Michael Moore - liberator or slanderer

[cnredd]

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

All anyone needs to know...

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by FiremanRyan:
Several sources, most notably the documentary film Fahrenheit 9/11, have reported that Karzai once worked as a consultant for the oil company Unocal. Spokesmen for both Unocal and Karzai have denied any such relationship. The claim appears to have originated in the December 9, 2001 issue of the French newspaper Le Monde. Some have suggested that Karzai was confused with U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan Zalmay Khalilzad.

Here is a quote and some links to the contrary. By the way, I went to your link and read your source.

(*Editors Note | Since September 11th, 2001, there has been intense speculation regarding Bush administration negotiations with the Taliban regarding this very project prior to the attacks. American petroleum giant Unocal very much wanted this project for years, but it was stymied in 1998 after bin Laden blew up two American embassies in Africa, causing the Taliban to be diplomatically isolated. There are a number of reports that describe a reinvigoration of this pipeline plan after Bush took office, and further describe the Bush administration's negotiations with the Taliban including threats of war if the project was not allowed to pass through Afghanistan. Some say these threats, in the name of the pipeline, triggered the 9/11 attacks. The Taliban is gone, Afghan President Harmid Karzai is a former Unocal consultant, and the pipeline deal is finally done. - wrp)

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/27/6422/printer

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/063005E.shtml

http://www.truthout.org/docs_01/01.14A.Zalmay.Oil.htm

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/12.30A.afgh.pipe.htm

 

[cnredd]

I just went to truthout.org...I can't quite understand how this site could be used as a legitimate source....


That would be like saying, "Minorities are bad...and I can prove it"...

and then showing a link to the klan....

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by cnredd:
I just went to truthout.org...I can't quite understand how this site could be used as a legitimate source....

That would be like saying, "Minorities are bad...and I can prove it"...

and then showing a link to the klan....

It is just as good a source as www.globalsecurity.org without the vision of Empire.

 

[Datamonkee]

Wow. That entire post sounds like you have never been in the military. So let me enlighten you to the military's way of trying to pass the time. When we are at war with a country, the majority is not spent fighting. It is spent maneuvering or protecting what we have already fought for. Putting a boom box in a tank isn't meant to make it feel like a video game, it is a way to pass the time in an almost completely silent and hot machine. Imagine trying to drive for 6 hours without a stereo. Bet you can't do it. Should we not allow the soldiers the same luxuries you have everyday? Should they be sitting inside their tanks in silence, contemplating the fact that they are being sent to kill other humans to keep you or other people safe? Especially when you (and that is a generic "you", not a targeted "you") sit back here in a protected and free country bad mouthing them for being in the military. Micheal Moore painted the military as uncaring thugs that are forced to do the will of a tyrannical dictator. For that alone, he should be dropped off in these countries that we are "invading" and allowed to try an make his offensive documentaries there. Bet he gets hacked up like a pig in market. Bet he appreciates his freedom a bit more, and the soldiers that have died to keep it for him. There is voicing your opinion, and then there is doing it in a way that is offensive and insulting. His version of voicing his opinion is the later. The people in the military that he interviewed were a minority of the military. There is always a divisive voice in any group of people. Always. He found them, gave them 5 minutes of fame, and distorted many of the conversations he had with these families. I was in the first trip (Desert Storm/Shield) over there. I was also part of the effort to save Haitians and Cubans when they decided to sail over here on inner tubes and refrigerators.
What they fail to show about the military are the humanitarian efforts that we have been a big part of. The pounds of candy and stuffed animals that soldiers give away out of their own pockets to the civilian populace over there. The medical attention, the education, and just the ability to live without fear for most of the populace.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, until you walk a mile in my shoes, don't pass judgment from information given by someone who got his information second or third hand. Michael Moore was never military. And to borrow a line from someone else in this forum, until you have been in the military, you truly have no concept of the life of a military person.

 

[Showtyme]

Michael Moore is a media whore. I could pull more accurate facts out of my ass.

