Michael Moore - liberator or slanderer

[SixStringHero]

I feel sorry for the people who actually take Moore's "documentary" as gospel. It has been proven by many sources that Moore's film is rife with inaccuracies, false-hoods, deceits and flat-out lies. Worse yet, Moore never uses much facts in the first place. He relys on conjecture and speculation to prove most of his points. Still with that said, it doesn't change the fact that there are some 59 odd lies and deceits in his movie.

Ludahai, of all things to bring up about Moore the Panatagraph is small apples compared to the rest of his duplicity. You should of brought up the Unocal oil pipeline. Moore claims that Bush and co. had plans to build and oil pipe-line thorough Afghanistan, but the reality of it was this plan was abandoned during Clinton's administration. Of course, you won't hear that omited detail from Moore.

There's another clip where Bush is giving a speech. Moore clearly implicates that this gathering taking place is rich coporate execs. Bush then says something to the effect (not verbatim) "Some people call you the 'haves,' I like to call you my BASE." What Moore doesn't tell us is that this is a fundraiser for a Children's Hospital and when the camera pulls out further, Al Gore is sitting right next to him. Of course that latter part isn't in Moore's film, that's actually a counter-point in the film F HYPE 9/11.

If you people want to really believe that this "documentary" was full of valid facts and empirical evidence then you really aren't that interested in the truth and only want to have your beliefs that much more gounded in this fantasy world that doesn't exist.

Watch F HYPE 9/11. I did both. I watched F 9/11 and F HYPE 9/11 in the same week. After watching F HYPE and doing more research it is beyond a reasonable doubt that Moore is full of ****.

Go here. It's quite a lenghty read, but if you can read all this and still believe everything that Moore says to be the truth then I guess ignorance is bliss.

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

I'm sure some will say this is all biased so it has no credibility, but that's just the cowards way out. Even if something is biased that doesn't change the facts, and no one, other than Moore, is stupid enough to try to get away with it again.

 

[Middleground]

How about proving Koppel is a crackpot before making a sweeping generalization of what he wrote. What, YOU can accuse people of being a crackpot with no evidence, but we have to prove point by point Moore is a liar? Sorry, works both ways my friend!

Hey, no need to apoligize. And thanks for the opportunity to back up my statements.

First off, It's obvious that the guy has an agenda. Advertized on the front page of his site:

Michael Moore is a Big Fat Stupid White Man, by David Hardy & Jason Clarke. The new paperback edition contains a chapter by Kopel, an abbreviated examination of Michael Moore's deceits in "Fahrenheit 9/11."

Also, look at his credentials. It can't get any better than guns and the Virgin Mary, LOL! You must go to the site that he designed himself. He calls himself a website designer... too funny:


Organizations

Research Director of the Independence Institute

Associate Policy Analyst, Cato Institute.

Columnist, Rocky Mountain News/Denver Post.

Editor-in-Chief, Journal on Firearms & Public Policy.

Peer Reviewer, Criminal Justice Policy Review.

Contributing Editor, Information Technology & Telecom News (Heartland Institute)

Contributing Editor, Liberty magazine.

Contributing Editor, Gun Week

Contributing Legal Editor, The Firearms & Outdoor Trade.

Adjunct Professor of Law, New York University, 1998-99. Course syllabus.

Board of Directors, Colorado Union of Taxpayers.

Website designer, MaryLinks. ( http://www.marylinks.org/ )


Secondly, he wrote this:
In Fahrenheit 9/11, Moore claims to support our troops. But in fact, he supports the enemy in Iraq—the coalition of Saddam loyalists, al Qaeda operatives, and terrorists controlled by Iran or Syria—who are united in their desire to murder Iraqis, and to destroy any possibility of democracy in Iraq. Here is what Moore says about the forces who are killing Americans and trying to impose totalitarian rule on Iraq:

The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not "insurgents" or "terrorists" or "The Enemy." They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win.


