Mexico's "second amendment" contributes to it's high crime rate

[Peter King]

I see. So do you blame the Germans (I blame the Nazi's) or the inanimate objects.

Well, last time I checked the invaders came from the East, had a definite German accent, German passports and were driving German vehicles and stole loads of our valuables which were brought to Germany. Dutch men were forced to work in Germany, etc. etc. etc.

So no, the "nazi's" did not invade my country, the Germans did. Now the Nazi's where to blame for the war and plenty of them where in the armed forces but a lot of them where not Nazi's.

Who else is to blame? Nazi or not Nazi, they were Germans.

And I know it is very easy to try and confuse or obfuscate the issue about guns and the deaths they cause, but guns kill. They can be used to stop killing, don't get me wrong, but in the hands of a lot of people they are a tool that makes them able to kill people (if they so choose to kill).

 

[US Conservative]

Well, last time I checked the invaders came from the East, had a definite German accent, German passports and were driving German vehicles and stole loads of our valuables which were brought to Germany. Dutch men were forced to work in Germany, etc. etc. etc.

So no, the "nazi's" did not invade my country, the Germans did. Now the Nazi's where to blame for the war and plenty of them where in the armed forces but a lot of them where not Nazi's.

Who else is to blame? Nazi or not Nazi, they were Germans.

And I know it is very easy to try and confuse or obfuscate the issue about guns and the deaths they cause, but guns kill. They can be used to stop killing, don't get me wrong, but in the hands of a lot of people they are a tool that makes them able to kill people (if they so choose to kill).

Guns kill? Funny I went shooting just today, nobody died.


I didn't know inanimate objects could decide to kill.

You will have to fill me on that some time.

 

[TurtleDude]

Really? One of the major failures of gun control? Or a victim of being a country between the producers of drugs (and producing loads of the crap themselves) and the biggest importer of that poison in the Western World (aka the USA).

I would say that being a drug producing/transporting country, combined with the gangs that go with that disgusting trade and an ample stock of illegal arms from sources largely to the north of them in a country where gun purchases are no problem.

So I would say that it is the United States (without it planning or desiring to do so) is the main reason that the gun control in Mexico fails so miserably, rather than the premise of gun control itself.

you'd be wrong
lots of the cartels' guns come from places other than the USA

 

[LuddlyNeddite]

you'd be wrong
lots of the cartels' guns come from places other than the USA

WRONG!!!

95 percent of Mexico's cartel guns are bought at established, lisenced gun stores in Texas or Arizona

Smuggling of firearms into Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Peter King]

Guns kill? Funny I went shooting just today, nobody died.


I didn't know inanimate objects could decide to kill.

You will have to fill me on that some time.

Why is it such a problem for people to think that guns kill people? Is that a pro-gun meme to justify owning guns? I am not sure. You are already legally allowed guns, so why would people want to play "word" games with other people who are of the opinion that guns are dangerous and think it is perfectly legal and understandable that other countries who are not the United States of America are of the opinion that they are free to have laws that ban/restrict ownership of guns?

You claim guns are an inanimate object that do not decide to kill which is all fine and true, but guns do not live in a vacuum, they are not an abstract item. They are a tool which can, and is used often, to kill people. Simple, and for that reason some countries have guncontrol laws.

 

[Peter King]

you'd be wrong
lots of the cartels' guns come from places other than the USA

I think I read an article that over 70% of the confiscated cartel weapons where from the US?

According to the US Government Accountability Office, 87% of firearms seized by Mexico over the previous five years were traced to the US. Texas was the single largest source. The US attorney general, Eric Holder, told Congress last month that of 94,000 weapons captured from drug traffickers by the Mexican authorities, over 64,000 originated in the US.

How Mexico's drug cartels profit from flow of guns across the border | World news | The Guardian

It is fine you want to have free and totally unregulated gun sales but that leads to people who abuse that freedom most horrendously.

