Merit-Based Immigration (1 Viewer)

[Absentglare]

You're calling restricting immigration from a country racist, so... how do you explain it?

No, i'm saying that there's a relationship between country of origin and race.

 

[backpacker]

Sure, it's a sound principle. Better to come here and be able to really participate in and contribute to society.

Wouldn't the world be better off if the people with the most merit remained in their poophole countries and made them a little less crappy?

I am all for expanding immigration and having a less cumbersome immigration process, but there is an argument that we are poaching the people who would better benefit their homeland by staying put. Personally, I would aim to design a system that makes it much harder and longer to become a citizen or a PRA, but make it easier for those who are employed to come and go as they please for however long they can find work.

 

[Northern Light]

The U.S. birth rate is at an all time low. Without immigration we won't reach replacement in the next generation. We can get selective about immigration but not too selective. The claim that immigrants are taking the jobs that Americans could do is farcical because no Americans want those kinds of jobs.

People are looking at merit as educated, wealthy, etc... having privilege doesn't mean you have merit. It means you were born lucky. Yeah some people work their way up but there is usually some degree of privilege at work. Nobody wants to talk about the immigrants (often illegals) that are harvesting your produce year around and boxing it to be sent to the supermarkets.

What about refugees fleeing torture?

 

[faithful_servant]

My view is TBD. "Merit" is something that would need to be defined and it can be used to create a system that is bad for Americans.

Take for example the constant mentioning of "someone like a software developer". Guess a normal job that people can go to school for 4 years and get a good pay for? You guessed it! Software developer. Now imagine tech companies lobbying Congress to bring in hordes of software developers so that the pay for that job drops in value.

How about another example, in order ensure that people don't come from those "**** hole countries" we create a merit system that tends to have criteria that is mainly met by Western Europeon countries or very wealthy in less developed countries. Are we better off?

My merit, can you work? Do you have a history of working? If you are physically unable to do manual work do you have a skill set that would allow you to still find a job? If so, start the process and you have enough merit.

Make the "merit" based on demand for the skills the immigrant has. If the market is flooded with software developers, then that skill has low merit. If the market is demanding a lot of asparagus pickers and there are none to fill that need, then that skill has high merit. It's very simple. I also like the idea of bonded immigrants with higher bonds for lower merit immigrants and lower bonds for higher merit immigrants. ALL visas come with a 7 year expiration date when the bond gets adjusted. If the merit for your skills changes downward, then you have to fill that bond to match and if it changes upward, then you get a rebate. If your skill's merit drops below a certain point, then you are sent back to your nation of origin, unless your employer can show that you are irreplaceable.

 

[iliveonramen]

Make the "merit" based on demand for the skills the immigrant has. If the market is flooded with software developers, then that skill has low merit. If the market is demanding a lot of asparagus pickers and there are none to fill that need, then that skill has high merit. It's very simple. I also like the idea of bonded immigrants with higher bonds for lower merit immigrants and lower bonds for higher merit immigrants. ALL visas come with a 7 year expiration date when the bond gets adjusted. If the merit for your skills changes downward, then you have to fill that bond to match and if it changes upward, then you get a rebate. If your skill's merit drops below a certain point, then you are sent back to your nation of origin, unless your employer can show that you are irreplaceable.

I'm fine for stopping illegal immigration and I'm all for making sure people that come here will/can work.

I stated in my original post what I'm worried about and that is lobbyist using a merit system to devalue US skilled workers. For some reason everyone wants to argue immigration with me as if I stated a declaration to open all borders and end the idea of citizenship.

I'm glad that you seem to be actually going off of my actual post rather than seeing "very liberal" and creating my position in your head.

The bonded idea is interesting.

 

[Cephus]

The U.S. birth rate is at an all time low. Without immigration we won't reach replacement in the next generation. We can get selective about immigration but not too selective. The claim that immigrants are taking the jobs that Americans could do is farcical because no Americans want those kinds of jobs.

That assumes we need replacement. We could do with a lot less people in this country. And Americans are perfectly happy to take those jobs, so long as they pay enough. Moving forward, we're going to have to accept that if we want immigration controls, some things just might cost more. Studies have already shown that they won't cost significantly more, a few cents here and there, but that seems to be the only argument the left can come up with.

 

[Northern Light]

That assumes we need replacement. We could do with a lot less people in this country. And Americans are perfectly happy to take those jobs, so long as they pay enough. Moving forward, we're going to have to accept that if we want immigration controls, some things just might cost more. Studies have already shown that they won't cost significantly more, a few cents here and there, but that seems to be the only argument the left can come up with.

I agree fewer people would be better but that's not how the growth model of capitalism currently operates. When they talk about population replacement, they are looking for ways to meet capital demand. They're not thinking of ecological burden or actual carrying capacity of our economy, just profits.