That is all I need to read. Besides, the web site is amateurish and difficult to read. I feel like I would be wasting my time going through his basesless points. That said, you're more than welcome to dig out a few of his points if you feel so strongly about them. I would be more than happy to debate. Who knows, you might find a gem!

 

[Middleground]

Go here. It's quite a lenghty read, but if you can read all this and still believe everything that Moore says to be the truth then I guess ignorance is bliss.

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

I'm sure some will say this is all biased so it has no credibility, but that's just the cowards way out. Even if something is biased that doesn't change the facts, and no one, other than Moore, is stupid enough to try to get away with it again.

Jeepers creepers, is Dave Kopel all ya got?

It's not the coward's way out. I've explained in full why I think the guy is a crackpot. Pull out some of his "facts," and I'd be moore ('scuse the pun) than happy to debate.

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

You are going to need to read the top of the e-mail page again...

Sometimes Moore's fan are derided as "Moore-ons" for their uncritical, and nearly hysterical devotion to their hero. Some of the letter-writers do fit this category--but many do not.

The e-mail you posted is one of the ones that fit this catagory....I like how you had to go down to the 9th letter on the page to pick it out...

I noticed how you didn't say ONE WORD about any of the deceits found...The ones that have sources provided for every one of them....

Insults will not help your argument. They only make you look less intelligent.

 

[cnredd]

Insults will not help your argument. They only make you look less intelligent.

Do you have any intention of fully reading the page that you yourself used as a source?

The "Moore-on" sentence is taken verbatim from that page...I didn't insult anyone...If you find the term "Moore-on" insulting, I suggest you write an e-mail to the author of the page; not me.

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

I believe it because it's true. Poorer people might be more inclined to join the army but it doesn't make them targeted. Thats like saying that because you need water the tap is "targetting" you. Oh and by the way the link you keep posting doesn't link to the actual articles you're citing..it links to a lefty blog site with links to the articles which don't work! Haha

just clik the hypertext. it works for me.

recruiters have quotas they must meet. so where do they turn, when they need a boost hit their goals? they go to poorville. if that's no targeting, then I don't know what is.

As for that tap-water analogy, it just doesn't work. You can not compare something that your body requires, an unethical social behavior.

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

Do you have any intention of fully reading the page that you yourself used as a source?

The "Moore-on" sentence is taken verbatim from that page...I didn't insult anyone...If you find the term "Moore-on" insulting, I suggest you write an e-mail to the author of the page; not me.

For your information, I did read it.

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

I feel sorry for the people who actually take Moore's "documentary" as gospel. It has been proven by many sources that Moore's film is rife with inaccuracies, false-hoods, deceits and flat-out lies. Worse yet, Moore never uses much facts in the first place. He relys on conjecture and speculation to prove most of his points. Still with that said, it doesn't change the fact that there are some 59 odd lies and deceits in his movie.

Ludahai, of all things to bring up about Moore the Panatagraph is small apples compared to the rest of his duplicity. You should of brought up the Unocal oil pipeline. Moore claims that Bush and co. had plans to build and oil pipe-line thorough Afghanistan, but the reality of it was this plan was abandoned during Clinton's administration. Of course, you won't hear that omited detail from Moore.

There's another clip where Bush is giving a speech. Moore clearly implicates that this gathering taking place is rich coporate execs. Bush then says something to the effect (not verbatim) "Some people call you the 'haves,' I like to call you my BASE." What Moore doesn't tell us is that this is a fundraiser for a Children's Hospital and when the camera pulls out further, Al Gore is sitting right next to him. Of course that latter part isn't in Moore's film, that's actually a counter-point in the film F HYPE 9/11.

If you people want to really believe that this "documentary" was full of valid facts and empirical evidence then you really aren't that interested in the truth and only want to have your beliefs that much more gounded in this fantasy world that doesn't exist.

Watch F HYPE 9/11. I did both. I watched F 9/11 and F HYPE 9/11 in the same week. After watching F HYPE and doing more research it is beyond a reasonable doubt that Moore is full of ****.

Go here. It's quite a lenghty read, but if you can read all this and still believe everything that Moore says to be the truth then I guess ignorance is bliss.

