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Michael Moore - liberator or slanderer

Is Michael Moore a Hero or a Hypocrite?

  • Noble Hero

    Votes: 31 30.4%
  • Malicious Traitor

    Votes: 16 15.7%
  • Greedy Self-Serving Hypocrite

    Votes: 55 53.9%

  • Total voters
    102
Middleground said:
If not, I challenge you to pull an important "F 9/11 deceit" from that site and put it up for debate. Better make sure it'll stick, eh.

I already did earlier in the thread, the Pantagraph newspaper clipping was altered. Moore took a letter to the editor and altered it to look like a Pantagraph headline. He even changed the date. Billo wouldn't touch it. I suggest you read through the thread, find it, and respond!
 
Middleground said:
I want a point-by-point debate that's not written by a crack pot. If you want to debate certain points about the film, then I'd gladly participate. If you say that Michael Moore is a big fat liar, then prove it with some concrete evidence.
How about proving Koppel is a crackpot before making a sweeping generalization of what he wrote. What, YOU can accuse people of being a crackpot with no evidence, but we have to prove point by point Moore is a liar? Sorry, works both ways my friend!
 
When his movie came out there was and article at the sight factcheck.org, a non biased site that said there were 59 lies in his movie...........
 
Middleground said:
I want a point-by-point debate that's not written by a crack pot. If you want to debate certain points about the film, then I'd gladly participate. If you say that Michael Moore is a big fat liar, then prove it with some concrete evidence.

Posted earlier...keep up with the program...

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fift...enheit-911.htm
 
Navy Pride said:
When his movie came out there was and article at the sight factcheck.org, a non biased site that said there were 59 lies in his movie........... 2nd quote: "More than peppered, but this is the point I was making. Watching a film on abortion that was produced by Christian Coalition "slants" would be equally full of inuendos and manipulations.

The credibility is lost when the artist" works a propagandas agenda."

I hate to have to be the one to tell you two. But, all documentary is propaganda. And EVERYONE is biased. Anyone who thinks they're not or who says they are not, are big fat liers.

With that said, even if you could prove that everything in the movie was a lie, which you can't, the movie would still be a notable success. Why, you wonder? I'll tell you. Because, It's got every liberal and conservative talking about it. This is exactly what he wanted. And by you engaging in this debate, whether you enjoy it or not, you are directly contributing to exactly what Moore, intended. Ha, ha! I bet you never thought about that! Well, it's fine with me, because I'm more than happy to debate the movie until the end of time. The truth is, MM has inspired more people to sit up and take notice of politics than anyone in the past decade. He's a success. And right-wingers are just so GREEN with envy. I feel for you, I really do. Sorry, we've got to be so damn clever.
 
"Hmmm... I don't remember this part. I remember two recruiters going through a mall and trying to get some youngins' to enlist. I believe that Moore said it was in the poorest part of town. In fact, they did not even bother going to the more posh shopping center. Did Moore lie about this?"

No, but he convieniently left out the fact that recruiters are EVERYWHERE.. not just the poor parts of cities and towns. Recruiters are assigned locations, they don't go wandering outside of the area they're assigned to because there are other recruiters in other parts of town. They're in poor school districts and rich school districts.
 
Originally posted by ludahai:
I already did earlier in the thread, the Pantagraph newspaper clipping was altered. Moore took a letter to the editor and altered it to look like a Pantagraph headline. He even changed the date. Billo wouldn't touch it. I suggest you read through the thread, find it, and respond!
Your not as clear as you could be regarding why I would not comment. Like I told you, I haven't researched this yet. When I do, you can be sure I will say something one way or another.
 
cnredd said:

Yeah, I'm reading Kopels site, and It's REALLY funny, because he posted all these emails that he recieved that bash his own article...

http://www.davekopel.org/terror/Moore-Fans.htm

For example:

"Nice try, Dave. Nothing worse than an ambiguous writer.
The only real lie in Michael Moore's movie is George W. Bush.
From lying about weapons of mass destruction to keeping our country on edge with false reports of possible terrorist activities in this country, he will go down in history as one of the least intelligent, most manipulative self-centered presidents we have ever seen......he is truly evil."
 