If anyone at Academy sports shop in Houston was suspicious as John Hernandez pushed $2,600 in cash across the counter, they kept it to themselves.

The 25 year-old unemployed machinist in dark glasses walked out of the gun shop clutching three powerful assault rifles modelled on the US army's M-16.

A few weeks later, Hernandez bought five similar weapons at another Houston gun shop, Carter's Country. There were few questions on that occasion, either, or as he visited other weapons stores across the city in the following months until he had bought a total of 14 assault rifles and nine other weapons for nearly $25,000.

With each purchase, all the law required was that Hernandez prove he lived in Texas and wait a few minutes while the store checked he had no criminal record.

Months later, one of those assault rifles was seized in neighbouring Mexico at the scene of the "Acapulco police massacre", after one of the country's most powerful drug cartels killed five officers and two secretaries in an attack at the beach resort once regarded as a millionaires' playground. Another was recovered after the kidnap and murder of a cattle buyer. Others were found in the hands of top-level enforcers for narcotics traffickers, or abandoned after attacks on Mexican police and the military. The guns have been tied to eight killings in Mexico.

In time, US federal agents discovered that Hernandez was at the heart of a ring of two dozen people who bought more than 300 weapons from Texas gun shops for one of the more notorious Mexican drug cartels, Los Zetas. Some of those guns have since been linked to the killings of at least 18 Mexican police officers and civilians, including members of the judiciary and a businessman who was abducted and murdered.

The US does not live in a vacuum, weapons from there are just as likely to go down over the border as drugs go north to their US customers. Why would Mexican cartels go to other countries when the guns can legally be bought just across the border.

 

[US Conservative]

Why is it such a problem for people to think that guns kill people? Is that a pro-gun meme to justify owning guns? I am not sure. You are already legally allowed guns, so why would people want to play "word" games with other people who are of the opinion that guns are dangerous and think it is perfectly legal and understandable that other countries who are not the United States of America are of the opinion that they are free to have laws that ban/restrict ownership of guns?

You claim guns are an inanimate object that do not decide to kill which is all fine and true, but guns do not live in a vacuum, they are not an abstract item. They are a tool which can, and is used often, to kill people. Simple, and for that reason some countries have guncontrol laws.

The point is that the problem isn't weapons.

 

[Goshin]

Moderator's Warning:

Lying and baiting go Flush...

 

[Threegoofs]

Ah, yes. Lying that the Mexican Constitution has a clause that ensures guns are available,

Oh wait. That's not a lie outside the alternative reality of the gun forum.

But it clearly is baiting, because saying something good about gun control in that section is all baiting and trolling, because the toddlers get angry when you introduce logic into their rationale for having guns.

 

[Peter King]

The point is that the problem isn't weapons.

Of course weapons are the problem, they may not be the only problem, but they are the problem.

If the cartels did not have the weapons they have, they would not be as powerful as they are now.

 

[US Conservative]

Of course weapons are the problem, they may not be the only problem, but they are the problem.

If the cartels did not have the weapons they have, they would not be as powerful as they are now.

In WW2 there were lots of weapons in larger nations around you-including France and the UK. Those were the instruments that delivered you from nazi tyranny. They are tools, nothing more.

 

[Peter King]

In WW2 there were lots of weapons in larger nations around you-including France and the UK. Those were the instruments that delivered you from nazi tyranny. They are tools, nothing more.

So what? They are not just tools, they are instruments of death and destruction and are a problem. Because as said, if the Germans did not have the weaponry they did, the Allied Forces would not have to arm themselves to fight the Germans.

All I am saying is that in Mexico the gun-control efforts are made impossible by the free flow of guns from (mainly but not exclusively) the USA and a lot of suffering is caused by these weapons because a lot of them are in the hands of criminals.

 

[EdwinWillers]

And the U.S. Is limited to what the ATF and SCOTUS allows. You can't get an automatic weapon or sawed off shotgun as easily as a small caliber handgun.

The OPs primary argument stands, at least in the eyes of sane people.

