Merit-Based Immigration (1 Viewer)

[Soopairik]

This does sound like a fair system to me.

 

[Fishking]

Merit-Based Immigration

(A) Sound Principle
(B ) Unsound Principle
(C) Other

Thoughts?

B

Currently it is unsound. We have an oversupply of labor, for the most part. This is why wages are stagnant. We shouldn't have any immigration at all until we start seeing wages increase. After some course correct then we look to see where we have the largest shortages that aren't being covered, then we open immigration up to fill those needs up to a certain point. So this could end up being skilled jobs, jobs that require high levels of education, low skill jobs. Who knows? But first we have to cut it all off and start measuring wages increases and identify shortages and gaps.

 

[iliveonramen]

So is your argument that someone, let’s say a black African from South Africa with English language and mathematical education and a verifiable lack of criminal record is inferior to an illiterate African from Zaire? Is an immigrant from Haiti fundementally superior to an immigrant from Argentina? I mean I asked how it would hurt the US to bring immigrants only from wealthier countries, that’s not a judgement on the worth of your friend from Haiti, but the way you phrased it you made it sound like it would be bad for America to take immigrants from wealthier nations versus poorer ones, is that your contention?

I didn't say anything about inferior or superior. I said there is a place from people from wealthy countries and a place for people from poorer countries. If you read my post my two biggest potential issues with a merit based system is that the merit based system is used to saturate specific job sectors for the benefit of corporations or that merit based is used to basically wipe out immigration from poorer nations.

 

[iliveonramen]

Merit:

a) fluent in the language of our country (i.e. English)
b) minimum possibility of committing a crime
c) minimum possibility of becoming a public burden
d) high probability of advancing the state of the art of science, engineering, medicine, or defense.


All 4 or no work visa.

How exactly do you determine D primarily for someone that is younger?

PS I competed with foreign engineers, why can our current set of snowflakes?

And software developers compete with foreign developers as well. What I'm talking about is targeting specific job sectors to flood specific labor markets using immigration laws.

 

[iliveonramen]

Why should Americans not have a government that represents their interests? Everyone else does.

What exactly have I mentioned that is against our interest? It may be evident to you but I don't see how what I listed as "merit" is against the interest of Americans.

 

[Rosie1]

You can't predict what people are going to do or become. The idea of merit based immigration, always makes me think of the high tech companies, hiring Indian and Pakistani computer analysts. They have even laid off older (higher salaried) citizen workers to hire them. I've personally seen this happen.

 

[Moderate Right]

Merit-Based Immigration

(A) Sound Principle
(B ) Unsound Principle
(C) Other

Thoughts?

I don't know what the exact definition of that is. I'm ok with anyone coming here legally who can be properly vetted and doesn't need the US government for support.

 

[Cephus]

The only people who should be able to come here are those that benefit America. If you're some poor shlub who has no skills, no education and nothing to offer, I don't care how much you want to be here, we have no need for you. Try again when you have something to benefit the country.

 

[phattonez]

What exactly have I mentioned that is against our interest? It may be evident to you but I don't see how what I listed as "merit" is against the interest of Americans.

You said that the opportunity that we've been given should be extended to others. You haven't made that case. Further, there's the practical limitation. Billions of people would want to come here. How much would America have to offer at that point? It would be completely tapped out. We can't fix the world by inviting the whole world here.

 

[iliveonramen]

You said that the opportunity that we've been given should be extended to others. You haven't made that case. Further, there's the practical limitation. Billions of people would want to come here. How much would America have to offer at that point? It would be completely tapped out. We can't fix the world by inviting the whole world here.

So brining over someone that wants to work, can work, but isn't a college grad is against the interest of America? Also, this applies to our capped immigration amounts so I'm not sure what billions of people wanting to live here has to do with anything.

I said that low skilled workers should be included in the mix of immigrants we let in. You must be arguing against someone else because most of the points you're bringing up weren't made by me.

 

[phattonez]

So brining over someone that wants to work, can work, but isn't a college grad is against the interest of America?

Yes, we already have a ton of Americans here with those qualifications who aren't working. If we had a higher labor force participation rate and higher wage growth I'd be more sympathetic, but right now we don't have the need.