Billo_Really said:
Your not as clear as you could be regarding why I would not comment. Like I told you, I haven't researched this yet. When I do, you can be sure I will say something one way or another.

We're still waiting....... and waiting...... and waiting.....
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
"Hmmm... I don't remember this part. I remember two recruiters going through a mall and trying to get some youngins' to enlist. I believe that Moore said it was in the poorest part of town. In fact, they did not even bother going to the more posh shopping center. Did Moore lie about this?"

No, but he convieniently left out the fact that recruiters are EVERYWHERE.. not just the poor parts of cities and towns. Recruiters are assigned locations, they don't go wandering outside of the area they're assigned to because there are other recruiters in other parts of town. They're in poor school districts and rich school districts.

Hmmm.... maybe since you were not paying attention you missed the point.

The point, was that recruiters concentrate on the poor areas of town, because that's where they get the most recruits.

Think about it. Who's more likely to sign up for the possibility of being sent to their own death: a) trust fund baby, or b) a poorly educated fool who can't get a job
 
ban.the.electoral.college said:
Hmmm.... maybe since you were not paying attention you missed the point.

The point, was that recruiters concentrate on the poor areas of town, because that's where they get the most recruits.

Think about it. Who's more likely to sign up for the possibility of being sent to their own death: a) trust fund baby, or b) a poorly educated fool who can't get a job

No you missed the point. ITS NOT TRUE. There are recruiters EVERYWHERE. They're in rich schools and they're in private schools. They dont concentrate on any area. I went to a very rich highschool and there were recruiters there all the time. Almost every week.
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
No you missed the point. ITS NOT TRUE. There are recruiters EVERYWHERE. They're in rich schools and they're in private schools. They dont concentrate on any area. I went to a very rich highschool and there were recruiters there all the time. Almost every week.

Actually, you missed the point AGAIN. Allow me to reiterate. Military recruiters concentrate on the poor, because statistically poor people are much more likely to sign up.

Just so you know, I attended both public school, and private. Recruiters did visit the public school. Never did they vist my private school. Keep reading:

"Rich white folks like those who attend South Tampas Plant High School, as well as private school students, wont be fodder unless they go out of their way to enlist. Recruiters are simply banned from most private schools, and they don't spend any time at public schools with wealthy students, simply because it's more difficult to pull the wool over the eyes of a recruit whose future prospects are better than bleak."

That's a quote from an article. Please read it. Here is the link:

http://blogwood.com/archived/792/re...oo-blood-sucking-maggots-preying-on-the-poor/
 
They do spend plenty of time at rich public schools..I went to one..they were there ALOT. And they're at my university. You can't say that they target a certain group just because of their presence. Why? Because recruiters are anywhere and everywhere they can set foot. Just because more underpriveleged people sign up doesn't mean they're a "targeted" group.
 
Napoleon's Nightingale said:
They do spend plenty of time at rich public schools..I went to one..they were there ALOT. And they're at my university. You can't say that they target a certain group just because of their presence. Why? Because recruiters are anywhere and everywhere they can set foot. Just because more underpriveleged people sign up doesn't mean they're a "targeted" group.

Yeah too bad that link you gave me doesn't work and too bad that website is a loony left blog..hardly reliable :lol:
 
They do spend plenty of time at rich public schools..I went to one..they were there ALOT. And they're at my university. You can't say that they target a certain group just because of their presence. Why? Because recruiters are anywhere and everywhere they can set foot. Just because more underpriveleged people sign up doesn't mean they're a "targeted" group.Napoleon's Nightingale said:
Yeah too bad that link you gave me doesn't work and too bad that website is a loony left blog..hardly reliable :lol:

That's hilarious, you replied to yourself! LMFAO

I am not debating wether or not recruiters were at your so called "rich" public highschool. Surely they were, otherwise you wouldn't be ranting like a lunatic. And feel free to bask in denial and ignorance if you like. But, recruiters do target the poorer areas.