 

[Cephus]

I agree fewer people would be better but that's not how the growth model of capitalism currently operates. When they talk about population replacement, they are looking for ways to meet capital demand. They're not thinking of ecological burden or actual carrying capacity of our economy, just profits.

Capitalism doesn't require more people, just wealthier people. It requires more money in the marketplace. We could do much better with a lot less people who make a lot more money.

 

[lefty louie]

It depends on what those merits are. If we take the best qualified out of every other country there will only be ****hole people left in ****hole countries to make those ****hole countries look that much ****tier. It could backfire.

 

[Cephus]

It depends on what those merits are. If we take the best qualified out of every other country there will only be ****hole people left in ****hole countries to make those ****hole countries look that much ****tier. It could backfire.

Let's be honest, when most of the people are fleeing their countries, they don't care about the countries to begin with. It has nothing to do with who we take, but the attitudes of these people in the first place. Imagine if Americans had decided to just run away from the British? Where would America be right now? It's only because we were willing to stand up against England and fight that we became the greatest country on the planet.

Where is that attitude today?

 

[lefty louie]

Let's be honest, when most of the people are fleeing their countries, they don't care about the countries to begin with. It has nothing to do with who we take, but the attitudes of these people in the first place. Imagine if Americans had decided to just run away from the British? Where would America be right now? It's only because we were willing to stand up against England and fight that we became the greatest country on the planet.

Where is that attitude today?

I'm not sure I'm understanding you fully here, are you wondering where the Patriotism for America is in new arrivals? If so I can assure you it is alive and well in many new arrivals. It's also lacking in many, but those many to me seem to be in the youth that get brain washed into thinking everything is supposed to be in their favor anyway. Most young people start out as liberal, and as they get taxed to death roll over into reality.

 

[Cephus]

I'm not sure I'm understanding you fully here, are you wondering where the Patriotism for America is in new arrivals? If so I can assure you it is alive and well in many new arrivals. It's also lacking in many, but those many to me seem to be in the youth that get brain washed into thinking everything is supposed to be in their favor anyway. Most young people start out as liberal, and as they get taxed to death roll over into reality.

No, I'm wondering where their patriotism for their home countries is. Why are they not willing to stand up and fight for their nations? These are not people who give a damn about the plot of land they live in, they'll just go anywhere that will give them free stuff. There is no attachment to their nations and no desire for liberty. It's just "gimme gimme gimme". Why should we want those people again?

 

[Glen Contrarian]

No, I'm wondering where their patriotism for their home countries is. Why are they not willing to stand up and fight for their nations? These are not people who give a damn about the plot of land they live in, they'll just go anywhere that will give them free stuff. There is no attachment to their nations and no desire for liberty. It's just "gimme gimme gimme". Why should we want those people again?

If you knew immigrants half as well as you seem to think you do, then you'd know better than to post the kind of tripe you just did. Most immigrants are very patriotic - more so on average IMO than the average native-born American...and their patriotism is a heck of a lot more sincere than that faux patriotism peddled by so many right-wingers who fly the Stars and Stripes right next to the Stars and Bars.

But of course you can't believe that, since you've already convinced yourself that if someone's not born here, they can't truly be patriotic. It's as if you've forgotten that we ARE a nation of immigrants, that unless you're pure-bred Native American, your ancestors too came here as immigrants. It used to be a point of national pride that we'd point to the Statue of Liberty and the immortal lines of "The New Colossus": "Give me your tired, your poor, your wretched refuse"...and that unlike any other nation on Earth, someone could come here and truly BE an American in every sense of the word.

But now, your side is so doggone afraid of the "browning of America", and you're turning your backs on a full century of being Reagan's shining city on a hill for all mankind. Instead, y'all are making us just another nation that resents the presence of and begrudges giving the helping hand to those not of the proper demographic. Y'all have forgotten what REAL patriotism is, and what REAL patriotism demands...

...but then again, y'all did just elect a guy who publicly and repeatedly take the word of an ex-KGB colonel over that of the NSA/CIA/FBI. All the conservative greats of bygone years are indeed spinning in their graves.

 

[lefty louie]

No, I'm wondering where their patriotism for their home countries is. Why are they not willing to stand up and fight for their nations? These are not people who give a damn about the plot of land they live in, they'll just go anywhere that will give them free stuff. There is no attachment to their nations and no desire for liberty. It's just "gimme gimme gimme". Why should we want those people again?