Also, this applies to our capped immigration amounts so I'm not sure what billions of people wanting to live here has to do with anything.

How are we picking who comes here? Are we taking only the best of the best? Fine for us, but these poor countries are losing their best talent. How does that help those countries? Aren't we supposed to be helping out the poor? I hear that argument all the time when it comes to immigration. Shouldn't we want their best citizens to stay in those countries to help improve them?

I said that low skilled workers should be included in the mix of immigrants we let in. You must be arguing against someone else because most of the points you're bringing up weren't made by me.

How does bringing in low skilled workers help us? We already have a ton of low skilled Americans who can do these jobs and they aren't working. Why shouldn't those workers be helping their own countries?

 

[Sampson Simpson]

Yes, we want to import as many Doctors and Scientists as possible. Pass on sociologists though.

Yup, that's how we won WWII and the race to the atomic bomb, we took all of Germany's scientists. And we continue to bring in the brightest minds in the world to build new industries. Silicon Valley would be hurting without H1B visas that bring in the brilliant people from other countries. our secret weapon. And now we have idiots that want to discourage this. That's why China is kicking our ass and we continue to fall

How are so many people anti Science when it is that science that made AMerica great in the first place and leader of the world?

 

[iliveonramen]

Yes, we already have a ton of Americans here with those qualifications who aren't working. If we had a higher labor force participation rate and higher wage growth I'd be more sympathetic, but right now we don't have the need.

Labor force participation rate includes people that are not looking for work period. Retired, fulltime in school, stay at home homemaker etc. Our labor force participation rate isn't really a good gauge of people being able to find jobs or not. That's why the unemployment rates exists, to weed out people that aren't looking for work due to a myriad of reasons.

How are we picking who comes here? Are we taking only the best of the best? Fine for us, but these poor countries are losing their best talent. How does that help those countries? Aren't we supposed to be helping out the poor? I hear that argument all the time when it comes to immigration. Shouldn't we want their best citizens to stay in those countries to help improve them?

It doesn't help those countries. I though we were supposed to work in our best interest? Now you're making an argument not to take the best from poor countries because it would hurt those poor countries?

How does bringing in low skilled workers help us? We already have a ton of low skilled Americans who can do these jobs and they aren't working. Why shouldn't those workers be helping their own countries?

Most jobs opening up in the US are retail and low skilled jobs. Also, with the aging boomer population and lower birth rates immigration of young people is exactly what our country needs.

To see what a very strict immigration policy that doesn't meet the needs of it's economy looks like just look to Japan. They have an aging population, low birth rates, and are facing some long term structural issues.

 

[phattonez]

Labor force participation rate includes people that are not looking for work period. Retired, fulltime in school, stay at home homemaker etc. Our labor force participation rate isn't really a good gauge of people being able to find jobs or not. That's why the unemployment rates exists, to weed out people that aren't looking for work due to a myriad of reasons.

This is why I tend to use activity rate among males age 25-54. That's at a record low.

It doesn't help those countries. I though we were supposed to work in our best interest? Now you're making an argument not to take the best from poor countries because it would hurt those poor countries?

I'm showing that the argument that immigration defenders use about how it helps people doesn't work, because we can only help a tiny fraction of all of those who need help. The only argument left is that it helps our country, which isn't a very good argument at this point in time.

Most jobs opening up in the US are retail and low skilled jobs. Also, with the aging boomer population and lower birth rates immigration of young people is exactly what our country needs.

Again, record low activity rate among males age 25-54. And then there's this propaganda:

And then later we hear how we need immigration. Yes, how very convenient.

To see what a very strict immigration policy that doesn't meet the needs of it's economy looks like just look to Japan. They have an aging population, low birth rates, and are facing some long term structural issues.

And look at their crime rates. I agree that they ought to be more fertile, but they're not facing massive incarceration rates, failing schools, and high crime.

 

[Lursa]

How would we be worse off in such a scenario?

If it's based on merit, why does it matter where they come from?

 

[MrWonka]

Merit-Based Immigration

(A) Sound Principle
(B ) Unsound Principle
(C) Other

Thoughts?