... omg did I just type that out loud

By the way, nice post datamonkee... you're my hero :applaud

 

[debate_junkie]

Wow. That entire post sounds like you have never been in the military. So let me enlighten you to the military's way of trying to pass the time. When we are at war with a country, the majority is not spent fighting. It is spent maneuvering or protecting what we have already fought for. Putting a boom box in a tank isn't meant to make it feel like a video game, it is a way to pass the time in an almost completely silent and hot machine. Imagine trying to drive for 6 hours without a stereo. Bet you can't do it. Should we not allow the soldiers the same luxuries you have everyday? Should they be sitting inside their tanks in silence, contemplating the fact that they are being sent to kill other humans to keep you or other people safe? Especially when you (and that is a generic "you", not a targeted "you") sit back here in a protected and free country bad mouthing them for being in the military. Micheal Moore painted the military as uncaring thugs that are forced to do the will of a tyrannical dictator. For that alone, he should be dropped off in these countries that we are "invading" and allowed to try an make his offensive documentaries there. Bet he gets hacked up like a pig in market. Bet he appreciates his freedom a bit more, and the soldiers that have died to keep it for him. There is voicing your opinion, and then there is doing it in a way that is offensive and insulting. His version of voicing his opinion is the later. The people in the military that he interviewed were a minority of the military. There is always a divisive voice in any group of people. Always. He found them, gave them 5 minutes of fame, and distorted many of the conversations he had with these families. I was in the first trip (Desert Storm/Shield) over there. I was also part of the effort to save Haitians and Cubans when they decided to sail over here on inner tubes and refrigerators.
What they fail to show about the military are the humanitarian efforts that we have been a big part of. The pounds of candy and stuffed animals that soldiers give away out of their own pockets to the civilian populace over there. The medical attention, the education, and just the ability to live without fear for most of the populace.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, until you walk a mile in my shoes, don't pass judgment from information given by someone who got his information second or third hand. Michael Moore was never military. And to borrow a line from someone else in this forum, until you have been in the military, you truly have no concept of the life of a military person.

I know I could have probably posted my reply without a quote, but damn it was so good I thought it needed to be on the board a second time! Way to go Data. I applaud you in your efforts, and THANK YOU for your service.

I would like to add, being from a military family.. I do know second hand from my family members tours of duty, particularly my cousin's that he's spent many a day surrounded by Iraqi children, tearing up as they laugh and giggle and hug a teddy bear like it's gold; afraid to open their chocolate bar because they fear once it's gone, there WON'T be another one. My cousin also said that many a time, a civilian has just walked up to him, and hugged him. Not said a word, just hugged him.

Michael Moore hasn't a CLUE what is going on. I bet if he did, he'd know that many a night.. MANY soldiers aren't asleep.. but are awake on a watch intent on keeping the peace so Iraqi's can sleep. How about it Michael? Can YOU do that? Hmm? Would you be willing to take up a gun and watch the silence to ensure it STAYS silent? How about all you who take Moore's word as god? WOULD YOU?

Michael Moore is non-factor when it comes to troops, and the jobs they're doing. He knows squat, and that's being generous. For those that believe him... you're extemely misled. Hell, I don't think Moore would know the truth if it bit him in his fat ass. Think about that a minute.

 

[Showtyme]

This is so good I think I'm gonna cry

 

[Alastor]

None of the above. He's a liberal with an agenda. He didn't outright lie or propogandize as much in F 9-11 as he did in Bowling, but he still did a fair bit of it.

Of course he does it for his agenda, and the money, but ultimately that's what America is about, so it's hard to dime him as a traitor.