Thank you for being the voice of reason. It is clear, from the solid, undeniable, beyond a reasonable doubt proof I have provided that when a population has a "right to bear arms," and weak gun laws like Mexico has, then there will be very high gun crime

Please feel free to like my post, if you agree with it.

Get a room, you two.

 

[TurtleDude]

I think I read an article that over 70% of the confiscated cartel weapons where from the US?



How Mexico's drug cartels profit from flow of guns across the border | World news | The Guardian

It is fine you want to have free and totally unregulated gun sales but that leads to people who abuse that freedom most horrendously.




The US does not live in a vacuum, weapons from there are just as likely to go down over the border as drugs go north to their US customers. Why would Mexican cartels go to other countries when the guns can legally be bought just across the border.

NO WHAT YOU READ WAS THE OBAMA administration saying most of the "TRACED" weapons were american made. If you are ignorant of how things work, that makes it sound like most of the guns came from the USA when in reality, the only guns that could be "traced" are ones coming from the USA. THe soviet bloc weapons cannot be traced by either the ATF or the Mexican police

 

[TurtleDude]

WRONG!!!

95 percent of Mexico's cartel guns are bought at established, lisenced gun stores in Texas or Arizona

Smuggling of firearms into Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

STFU cum stain-you are lying again

from the article you cited Guano for brains

ince 1992 (and as recently as 2009), the Congressional Research Service has stated that the ATF tracing system (eTrace) was not designed to collect statistics.[19][20] Nevertheless, on February 2008, William Hoover, Assistant Director for Field Operations of ATF, testified before Congress that over 90% of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico originated from various sources within the United States.[21] However, following a review by the U.S. Office of the Inspector General (OIG) on September 2010, the ATF admitted that “the 90% figure cited to Congress could be misleading because it applied only to the small portion of Mexican crime guns that are traced.”[18] During this 2010 review by the OIG, the ATF could not provide updated information on the percentage of traced Mexican crime guns that were sourced to (that is, found to be manufactured in or imported through) the United States.[18] The November 2010 OIG analysis of ATF data suggest a low percentage of successful weapons traces, ranging from 27% to 44%.[22] In February 2011, Stratfor Global Intelligence calculated the number to be situated between 12% and 48%, and reported almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States

stupid turd.

 

[TurtleDude]

So what? They are not just tools, they are instruments of death and destruction and are a problem. Because as said, if the Germans did not have the weaponry they did, the Allied Forces would not have to arm themselves to fight the Germans.

All I am saying is that in Mexico the gun-control efforts are made impossible by the free flow of guns from (mainly but not exclusively) the USA and a lot of suffering is caused by these weapons because a lot of them are in the hands of criminals.

STFU you Eurodick. there is severe AMERICAN penalties for selling guns to Mexicans. Its a severe felony for Americans to take guns into Mexico. "free flow" is a nonsense

 

[Linc]

STFU cum stain-you are lying again-------from the article you cited Guano for brains

:lamo:lamo I find you in good form tonight.

STFU you Eurodick.

Not bad :lamo
Too bad I have to go through this whole damn thread to see when it was flushed.
A simple [F:58] would make things easier.

And what happened to the likes before it was flushed?
They seemed to have disappeared the last few weeks.

Just trying to be helpful without snark.
When they upgrade software again, a reference to the upstairs forum whence flush originated would also be nice, just fer shitters .

 

[TurtleDude]

:lamo:lamo I find you in good form tonight.



Not bad :lamo
Too bad I have to go through this whole damn thread to see when it was flushed.
A simple [F:58] would make things easier.

And what happened to the likes before it was flushed?
They seemed to have disappeared the last few weeks.

Just trying to be helpful without snark.
When they upgrade software again, a reference to the upstairs forum whence flush originated would also be nice, just fer shitters .

went to the race today NIMBY. not a big race fan but a good friend of mine always gets me and the family good seats and we enjoy her company immensely so its a great time. this was a great race-dozens of lead changes-normally at the first turn during the last 20 or so laps. a lot of yellow flags though but a great finish

 

[Linc]

It's great to get out outside for several hours with family and friends at a sports event, especially over the holidays.
A lot of my extended family loves the races--I like the history with Moonshiners and NASCAR.

