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Minimum wage means minimum wage

Cephus said:
So what? If the prices raise too much, people will stop going there and the place will go out of business. I don't go to restaurants that forcibly add on a tip. If I don't think the waitperson has earned a tip, I don't leave a tip, and to earn a tip, they have to do more than the minimum, taking an order and bringing food to the table. It takes more than that and I won't give a tip for anyone who hasn't earned a tip, regardless of what they are making pre-tip. That's not my problem, they agreed to work for those wages when they took the job.
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No they agreed to work for those wages PLUS TIPS.
 
Papa bull said:
Of those 3 percent, a lot of them DO move on to better jobs. Someone who stays in that bottom 3 percent.... I can think of a lot of reasons why they stay in minimum wage jobs but none of them are flattering.
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Getting the company standard 25 cent raise doesn't actually solve the underlying issue.
 
Deuce said:
Getting the company standard 25 cent raise doesn't actually solve the underlying issue.
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Moving on to another job more challenging than stocking shelves or flipping burgers does, though.
 
the_recruit said:
Not if everyone's aware that a 15% tip is customary. When you go out to eat and see a burger that the menu lists as $10.00, you just adjust the price in your head to $11.50. It's not difficult and nothing's hidden.
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Yes, but what your not realizing is by tipping, you're just helping the owner cover operating costs.
 
fmw said:
No they agreed to work for those wages PLUS TIPS.
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Then they'd damn well work hard enough to earn the tips.
 
KevinKohler said:
Yes, but what your not realizing is by tipping, you're just helping the owner cover operating costs.
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Any money paid to the establishment is used to cover costs and that includes compensating employees, yes. How am I not realizing this and how is this relevant?
 
the_recruit said:
Any money paid to the establishment is used to cover costs and that includes compensating employees, yes. How am I not realizing this and how is this relevant?
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You're bipassing the employers responsibility to pay their employees.

It's just a way to get free, or close to free, labor. You are tipping your server for good service. But the server will also be called upon from time to time to bus tables, they have to clean the FOH, roll silverware, etc.

It's just away to avoid some of the operational costs of running a restaurant.
 
KevinKohler said:
You're bipassing the employers responsibility to pay their employees.

It's just a way to get free, or close to free, labor. You are tipping your server for good service. But the server will also be called upon from time to time to bus tables, they have to clean the FOH, roll silverware, etc.

It's just away to avoid some of the operational costs of running a restaurant.
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And what's the problem with any of that?
 
KevinKohler said:
You're bipassing the employers responsibility to pay their employees.

It's just a way to get free, or close to free, labor. You are tipping your server for good service. But the server will also be called upon from time to time to bus tables, they have to clean the FOH, roll silverware, etc.

It's just away to avoid some of the operational costs of running a restaurant.
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No. It is not free or close to free labor. The labor costs (wages+tips) are paid for by the restaurant's revenue stream (customers' money). The fact that the tip goes directly from the customer to the employee and happens to bypass the restaurant's cash register is irrelevant. You can even look it at that way if you'd like. Just pretend the tip money is being put into the cash register and then later it is being distributed to the waitstaff in their paychecks.

While it is technically correct to say that the tipping system reduces the restaurant's costs, it only does so by reducing the restaurant's revenue by the same exact amount. So no difference.
 
KevinKohler said:
You're bipassing the employers responsibility to pay their employees.

It's just a way to get free, or close to free, labor. You are tipping your server for good service. But the server will also be called upon from time to time to bus tables, they have to clean the FOH, roll silverware, etc.

It's just away to avoid some of the operational costs of running a restaurant.
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Why do you think so many companies LOVE food stamps and other assistance programs? It allows them to pay less. Want wages to go up naturally, get rid of the over abundance of 'welfare' that is simply abused and wasted money.
 
Arbo said:
Why do you think so many companies LOVE food stamps and other assistance programs? It allows them to pay less. Want wages to go up naturally, get rid of the over abundance of 'welfare' that is simply abused and wasted money.
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EXACTLY!

I absolutely hate it when I have to agree with you.
 
Arbo said:
It's ok, I know when you grow up you wanna be just like me. ;)
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I actually was a lot like you, until I picked up a book on economics.
 
imagep said:
I actually bought it for you as your Christmas present. I couldn't think of anything that you needed more.
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Hopefully it's not one I've read previously. Thank you...
 
imagep said:
Thats not likely. this one doesn't have any cartoons characters in it.
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Damn, in my day we referred to those as charts and graphs, but in all seriousness, your ideas appear too closely related to the minimum income theories espoused by the MMT crowd for me...
 
Arbo said:
Why do you think so many companies LOVE food stamps and other assistance programs? It allows them to pay less. Want wages to go up naturally, get rid of the over abundance of 'welfare' that is simply abused and wasted money.
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So if you looked at prevailing wages prior to the progressive era you would find they were higher then? I somehow doubt you would find such a correlation. Prior to the various safety-net type federal programs we have today, sweatshops and child labor were quite common.

Intuitively what you are asserting makes sense, but history has shown time and time again that is not what happens. Those at the lower end of the income ladder are quite easily exploited by their employers regardless of what social programs are in place. Before Medicaid, you didn't have people handing out easily affordable healthcare, but rather if you could not afford it, you died of an otherwise treatable condition. Before Welfare, you didn't have people making more money, you just had them being exploited further due to their desperate conditions. You could do away with every social program out there and Walmart would not increase their wages one cent for their hourly employees. In fact they might cut them because it would either be work for them or starve. I could see them arguing that if they increased wages they would have to increase the costs for food and goods and without food stamps people would not be able to afford them then.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
So if you looked at prevailing wages prior to the progressive era you would find they were higher then? I somehow doubt you would find such a correlation. Prior to the various safety-net type federal programs we have today, sweatshops and child labor were quite common.
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And laws which make such practices illegal are now on the books. Times change.
 
Arbo said:
And laws which make such practices illegal are now on the books. Times change.
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Yes, sweatshops and child labor are illegal, but my point is the absence of social programs will not all of a sudden give low wage employees more bargaining power with their employers. The point was, when those social programs did not exist, it was a race to the bottom in terms of low skilled employee wages.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Yes, sweatshops and child labor are illegal, but my point is the absence of social programs will not all of a sudden give low wage employees more bargaining power with their employers. The point was, when those social programs did not exist, it was a race to the bottom in terms of low skilled employee wages.
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The only way any employee gains bargaining power is by producing at a level that is above the prevailing market...
 
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