Why are poverty stricken communities targeted? Because, they are easy targets, of course! Why are they easy targets? Because they are dying (pun intended) to get the hell out of poverty!

cut and paste the link into your browser. It's live.

http://blogwood.com/archived/792/re...oo-blood-sucking-maggots-preying-on-the-poor/
 
ban.the.electoral.college said:
That's hilarious, you replied to yourself! LMFAO

I am not debating wether or not recruiters were at your so called "rich" public highschool. Surely they were, otherwise you wouldn't be ranting like a lunatic. And feel free to bask in denial and ignorance if you like. But, recruiters do target the poorer areas.

Why are poverty stricken communities targeted? Because, they are easy targets, of course! Why are they easy targets? Because they are dying (pun intended) to get the hell out of poverty!

cut and paste the link into your browser. It's live.

http://blogwood.com/archived/792/re...oo-blood-sucking-maggots-preying-on-the-poor/

I believe it because it's true. Poorer people might be more inclined to join the army but it doesn't make them targeted. Thats like saying that because you need water the tap is "targetting" you. Oh and by the way the link you keep posting doesn't link to the actual articles you're citing..it links to a lefty blog site with links to the articles which don't work! Haha
 
ban.the.electoral.college said:
Yeah, I'm reading Kopels site, and It's REALLY funny, because he posted all these emails that he recieved that bash his own article...

http://www.davekopel.org/terror/Moore-Fans.htm

For example:

"Nice try, Dave. Nothing worse than an ambiguous writer.
The only real lie in Michael Moore's movie is George W. Bush.
From lying about weapons of mass destruction to keeping our country on edge with false reports of possible terrorist activities in this country, he will go down in history as one of the least intelligent, most manipulative self-centered presidents we have ever seen......he is truly evil."

You are going to need to read the top of the e-mail page again...

Sometimes Moore's fan are derided as "Moore-ons" for their uncritical, and nearly hysterical devotion to their hero. Some of the letter-writers do fit this category--but many do not.

The e-mail you posted is one of the ones that fit this catagory....I like how you had to go down to the 9th letter on the page to pick it out...

I noticed how you didn't say ONE WORD about any of the deceits found...The ones that have sources provided for every one of them....
 
ludahai said:
I already did earlier in the thread, the Pantagraph newspaper clipping was altered. Moore took a letter to the editor and altered it to look like a Pantagraph headline. He even changed the date. Billo wouldn't touch it. I suggest you read through the thread, find it, and respond!

You bet.

I say, big deal. It appears for one millisecond in the film.

I found this interesting article that explains in full how the mistake could of happened:

<snip>

In a recent issue of the Indy, writer and ISU Cinema Society member John K. Wilson offered a reasonable explanation as to why controversial edit appears in "Fahrenheit 9/11." Moore's researchers, using a NEXIS search engine to find newspaper headlines, may have discovered a text-only version of Soderlund's letter. Using that version, Wilson presupposes Moore's production team put together the graphic used in the movie, recreating The Pantagraph piece word-for-word.

The dateline switch from Dec. 5 to Dec. 19 isn't surprising, Wilson said, given Flick's own date mistake in reporting it. In a July column, Flick wrote the Moore graphic gave the date of Dec. 11 - not Dec. 5.

"Just for fun, we went back to the Dec. 19, 2001 editions, to ogle the headline and paper shown in the movie," Flick wrote. "But somehow there was no such news story in that day's paper.

"We found that curious," Flick's column continued. "How could a news headline that never appeared in the Dec. 19 paper appear in a copy of the Dec. 19 paper shown in the movie?

"Now we learn how."

Using NEXIS to search for news articles, "you have to notice the word 'editorial' in the section marker or you may mistake a letter for a news story," Wilson explained. "It's an easy mistake to make."

If Moore had used the actual Pantagraph piece, "it would have prevented all the other mistakes in [the] film," Wilson said. They would have realized it was a letter - assuming they didn't - [and] they wouldn't have screwed up the date, and there wouldn't be a controversy."