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

I'm sure some will say this is all biased so it has no credibility, but that's just the cowards way out. Even if something is biased that doesn't change the facts, and no one, other than Moore, is stupid enough to try to get away with it again.

Let me tell you why Michael Moore is a hero. He get's people talking. If you want to obsess over the bias of the movie, then by all means, go ahead and spin your wheels. But the fact is, this movie was a great success. Even if the whole documentary was a lie, his point was still made. And that is americans are asleep at the wheel. So to shake things up, and to get us to step outside of our bubble's he produced an artfully crafted piece of political propaganda. Was everthing he said true? No. Was everything he said false? No. But, we are talking about it. Debating it. Thinking about it. So, in the end he wins. He stirred the people to think, and to question their political realities. That's why Michael Moore is a hero. And I'll say it again, just to annoy the hell out of you. Michael Moore is hero, more than you could ever hope to be.

 

[SixStringHero]

Jeepers creepers, is Dave Kopel all ya got?

It's not the coward's way out. I've explained in full why I think the guy is a crackpot. Pull out some of his "facts," and I'd be moore ('scuse the pun) than happy to debate.

I compel you to watch F HYPE 9/11 (which I'm assuming you haven't seen yet) I'm not much for playing internet detective, but I'm sure I could dig up more if you want. Dave Kopel's site is one of the more comprehensive ones out there. Look into the site tha GYT posted a link to as well. That gives some good information.

And just for the record I'm not a republican, conservative, democrat or liberal. I just want the truth and I don't appreciate being lied to in a "documentary" which is rife with fallacies.

 

[SixStringHero]

Let me tell you why Michael Moore is a hero. He get's people talking. If you want to obsess over the bias of the movie, then by all means, go ahead and spin your wheels. But the fact is, this movie was a great success. Even if the whole documentary was a lie, his point was still made. And that is americans are asleep at the wheel. So to shake things up, and to get us to step outside of our bubble's he produced an artfully crafted piece of political propaganda. Was everthing he said true? No. Was everything he said false? No. But, we are talking about it. Debating it. Thinking about it. So, in the end he wins. He stirred the people to think, and to question their political realities. That's why Michael Moore is a hero. And I'll say it again, just to annoy the hell out of you. Michael Moore is hero, more than you could ever hope to be.

You just admitted yourself then that Moore did in fact lie. A few pages ago you made the assertion that people just didn't want to accept the truth of his film. You probably assume I'm a conservative because I have take issue with Moore. I'm not. I'm not a fan of republicans, democrats, liberals, conservatives, Greens and what have you. I take issue with all parties ideologies, and at the same time each party has it's good points as well but I align myself with none of them.

Moore is not a hero. If even half of his documentary ended up being factual then I would be singing his praises for exposing this adminstration of their corrpution. He mentions Haliburton but never mentions Clinton gave no bid contracts to them back in the Balkans. He mentions the Karlye Group but neglects to name any prominent democrats that are also affiliated with the group. I hate to break it to you, but democrats are rolling in the money just as much as republicans are.

I use to repsect Moore, especially after I watched Colombine. Now, I'm not in favor of gun-control ie (banning fire-arms) but he raised some valid points. It wasn't until after I watched F 9/11 that I learned of his cut and paste hatchet job sytle. There are even sites out there that expose Colombine of the same tricks. That being said, Colombine came off as a more intelligent, thought provoking, objective and articulate film than the aforementioned F 9/11 where Moore comes off like a condescending ass.

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

You just admitted yourself then that Moore did in fact lie. A few pages ago you made the assertion that people just didn't want to accept the truth of his film. You probably assume I'm a conservative because I have take issue with Moore. I'm not. I'm not a fan of republicans, democrats, liberals, conservatives, Greens and what have you. I take issue with all parties ideologies, and at the same time each party has it's good points as well but I align myself with none of them.