Can the same be said for everyone that left where they we're born? Being as realistic as I can be here, my MIL came from a ****hole, Lima Peru, which at one time was a nice 2nd world city, however a group called the "Shining path" took hold and innocent people were being killed in the streets, it was generally felt that the govt. was doing little to prevent this domestic terrorism an with the US being directly north of them and rumors of the streets being paved with gold (I'm serious) many made the move. If you look at crime rates in places like El Salvador and Honduras I can understand not wanting to risk raising a family in those conditions. I'd hope you can understand it as well. By the way my MIL came here legally and made the very most of her American dream, she owns her own home, is retired, lives somewhat comfortably on her pension and SS, has 2 daughters, both with master's + and doing well along with raising families

 

[lefty louie]

If you knew immigrants half as well as you seem to think you do, then you'd know better than to post the kind of tripe you just did. Most immigrants are very patriotic - more so on average IMO than the average native-born American...and their patriotism is a heck of a lot more sincere than that faux patriotism peddled by so many right-wingers who fly the Stars and Stripes right next to the Stars and Bars.

But of course you can't believe that, since you've already convinced yourself that if someone's not born here, they can't truly be patriotic. It's as if you've forgotten that we ARE a nation of immigrants, that unless you're pure-bred Native American, your ancestors too came here as immigrants. It used to be a point of national pride that we'd point to the Statue of Liberty and the immortal lines of "The New Colossus": "Give me your tired, your poor, your wretched refuse"...and that unlike any other nation on Earth, someone could come here and truly BE an American in every sense of the word.

But now, your side is so doggone afraid of the "browning of America", and you're turning your backs on a full century of being Reagan's shining city on a hill for all mankind. Instead, y'all are making us just another nation that resents the presence of and begrudges giving the helping hand to those not of the proper demographic. Y'all have forgotten what REAL patriotism is, and what REAL patriotism demands...

...but then again, y'all did just elect a guy who publicly and repeatedly take the word of an ex-KGB colonel over that of the NSA/CIA/FBI. All the conservative greats of bygone years are indeed spinning in their graves.

Hey, what's with the your side ****, don't paint me with the same broad brush if you don't mind, my wife is quite brown, and I love her to bits.

 

[Peter King]

aren't most immigrants (legal that is) already based on certain criteria? And has Trump not been misusing the work visa laws at his "Winter White House"? Do all visas he gets for "staff" at his golf club really not possible to find in the USA? I seriously doubt that.

But there is also refugees that should be helped based on compassion, not on getting better from it like Trump wants. Sometimes immigration should be based on what is good, not what is economically most profitable.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Hey, what's with the your side ****, don't paint me with the same broad brush if you don't mind, my wife is quite brown, and I love her to bits.

Then the two of you are certainly the exception to the rule...because - and this especially true in the age of Trump - it doesn't take a whole lot of brainpower to see that the GOP and the Right as a whole is growing ever whiter. Are you really going to try to claim otherwise?

FYI, I know quite a few white/brown marriages - they're pretty common in the Filipino/American community - and most of the men are certainly conservative (frankly, we liberals are a political minority therein). But again, these are but a drop in the bucket when compared to the Right as a whole.

So don't think I don't understand what you mean - I'm the only 100% white in my family (since all my close family Down South has passed away). In any case, none of this (including your point) detracts from the attitude that the Right has adopted on the macro scale.

One last thing - don't think for a moment that I'm accusing the right-wing rank-and-file of malicious racism - I'm not. It's been my position for well over a decade that the vast majority of conservatives are good, honest, well-meaning people who have no malice towards anyone. The problem is that y'all are being led down a path to someplace none of us want to go. Look at it this way: there is not a single former Republican president of which I'm aware (including Reagan and especially Eisenhower) that today's "conservatives" wouldn't reject out-of-hand as being left-wing liberals and/or socialists. Today's conservatives have forgotten what real conservatism is, and have replaced it with nationalism...and complained not one bit when Trump put an avowed white nationalist as his senior adviser soon after taking office.

I really am very concerned for the Right, because if you'll look through history, in all the great national upheavals (civil wars, coups, etc.) wherein so many were imprisoned or killed, neither side was full of evil people - most everyone were good, honest, well-meaning people who were being led to do terrible things by evil people. Think on that as you see - how you must see - the steady increase of racist dog-whistle rhetoric by those who are most influential in today's American right wing.

 

[lefty louie]

Then the two of you are certainly the exception to the rule...because - and this especially true in the age of Trump - it doesn't take a whole lot of brainpower to see that the GOP and the Right as a whole is growing ever whiter. Are you really going to try to claim otherwise?

FYI, I know quite a few white/brown marriages - they're pretty common in the Filipino/American community - and most of the men are certainly conservative (frankly, we liberals are a political minority therein). But again, these are but a drop in the bucket when compared to the Right as a whole.

So don't think I don't understand what you mean - I'm the only 100% white in my family (since all my close family Down South has passed away). In any case, none of this (including your point) detracts from the attitude that the Right has adopted on the macro scale.