<snip>

This part explains it even better:

<snip>

According to cameraman Michael McDonough, who worked with Moore on "Bowling for Columbine," these elements exist because "that's just the way documentary films are shot... [It's] there to make the story [of a documentary] more understandable...

"They are not in every single documentary you'll see," said McDonough, "but probably nine out of every 10 documentaries has some form of recreation in them."

Wilson said the retyping of The Pantagraph headline and Soderlund's letter fall into the category of acceptable reinterpretation.

"The Pantagraph uses a different font, size and format for headlines on its own website," Wilson said. "Headline fonts are irrelevant. Moore accurately reported what a headline somewhere in the Pantagraph in Dec. 2001 said.

"If the Pantagraph headline had been the sole evidence of Gore winning the 2000 election in Florida, then the use would have been misleading," Wilson continued.

"But the Pantagraph [piece] was there just to visually illustrate the idea proved elsewhere. It was a very small detail of very little consequence.

"A typo in The Pantagraph - or the Indy, or the Vidette - may indicate carelessness, but it doesn't mean anythig else if the [content of] the newspaper is incorrect," Wilson added.

"We expect minor mistakes to be made on occasion. We don't send our lawyers after someone for them."

<snip>

Link: http://www.dailyvidette.org/media/p...ing.Keeps.fahrenheit.911.Burning-705323.shtml

I hope you have better proof of deceit, cuz this minute detail is simply grasping at straws.

Next...
 
Middleground said:
According to cameraman Michael McDonough, who worked with Moore on "Bowling for Columbine," these elements exist because "that's just the way documentary films are shot... [It's] there to make the story [of a documentary] more understandable...

"They are not in every single documentary you'll see," said McDonough, "but probably nine out of every 10 documentaries has some form of recreation in them."

Wilson said the retyping of The Pantagraph headline and Soderlund's letter fall into the category of acceptable reinterpretation.

"The Pantagraph uses a different font, size and format for headlines on its own website," Wilson said. "Headline fonts are irrelevant. Moore accurately reported what a headline somewhere in the Pantagraph in Dec. 2001 said.

"If the Pantagraph headline had been the sole evidence of Gore winning the 2000 election in Florida, then the use would have been misleading," Wilson continued.

"But the Pantagraph [piece] was there just to visually illustrate the idea proved elsewhere. It was a very small detail of very little consequence.

"A typo in The Pantagraph - or the Indy, or the Vidette - may indicate carelessness, but it doesn't mean anythig else if the [content of] the newspaper is incorrect," Wilson added.

"We expect minor mistakes to be made on occasion. We don't send our lawyers after someone for them."

<snip>

Link: http://www.dailyvidette.org/media/p...ing.Keeps.fahrenheit.911.Burning-705323.shtml

I hope you have better proof of deceit, cuz this minute detail is simply grasping at straws.

Next...

Nice post...To refute a claim of Michael Moore's deceit.....Let's ask Michael Moore's cameraman..."Is it deceit?"...Cameraman - "No"...."There you have it folks!"
 
cnredd said:
Sometimes Moore's fan are derided as "Moore-ons" for their uncritical, and nearly hysterical devotion to their hero. Some of the letter-writers do fit this category--but many do not.

Just curious... are the anti-Moore people called "Moore-ans?" ;)
 
Middleground said:
Just curious... are the anti-Moore people called "Moore-ans?" ;)

Nope...they're called "normal".
 
cnredd said:
Nice post...To refute a claim of Michael Moore's deceit.....Let's ask Michael Moore's cameraman..."Is it deceit?"...Cameraman - "No"...."There you have it folks!"

LOL... read the whole thing, cnredd. You wanted answers, and I supplied them. If you choose to be closed-minded and cherry-pick information, it's your loss. Keep on believing what you believe, no matter the truth.
 
cnredd said:
Nope...they're called "normal".

Normal, but can't spell. :)

I see. And what about Limbaugh and Coulter fans? Same thing?
 
Middleground said:
Normal, but can't spell. :)

I see. And what about Limbaugh and Coulter fans? Same thing?

Now THEY are idiots....
 
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