Depends on what you consider having Merit. The immigration problems that we have in this country are a supply vs demand problem. The reality is that we have a really high demand for cheap labor in this country, and we can't fill it without bringing in a significant supply from other countries.

Now contrary to what most stupid Republicans think if we actually just had open borders this problem would naturally take care of itself. Immigrants would come here looking for jobs, and if they couldn't find any they would leave. And in fact if you look at migration statistics for the last few decades it shows that over the last decade while we've had some economic difficulties immigration from Mexico actually went negative for quite a while.

Nope, immigrants didn't just stick around trying to get free access to food stamps or welfare, they went back to Mexico because what they actually wanted in America was a job, and we didn't really have any available.

 

[phattonez]

Yup, that's how we won WWII and the race to the atomic bomb, we took all of Germany's scientists. And we continue to bring in the brightest minds in the world to build new industries. Silicon Valley would be hurting without H1B visas that bring in the brilliant people from other countries. our secret weapon. And now we have idiots that want to discourage this. That's why China is kicking our ass and we continue to fall

How are so many people anti Science when it is that science that made AMerica great in the first place and leader of the world?

More like our companies abuse the H1-B program so that they don't have to pay Americans a decent wage.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-02-01/leaked-executive-order-reveals-trumps-plans-h-1b-visas

 

[Lursa]

So brining over someone that wants to work, can work, but isn't a college grad is against the interest of America? .

We have no shortage of such citizens now, except plenty dont want to work. They choose welfare and other public assistance.

IMO you dont import unskilled people just because they are willing to work. It's a major failure of our socio-economic state, we should be focused on figuring out how to motivate these people to work, to develop a work ethic. We have the people. We just cant get them to contribute.

 

[phattonez]

We have no shortage of such citizens now, except plenty dont want to work. They choose welfare and other public assistance.

How often is that forced on them since the alternative pays so poorly? I'm fine with requiring work for welfare to help solve this problem (and it is a problem, I'm not trying to minimize this), but when you're competing with the 3rd world who will work for pennies, you're going to lose.

IMO you dont import unskilled people just because they are willing to work. It's a major failure of our socio-economic state, we should be focused on figuring out how to motivate these people to work, to develop a work ethic. We have the people. We just cant get them to contribute.

Stop letting companies getting away with leeching on 3rd world labor and enact work requirements for welfare.

 

[Lursa]

Depends on what you consider having Merit. The immigration problems that we have in this country are a supply vs demand problem. The reality is that we have a really high demand for cheap labor in this country, and we can't fill it without bringing in a significant supply from other countries.

We have the people...we need to figure out how to get them into the work force. Bringing in immigrants for that labor enables the citizens to continue to be a burden on society, rather than contributors.

 

[Lursa]

How often is that forced on them since the alternative pays so poorly? I'm fine with requiring work for welfare to help solve this problem (and it is a problem, I'm not trying to minimize this), but when you're competing with the 3rd world who will work for pennies, you're going to lose.



Stop letting companies getting away with leeching on 3rd world labor and enact work requirements for welfare.

You wrote it...the crack down on employers. And I would be happy to see more changes for welfare.

 

[phattonez]

You wrote it...the crack down on employers.

Absolutely. Ultimately I think that this will be more effective than the wall, especially if we're making sure that welfare offices are looking into who is here legally.

 

[Cephus]

If it's based on merit, why does it matter where they come from?

It doesn't. I don't care where the brightest minds come from. I only care that they are the brightest minds and not uneducated slobs trying to win an immigration lottery.

 

[phattonez]

It doesn't. I don't care where the brightest minds come from. I only care that they are the brightest minds and not uneducated slobs trying to win an immigration lottery.

I care if all of the "brightest minds," say, came solely from the Middle East. I'm can't defend importing people with a totally alien culture that isn't compatible with our way of life.

 

[Cephus]

I care if all of the "brightest minds," say, came solely from the Middle East. I'm can't defend importing people with a totally alien culture that isn't compatible with our way of life.

Seriously, is that likely? I also think that one of the criteria for coming here needs to be the ability to melt into the melting pot. No hypenated Americans need apply.