Moore is not a hero. If even half of his documentary ended up being factual then I would be singing his praises for exposing this adminstration of their corrpution. He mentions Haliburton but never mentions Clinton gave no bid contracts to them back in the Balkans. He mentions the Karlye Group but neglects to name any prominent democrats that are also affiliated with the group. I hate to break it to you, but democrats are rolling in the money just as much as republicans are.

I use to repsect Moore, especially after I watched Colombine. Now, I'm not in favor of gun-control ie (banning fire-arms) but he raised some valid points. It wasn't until after I watched F 9/11 that I learned of his cut and paste hatchet job sytle. There are even sites out there that expose Colombine of the same tricks. That being said, Colombine came off as a more intelligent, thought provoking, objective and articulate film than the aforementioned F 9/11 where Moore comes off like a condescending ass.

Look, I said the truths or untruths within the film are debatable. Few are explicitly either, or. But, here we are discussing them. And that's really the underlying point of the film.

You need to keep in mind what all students of documentary know. And that is all documentary is propaganda.

No, neither am I, a democrat a republican, or a (fill in the blank)_______. But, I think that GWB is a rotten president. He has done nothing to improve our nation, in fact everything he has done has been just the opposite. He is a criminal. And he deserves much more than documentary criticism. He needs to be put on trial for sending 1000's of americans to their untimely deaths (not to mention afghanis, and iraqis). There is no need for us to be meddling abroad. It only serves the purpose of greed. And all who sit comfortably with this, are seriously out of touch.

 

[Middleground]

I compel you to watch F HYPE 9/11 (which I'm assuming you haven't seen yet) I'm not much for playing internet detective, but I'm sure I could dig up more if you want. Dave Kopel's site is one of the more comprehensive ones out there. Look into the site tha GYT posted a link to as well. That gives some good information.

And just for the record I'm not a republican, conservative, democrat or liberal. I just want the truth and I don't appreciate being lied to in a "documentary" which is rife with fallacies.

Thanks for the info, I will give F Hype 9/11 a try. Don't know when I'll get the chance to see it, though, but I will next time I rent.

As for Kopel's being the most comprehensive, well, I think it may be because it's a bunch of crap spewed by someone with an agenda. Though I admit that I didn't read it all, I didn't need to. You seem familiar with the site, so maybe you can point out some "smoking guns" that were oblivious to me.

As for your political stance, to be frank, it does not mean much to me. In fact, I think putting labels on issues is a big mistake and not necessary. One of these days I will get around to starting a thread about that. As for myself, I try to look at each issue with an an open, unjaded mind. Sometimes it's a difficult thing to do, but it's the only way to get at the truth, I think.

 

[cnredd]

As for Kopel's being the most comprehensive, well, I think it may be because it's a bunch of crap spewed by someone with an agenda. Though I admit that I didn't read it all, I didn't need to. You seem familiar with the site, so maybe you can point out some "smoking guns" that were oblivious to me.

Fahrenheit shows Condoleezza Rice saying, "Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11." The audience laughs derisively.

Here is what Rice really said on the CBS Early Show, Nov. 28, 2003:

Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It’s not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York. This is a great terrorist, international terrorist network that is determined to defeat freedom. It has perverted Islam from a peaceful religion into one in which they call on it for violence. And they're all linked. And Iraq is a central front because, if and when, and we will, we change the nature of Iraq to a place that is peaceful and democratic and prosperous in the heart of the Middle East, you will begin to change the Middle East....

Moore deceptively cut the Rice quote to fool the audience into thinking she was making a particular claim, even though she was pointedly not making such a claim. And since Rice spoke in November 2003, her quote had nothing to do with building up American fears before the March 2003 invasion, although Moore implies otherwise.

[Moore response: None.]

--------------------------------------------------------------

Imagine if you saw ONE video of a lion watching a gazelle walk by and the announcer says, "As you can see, the lion and gazelle live in perfect harmony...The lion will never attack a gazelle..."

To someone who has never heard of either animal, that ONE video would sound like proof that the announcer was correct. Of course 99% of the general public knows differently, and could spot the misleading quotation.