 

[SixStringHero]

I don't about you but a "documentary" that contains 59 deceits can hardly qualify as informative, factual or objective; which is what I thought the point of a documentary was in the first place.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Datamonkee:
Wow. That entire post sounds like you have never been in the military. So let me enlighten you to the military's way of trying to pass the time. When we are at war with a country, the majority is not spent fighting. It is spent maneuvering or protecting what we have already fought for. Putting a boom box in a tank isn't meant to make it feel like a video game, it is a way to pass the time in an almost completely silent and hot machine. Imagine trying to drive for 6 hours without a stereo. Bet you can't do it. Should we not allow the soldiers the same luxuries you have everyday? Should they be sitting inside their tanks in silence, contemplating the fact that they are being sent to kill other humans to keep you or other people safe? Especially when you (and that is a generic "you", not a targeted "you") sit back here in a protected and free country bad mouthing them for being in the military. Micheal Moore painted the military as uncaring thugs that are forced to do the will of a tyrannical dictator. For that alone, he should be dropped off in these countries that we are "invading" and allowed to try an make his offensive documentaries there. Bet he gets hacked up like a pig in market. Bet he appreciates his freedom a bit more, and the soldiers that have died to keep it for him. There is voicing your opinion, and then there is doing it in a way that is offensive and insulting. His version of voicing his opinion is the later. The people in the military that he interviewed were a minority of the military. There is always a divisive voice in any group of people. Always. He found them, gave them 5 minutes of fame, and distorted many of the conversations he had with these families. I was in the first trip (Desert Storm/Shield) over there. I was also part of the effort to save Haitians and Cubans when they decided to sail over here on inner tubes and refrigerators.
What they fail to show about the military are the humanitarian efforts that we have been a big part of. The pounds of candy and stuffed animals that soldiers give away out of their own pockets to the civilian populace over there. The medical attention, the education, and just the ability to live without fear for most of the populace.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, until you walk a mile in my shoes, don't pass judgment from information given by someone who got his information second or third hand. Michael Moore was never military. And to borrow a line from someone else in this forum, until you have been in the military, you truly have no concept of the life of a military person.

What the guy said in the movie was, "This is what we like most when we go into battle..." That's a little different. Playing "The Roof is on Fire" while your completely destroying an entire town (including its only working hospital) is disgusting. I don't have to be in the military to know that! And they do have the right to refuse "illegal orders."

If you check out some of my other posts, I have uploaded pictures of these very Marines handing out candy. And one that was feeding a baby. I'm quite aware that the guys in the Moore film are in the minority. Then again, how would I know, I'm not in the military.

 

[ludahai]

Do you know what makes my blood boil? Is watching Bush do nothing AFTER he was told we were under attack. Someone had to come in and tell him that he had to go! This Leader didn't do anything until someone told him too.

THAT is idiotic! What did you want him to do, add to the national panic by storming out of a second grade classroom?!? He was calm, collected, and allowed people to gather the facts before he commented on them in a clear, calm manner. What did you want him to do? Storm out of the classroom of second graders and make them feel even more scared than they would have otherwise?!?!? I am a high school teacher and was teaching at a metro-Atlanta high school at the time. I remember how frightened the high school students were. Imagine second graders? Imagine if the President had left in a panic with absolutely NOTHING TO BE GAINED!

Must be wonderful being a leftist. You get to criticize the actions of the President because Gore lost. Do you think Gore would have handled it any better? I don't think so. Even the teacher in the classroom at the time (an African American woman who did not vote for Bush) agreed that his reaction was the appropriate one!

 

[ludahai]

So are you saying Americas minds should not be free?

They should be free of the pus that that lying pusbag by the name of Michael Moore spouts off. If you can't recognize his DOCUGANDA works as unabased lies, you have serious problems.

 

[cnredd]

They should be free of the pus that that lying pusbag by the name of Michael Moore spouts off. If you can't recognize his DOCUGANDA works as unabased lies, you have serious problems.

Billo's past argument...I gave up weeks ago...SMIRKnCHIMP is catching up to him quickly.

 

[ludahai]

Billo>

Let's take this one lie at a time.

How about the letter to the editor of a newspaper called the Pentograph that was doctored to look like a genuine news article and even included a doctored date. The letter in question is regarding the Florida recount and claimed that Gore won the recount.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by ludahai:
THAT is idiotic! What did you want him to do, add to the national panic by storming out of a second grade classroom?!? He was calm, collected, and allowed people to gather the facts before he commented on them in a clear, calm manner. What did you want him to do? Storm out of the classroom of second graders and make them feel even more scared than they would have otherwise?!?!? I am a high school teacher and was teaching at a metro-Atlanta high school at the time. I remember how frightened the high school students were. Imagine second graders? Imagine if the President had left in a panic with absolutely NOTHING TO BE GAINED!

