cop is going to admit to a bad shoot if there is no video evidence. Hell, even if there IS video evidence. And of course the girlfriend is going to want to make her boyfriend look good. So, frankly, I don't take either the cop or the girlfriend at their word.

Sucky situation.

Fully agree!
 

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One thing I found interesting is how calm the girlfriend was after the shooting.

The vid that is out does not show the LEO position before the shooting. ( Most of my LEO friends have told me they approach the driver from the driver side. They also stay back towards the passenger door. That way if the person attempts to pull a weapon, they have to twist around to get any chance of hitting them.

Not going to say if this is a good shoot or not at this point. I would want more details.
 

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Oh, I completely disagree. A LEO doesn't have to see a gun to shoot. He has to think his life, or the life of others, is in danger. If a cop shouts, "Let me see your hands! HANDS!!!" with a gun in his hand, and you reach for your waistband, he doesnt have to wait to see what you're going to pull out.

Deaf people should be shot on sight ?

Maybe the same for people listening to loud music with headphones on under their hoodie ?

:roll:
 

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Deaf people should be shot on sight ?

Maybe the same for people listening to loud music with headphones on under their hoodie ?

:roll:

Since that wasnt the circumstance, I'll let you wrestle with that awhile. Dont hurt yourself.
 

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- Straight 'A' H.S. student.

- No criminal convictions, including misdemeanors.

- Worked the same job in the public schools for a decade straight since graduating from H.S.

- Valid CCW holder.

I've got to admit, it doesn't add up.

But I see why so many are video taping all police encounters. Can't blame them at all, and I'm beginning to think we all should - and live streaming, at that.
 

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Oh, I completely disagree. A LEO doesn't have to see a gun to shoot. He has to think his life, or the life of others, is in danger. If a cop shouts, "Let me see your hands! HANDS!!!" with a gun in his hand, and you reach for your waistband, he doesnt have to wait to see what you're going to pull out.

Yes and no. It's true that he doesn't have to see an actual gun, but it takes more than the officers thinking his life is in danger. He needs to have a reasonable belief that someone's life is in danger. "The presence of a gun" by itself is not sufficient
 

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Yes and no. It's true that he doesn't have to see an actual gun, but it takes more than the officers thinking his life is in danger. He needs to have a reasonable belief that someone's life is in danger. "The presence of a gun" by itself is not sufficient

Come on, hair splitters.

If a cop thinks his or someone else's life is in danger, he can act to neutralize the threat. Of COURSE the presence of a gun alone isnt sufficient. But if you know he HAS a gun and doesnt obey a command to show his hands and, instead, starts digging around in his waistband, he can shoot.

Or he can die.

Ya' know everyone forgets this cop had absolutely NO idea who the driver was. He could have been a murderer. People REALLY need to understand they need to listen to cops. ESPECIALLY those with guns drawn.
 

opendebate

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Oh, I completely disagree. A LEO doesn't have to see a gun to shoot. He has to think his life, or the life of others, is in danger. If a cop shouts, "Let me see your hands! HANDS!!!" with a gun in his hand, and you reach for your waistband, he doesnt have to wait to see what you're going to pull out.

The issue here Magg is that the cop is often more inclined to perceive a threat based on race and THAT's a problem. THAT'S where the racism comes into play. That's why you can't use the superficial justification of a perceived threat. You have to look at whether or not the threat was real and not just perceived.
 

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- Straight 'A' H.S. student.

- No criminal convictions, including misdemeanors.

- Worked the same job in the public schools for a decade straight since graduating from H.S.

- Valid CCW holder.

I've got to admit, it doesn't add up.

But I see why so many are video taping all police encounters. Can't blame them at all, and I'm beginning to think we all should - and live streaming, at that.
We can't deposit a check or withdraw money without multiple cameras photographing us behind, side and front, but somehow we don't expect the same surveillance when facing the business end of a police firearm during a traffic stop. That must change. The days of believing the cop's word over the citizen's have ended, for better or worse. As Ronald Reagan would say, "Trust but Verify." Without the verification of video on the cop's uniform, car windshields, and every driver's live streaming smart phone I don't see how law enforcement and citizens will ever regain a sense of trust that I once took for granted (perhaps naively). Cops and citizens both need cameras rolling from every possible angle at the moment a car is pulled over.
 

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We can't deposit a check or withdraw money without multiple cameras photographing us behind, side and front, but somehow we don't expect the same surveillance when facing the business end of a police firearm during a traffic stop. That must change. The days of believing the cop's word over the citizen's have ended, for better or worse. As Ronald Reagan would say, "Trust but Verify." Without the verification of video on the cop's uniform, car windshields, and every driver's live streaming smart phone I don't see how law enforcement and citizens will ever regain a sense of trust that I once took for granted (perhaps naively). Cops and citizens both need cameras rolling from every possible angle at the moment a car is pulled over.
Well, considering police officers are entrusted with the ability to use lethal force, and they are human beings and thereby not infallible, yeah I can't disagree.
 

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The mere presence of a gun does not warrant suspicion let alone reason to believe ones life is in danger.


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Aberration

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Oh, I completely disagree. A LEO doesn't have to see a gun to shoot. He has to think his life, or the life of others, is in danger. If a cop shouts, "Let me see your hands! HANDS!!!" with a gun in his hand, and you reach for your waistband, he doesnt have to wait to see what you're going to pull out.

Not based on the legal standard they are supposed to be held to. In practice that is not the case. IMO that is why we see this social tension towards the police.


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truthatallcost

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I really wish there was video of the shooting. There is no reason to believe one person over the other in this case. The dead guy wasn't some criminal. He was working man with a concealed carry license. Obviously someone who cared enough about the law to do things the right way prior to this.

And no cop is going to admit to a bad shoot if there is no video evidence. Hell, even if there IS video evidence. And of course the girlfriend is going to want to make her boyfriend look good. So, frankly, I don't take either the cop or the girlfriend at their word.

Sucky situation.

I think we need to put body cams on every police officer in the country. It's the only way to settle these disputes. If the Minneapolis officer had been wearing one, the Dallas incident may never have happened.
 

Casper

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I really wish there was video of the shooting. There is no reason to believe one person over the other in this case. The dead guy wasn't some criminal. He was working man with a concealed carry license. Obviously someone who cared enough about the law to do things the right way prior to this.

And no cop is going to admit to a bad shoot if there is no video evidence. Hell, even if there IS video evidence. And of course the girlfriend is going to want to make her boyfriend look good. So, frankly, I don't take either the cop or the girlfriend at their word.

Sucky situation.
I agree. The sooner all LEO's are wearing body cams the better for both the criminals and the cops.
 

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A lawyer for the suburban police officer who fatally shot a black man during a traffic stop said on Saturday that the race of the driver, Philando Castile, played no role in how his client responded, and that the officer “was reacting to the presence of a gun” when he opened fire.

“The shooting had nothing to do with race and everything to do with the presence of that gun,” Mr. Kelly said in an interview, noting that Officer Yanez is Latino.

Mr. Castile “was not following the directions of the police officer,” Mr. Kelly said, but he declined to provide further detail.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/u...o-the-presence-of-a-gun-lawyer-says.html?_r=0

In many states people have carry permits, and licensed people routinely have guns on them during traffic stops. The officer should know how to respond in the situation without freaking out and killing a guy. If cops can't handle state concealed carry laws, then either the cops or the concealed carry laws are completely flawed.
 
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