Thats how Moore works...He doesn't WANT the informed person to watch his movies...he wants the ones new to politics, especially the college kids, so he can mold them into his way of thinking. The last thing on earth Moore wants is for people to think for themselves.

His way of thinking is, "If 100 people see this movie, and 20 believe it without question, then there is 20 more votes against Bush, therefore helping the overall cause"..It now seems that he didn't expect another 60 to question his statements and motives...and when they found out the truth, they were actually put off by Moore's tactics and went the other way.

That is why some people on the Liberal side believe that Moore actually HURT their cause more than it helped.

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

just clik the hypertext. it works for me.

recruiters have quotas they must meet. so where do they turn, when they need a boost hit their goals? they go to poorville. if that's no targeting, then I don't know what is.

As for that tap-water analogy, it just doesn't work. You can not compare something that your body requires, an unethical social behavior.

Acctually it does. You could just as easily have gone to a friends to get a drink, sucked on some ice, or bought some bottled water. Just as poorer people could get student loans, or work at a resteraunt, or do any number of things. The point is choice. They choose on their own whether or not they want to join the forces. They're not a targeted group. There's no plot in the military to get people in the slums to join. Poor people join the military because they might think it a good thing. The military doesn't sign their contracts. There no more recruiters at poor public schools than at rich public schools. Recruiters do not go more often to either of them..they're assigned to go on the same day for about a week to both schools.

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

Acctually it does. You could just as easily have gone to a friends to get a drink, sucked on some ice, or bought some bottled water. Just as poorer people could get student loans, or work at a resteraunt, or do any number of things. The point is choice. They choose on their own whether or not they want to join the forces. They're not a targeted group. There's no plot in the military to get people in the slums to join. Poor people join the military because they might think it a good thing. The military doesn't sign their contracts. There no more recruiters at poor public schools than at rich public schools. Recruiters do not go more often to either of them..they're assigned to go on the same day for about a week to both schools.

No, the poor do these things because because they are desperate. If you had a choice to be live a life of immorality on the street, or to have all of your needs taken care of, yet to do this, it meant you may possibly be asked to give your life, what would you do? What choice is it, if you have no other options? And that is a load of BS to say that recruiters do not prey on those kinds of people, because they do. The military is primarily composed of the working class, and the poverty stricken. They are only one's willing to give up their lives for benefits the wealthy do not need. Socially, and psychologically, it makes perfect sense. Who else would do such a thing? And who else would take advantage of such a situation?

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

No, the poor do these things because because they are desperate. If you had a choice to be live a life of immorality on the street, or to have all of your needs taken care of, yet to do this, it meant you may possibly be asked to give your life, what would you do? What choice is it, if you have no other options? And that is a load of BS to say that recruiters do not prey on those kinds of people, because they do. The military is primarily composed of the working class, and the poverty stricken. They are only one's willing to give up their lives for benefits the wealthy do not need. Socially, and psychologically, it makes perfect sense. Who else would do such a thing? And who else would take advantage of such a situation?

As I said, the military doesn't sign the contracts And no, those aren't the only two choices for poor people. I named just a few. There are MANY other options. Are you sudgesting that somehow military recruiters make it so that poor people can't think for themselves? Its not a load of BS. Go to a recruitment center and ask what days they are assigned to go out and where. I'll guarentee you it's every public school rich and poor school. Equall time at each. Why don't you provide sources and evidence of this and please nothing from a blog site and something more meaty than "oh well more poor people join so the military must be brainwashing them"

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

As I said, the military doesn't sign the contracts And no, those aren't the only two choices for poor people. I named just a few. There are MANY other options. Are you sudgesting that somehow military recruiters make it so that poor people can't think for themselves? Its not a load of BS. Go to a recruitment center and ask what days they are assigned to go out and where. I'll guarentee you it's every public school rich and poor school. Equall time at each. Why don't you provide sources and evidence of this and please nothing from a blog site and something more meaty than "oh well more poor people join so the military must be brainwashing them"

I am merely saying that poverty begets desperation. And that recruiters thrive on the impoverished by waving a carrot in front of their faces. It's a fact that the military is primarily made up of the working class. And If what you guarentee is true, then yes, the poor are going to be the primary targets, because there are many more poor schools than rich. Obviously, I do not need a source to back me up on that.