Student taught at Joliet East, about a mile or so from Chicagoland Speedway in Joliet.
I'd have to take the great equalizer though--binoculars.

went to the race today NIMBY.
not a big race fan but a good friend of mine always gets me and the family good seats and we enjoy her company immensely so its a great time.
this was a great race-dozens of lead changes-normally at the first turn during the last 20 or so laps.
a lot of yellow flags though but a great finish

Watching the Cavs in overtime with a 112-111 lead right now with 30.3 seconds left--an eternity in the NBA .

 

[TurtleDude]

It's great to get out outside for several hours with family and friends at a sports event, especially over the holidays.
A lot of my extended family loves the races--I like the history with Moonshiners and NASCAR.

Student taught at Joliet East, about a mile or so from Chicagoland Speedway in Joliet.
I'd have to take the great equalizer though--binoculars.



Watching the Cavs in overtime with a 112-111 lead right now with 30.3 seconds left--an eternity in the NBA .

the longest hour in the world is the last 2 minutes of a close NBA game

 

[Peter King]

STFU you Eurodick. there is severe AMERICAN penalties for selling guns to Mexicans. Its a severe felony for Americans to take guns into Mexico. "free flow" is a nonsense

Classy as ever, there may be penalties but it does not stop the flow of weapons from the US.

 

[TurtleDude]

Classy as ever, there may be penalties but it does not stop the flow of weapons from the US.

I couldn't care less what a bunch of eurofags want to do. when you can come up with some laws that actually stops people who traffic narcotics from importing illegal guns WITHOUT screwing with the rights of millions of honest American gun owners, I might listen

Until then SHUT THE FUCK UP since it appears its harassing honest American gun owners is what you truly desire

 

[Peter King]

I couldn't care less what a bunch of eurofags want to do. when you can come up with some laws that actually stops people who traffic narcotics from importing illegal guns WITHOUT screwing with the rights of millions of honest American gun owners, I might listen

Until then SHUT THE FUCK UP since it appears its harassing honest American gun owners is what you truly desire

Stop whining about things I never wrote. I do not have to come up with laws, that is your problem because sadly it is your weaponry that finds it's way to Mexico.

And there are loads of things that can be done to try and curtail that trade (like every registering gun sales, even in gun shows or in the second hand trade). But as every even minute gun law is immediately shouted down by the NRA as violating the second amendment, I would day it is your problem of making up laws, not mine. As you have stated I am a eurofag so why should I have to do **** all.

 

[US Conservative]

Stop whining about things I never wrote. I do not have to come up with laws, that is your problem because sadly it is your weaponry that finds it's way to Mexico.

And there are loads of things that can be done to try and curtail that trade (like every registering gun sales, even in gun shows or in the second hand trade). But as every even minute gun law is immediately shouted down by the NRA as violating the second amendment, I would day it is your problem of making up laws, not mine. As you have stated I am a eurofag so why should I have to do **** all.

Learn to be more thankful, euro.

Thank goodness for your liberators, each day every day.

 

[Peter King]

Learn to be more thankful, euro.

Thank goodness for your liberators, each day every day.

Yes, we owe thanks to the greatest generation that freed us. It should not mean that I have to put up with people calling me a eurofag or eurodick. Nor does it force me to shut the **** up as the same poster has done.

I do not necessarily need to be thankful to anybody here IMHO. Because that honor goes to the liberators, not to people are of the opinion that gratitude towards these liberators means not being critical of whiny insulting people me or others who voice their opinion.

Actually, these liberators gave their lives for freedom of speech and freedom of oppression, so I am not going to dishonor them by being silenced by people who cannot discuss with civility or who want me to stop giving my opinion for bogus reasons.