Must be wonderful being a leftist. You get to criticize the actions of the President because Gore lost. Do you think Gore would have handled it any better? I don't think so. Even the teacher in the classroom at the time (an African American woman who did not vote for Bush) agreed that his reaction was the appropriate one!

So you would sacrifice the rest of the nation so as not to upset a class of second graders.

 

[Kelzie]

Must be wonderful being a leftist. You get to criticize the actions of the President because Gore lost. Do you think Gore would have handled it any better? I don't think so. Even the teacher in the classroom at the time (an African American woman who did not vote for Bush) agreed that his reaction was the appropriate one!

Hey hey. Don't be mean to us lefties. I would criticize whoever won if they deserved criticism. Unless they were God. Which would never happen. Seperation of church and state, and all.

 

[ludahai]

So you would sacrifice the rest of the nation so as not to upset a class of second graders.

What exactly could President Bush have done in the FIVE MINUTES he spent with the second graders? Could he have gone up and stop the attacks? They had ALREADY HAPPENED! There was NOTHING TO BE GAINED by making an sudden rash action at that moment in time. Gotta love it to you libs. President Bush takes tough action, you are critical. He takes time to reflect and allow information to be gathered, you are critical. Now, how about tackling lie number one from Moore's dozens of lies and distortions known as F-lie 9/11.

 

[ludahai]

Hey hey. Don't be mean to us lefties. I would criticize whoever won if they deserved criticism. Unless they were God. Which would never happen. Seperation of church and state, and all.

Besides, as God is perfect and we are so imperfect, criticizing God would not be the most sane thing a person could do, though some do it anyway.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by ludahai:
Billo>

Let's take this one lie at a time.

How about the letter to the editor of a newspaper called the Pentograph that was doctored to look like a genuine news article and even included a doctored date. The letter in question is regarding the Florida recount and claimed that Gore won the recount.

You want to talk about lies and letters, how about all the lies Bush told leading up to this illegal war (see the "War President"s thread, Post #77) or the Downing Street Memo's. Care to talk about those?

 

[Kelzie]

Besides, as God is perfect and we are so imperfect, criticizing God would not be the most sane thing a person could do, though some do it anyway.

Yeah umm, hello. Pregnancy? Seriously, who came up with that one? Very odd. The FIRST thing that should be changed when God is president too. I'm in favor of being created in a jar. Less messy and less pain.

 

[ludahai]

You want to talk about lies and letters, how about all the lies Bush told leading up to this illegal war (see the "War President"s thread, Post #77) or the Downing Street Memo's. Care to talk about those?

Nice try, but this thread is about Michael Moore. You haven't answered my question, which is ON TOPIC. Why do you expect me to address your off topic question? Typically die in the wool leftist!

 

[ludahai]

Yeah umm, hello. Pregnancy? Seriously, who came up with that one? Very odd. The FIRST thing that should be changed when God is president too. I'm in favor of being created in a jar. Less messy and less pain.

Hmm. I am glad I am not sitting next to you. I would rather deal with a genuine air raid than with God's wrath.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by ludahai:
What exactly could President Bush have done in the FIVE MINUTES he spent with the second graders? Could he have gone up and stop the attacks? They had ALREADY HAPPENED! There was NOTHING TO BE GAINED by making an sudden rash action at that moment in time. Gotta love it to you libs. President Bush takes tough action, you are critical. He takes time to reflect and allow information to be gathered, you are critical. Now, how about tackling lie number one from Moore's dozens of lies and distortions known as F-lie 9/11.

Somehow, I can't see Roosevelt, Eisenhower or JFK just sitting there after hearing the same kind of news.

 

[Kelzie]

Hmm. I am glad I am not sitting next to you. I would rather deal with a genuine air raid than with God's wrath.

I'm just helping. You know, pointing out the fact that maybe She could have come up with a better system.