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

I am merely saying that poverty begets desperation. And that recruiters thrive on the impoverished by waving a carrot in front of their faces. It's a fact that the military is primarily made up of the working class. And If what you guarentee is true, then yes, the poor are going to be the primary targets, because there are many more poor schools than rich. Obviously, I do not need a source to back me up on that.

Is it more likely that poor people will join? Yes. But the recruiters spout the same propoganda everywhere. You said it yourself...it's not targeting it's desperation on the part of the recruitees.

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

Is it more likely that poor people will join? Yes. But the recruiters spout the same propoganda everywhere. You said it yourself...it's not targeting it's desperation on the part of the recruitees.

And you condone this?

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

And you condone this?

They can spout all the propaganda they want as far as I'm concerned and if you're too stupid to read the contract before you sign it then you deserve to be taken advantage of.

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

They can spout all the propaganda they want as far as I'm concerned and if you're too stupid to read the contract before you sign it then you deserve to be taken advantage of.

That attitude is why we allow Bush to murder our own citizens in the name of profit. I am ashamed to be the one to let you know. I hope you don't really mean what you say.

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

That attitude is why we allow Bush to murder our own citizens in the name of profit. I am ashamed to be the one to let you know. I hope you don't really mean what you say.

I do mean what I say. If you're too stupid to read a contract basically pertaining to your life and what you'll be doing with it for the next few years then you deserve to be taken advantage of. You don't go to a car dealer or a bank and sign a contract without reading it first let alone a contract pertaining to YOUR LIFE. If you're too much of an imbecil to sign without reading then you have no position to whine about not knowing what you were getting into.

 

[ban.the.electoral.college]

I do mean what I say. If you're too stupid to read a contract basically pertaining to your life and what you'll be doing with it for the next few years then you deserve to be taken advantage of. You don't go to a car dealer or a bank and sign a contract without reading it first let alone a contract pertaining to YOUR LIFE. If you're too much of an imbecil to sign without reading then you have no position to whine about not knowing what you were getting into.

Rudely, stated. However, you are entitled to that. Brings a certain quote I read recently to mind, "No man is completely worthless. He can always serve as a bad example".

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

Rudely, stated. However, you are entitled to that. Brings a certain quote I read recently to mind, "No man is completely worthless. He can always serve as a bad example".

:lol: You must agree with me that especially on this site without doing research before posting your opinion you're in for a big suprise. Same follows with the army. If you dont do your research and read the contract..you lack common sense or you're just plain stupid.

 

[MSgt]

Having never served as a Recruiter, I can only speak briefly on the subject, but since this involves Marine Corps Recruiters I feel compelled to share what I know.

Recruiters will spend every moment possible to fill their quotas. If quotas are not met, careers are destroyed. They are assigned areas of responsibility, but have complete freedom to go where they please within that sector. That being said, they visit every place where recruits are possible. They will visit schools of any social status and visit any gathering of peoples, because recruits come from all over. They are forbidden to lie, but human nature will dictate for each possible quota how far they will push that line - after all, it is their careers at stake. There is a sense of responsibility on the potential recruit as well. Individuals should know that joining the military might mean actually doing something along the lines of what militaries do. Despite missing a couple monthly quotas this year (unheard of for the Marine Corps), the Marine Corps remains strong for annual numbers.

While they are not the target, the poor have always been the strongest defender of America. There is a reason politicians do not have sons in the military. Money and opportunity. The rich offer more opportunities for their youth, while the poor see the military as a means to college. If a wealthy youth has aspirations of the political arena, he will generally serve in a more "comfortable" branch. Many of the more wealthy in our society simply have no time for the sort of “inferior” human being who is “foolish” enough to join our military.

Recruiters know this, because of what history proves, but they always keep all doors open.