One last thing - don't think for a moment that I'm accusing the right-wing rank-and-file of malicious racism - I'm not. It's been my position for well over a decade that the vast majority of conservatives are good, honest, well-meaning people who have no malice towards anyone. The problem is that y'all are being led down a path to someplace none of us want to go. Look at it this way: there is not a single former Republican president of which I'm aware (including Reagan and especially Eisenhower) that today's "conservatives" wouldn't reject out-of-hand as being left-wing liberals and/or socialists. Today's conservatives have forgotten what real conservatism is, and have replaced it with nationalism...and complained not one bit when Trump put an avowed white nationalist as his senior adviser soon after taking office.

I really am very concerned for the Right, because if you'll look through history, in all the great national upheavals (civil wars, coups, etc.) wherein so many were imprisoned or killed, neither side was full of evil people - most everyone were good, honest, well-meaning people who were being led to do terrible things by evil people. Think on that as you see - how you must see - the steady increase of racist dog-whistle rhetoric by those who are most influential in today's American right wing.

I don't know where your from but I can point to a ton of Latino's that are conservative, most Cubans that came over in the first wave were conservative, if you do a search you'll find conservative Latino groups all over the internet, black groups too. I don't really want to get into the label of right and left (as in calling names) but the media has done it's best to make the right seem all white and the rest of the world stands on the left. That is simply not true.

 

[Cephus]

Can the same be said for everyone that left where they we're born? Being as realistic as I can be here, my MIL came from a ****hole, Lima Peru, which at one time was a nice 2nd world city, however a group called the "Shining path" took hold and innocent people were being killed in the streets, it was generally felt that the govt. was doing little to prevent this domestic terrorism an with the US being directly north of them and rumors of the streets being paved with gold (I'm serious) many made the move. If you look at crime rates in places like El Salvador and Honduras I can understand not wanting to risk raising a family in those conditions. I'd hope you can understand it as well. By the way my MIL came here legally and made the very most of her American dream, she owns her own home, is retired, lives somewhat comfortably on her pension and SS, has 2 daughters, both with master's + and doing well along with raising families

You have to remember that the people are responsible for the government, at least in places with democratic elections, so if the government isn't doing what you want, it's on the shoulders of the voting public collectively to change it. If someone is running away because they live in a ****hole, whose fault is it that it got that way? If the people collectively want change, if they're willing to stand up and put their lives on the line to make those changes, why haven't things changed?

 

[AtlantaAdonis]

"Merit-based immigration" = more white immigrants.

Countries of color lack the infrastructure and educational facilities to produce people with advanced degrees due decades of colonialism and slavery by white countries, so the bigots and xenophobes figure they will get more white immigrants if there is "merit" to it (and they're right).

 

[Casper]

Merit-Based Immigration

(A) Sound Principle
(B ) Unsound Principle
(C) Other

Thoughts?

I said Other, Because while we do need to bring new talent in to the Nation, I also believe in giving others that have less skills but a want to better themselves in also, as were most of our ancestors were. Maybe a percentage of each would be best for all.

 

[tres borrachos]

Wouldn't the world be better off if the people with the most merit remained in their poophole countries and made them a little less crappy?

I am all for expanding immigration and having a less cumbersome immigration process, but there is an argument that we are poaching the people who would better benefit their homeland by staying put. Personally, I would aim to design a system that makes it much harder and longer to become a citizen or a PRA, but make it easier for those who are employed to come and go as they please for however long they can find work.

Not my call to decide where other adults should live.

 

[Lord of Planar]

While in theory it is a good idea... history has shown that "merit" can be defined in very different ways.. often racist ways.

Personally I like the idea ... got a job offer, then you can come. Got money to support yourself.. then you can come.. else forget it.

We actually have such a system and the merits are in place. That's one reason why illegal immigration is bad.

 

[Oborosen]

Sound principle, but it must be tempered with constraint.

Those we allow to become fellow citizens, should be equal citizens, and eventually have the ability to be reunited with their families & loved ones. America should never contemplate two classes of citizens.

Maybe we can run the current record with those that are already here, applying for citizenship?

A probationary period for those with minor infractions and no choice what so ever for those who are serious offenders?

 

[lefty louie]

You have to remember that the people are responsible for the government, at least in places with democratic elections, so if the government isn't doing what you want, it's on the shoulders of the voting public collectively to change it. If someone is running away because they live in a ****hole, whose fault is it that it got that way? If the people collectively want change, if they're willing to stand up and put their lives on the line to make those changes, why haven't things changed?

I get your point, but you're looking at things through rose colored glasses. Many "Democratic" govt's are not tolerant and will squash the loud mouth citizen that is still trying to work and support his/her family. You as an ordinary citizen are marked and easily dealt with, organizing the masses to back you proves rather difficult.

We can't get 60% of the people who vote to vote one way or another, drumming up support always proves hard when you have so many sheep.