Mea Culpa, I was wrong.

[joluoto]

Maybe nobody was ever interested in it then ? The USA, the Ukraine, the UNSC, France, Germany

Russia was the ones that abandoned the Minsk agreement talks. They suddenly decided they were not actually part of the Minsk agreement, and that some treaty about Ukraine really had nothing to do with them. Basically one of the first provisions in the Minsk agreement said there should be elections in the Donetsk and Lukhansk "republics". And since Ukraine doesn't control said "republics" they couldn't arrange elections. And then the Russians just said "well neither do we, so not out problem, bye".

 

[mrjurrs]

To all who read this I was wrong.

I believed Putin was merely sabre rattling when he posted troops on the borders of Ukraine.

He has reportedly is moving "peacekeeping" troops into the newly declared "republics".

If so, I was wrong about that.

I still hope and believe that will be the end of it for now.

I had to look just to see who admitted to making a mistake! I appreciate the humility. Unfortunately, based on your last sentence, I'm afraid you'll have to post it again in a few days...

 

[Fledermaus]

I had to look just to see who admitted to making a mistake! I appreciate the humility. Unfortunately, based on your last sentence, I'm afraid you'll have to post it again in a few days...

Even at the far side of sixty I remain an optimist in most things tinged with a bit of being a realist.

I fervently hope this is the end of it. The realist side says it may not be.

Hope for the best. Plan for the worst.

 

[oneworld2]

Russia was the ones that abandoned the Minsk agreement talks. They suddenly decided they were not actually part of the Minsk agreement, and that some treaty about Ukraine really had nothing to do with them. Basically one of the first provisions in the Minsk agreement said there should be elections in the Donetsk and Lukhansk "republics". And since Ukraine doesn't control said "republics" they couldn't arrange elections. And then the Russians just said "well neither do we, so not out problem, bye".

I said there is much confusion/conflict over how to resolve the conflict by the way of Minsk 2 but to try to say that the Russians are or were the only ones hanstringing it or having no real interest in it is not accurate imo

Do you think these people could come to an agreement on what drinks should be supplied for the meetings ?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

The first edifice I noticed upon moving to Minneapolis in 1978 was the Ukrainian American Community Center.
They've moved into a much more modern facility in "Nordeast" (NE Mpls) but at the time it was in South Minneapolis.
I just wanted to practice something on a piano, hadn't been near one in a few months and I missed it, and the people in the hall
were cleaning up after an event.

First thing they asked was if I was Russian.
No, I'm Italian, I told them.
Go ahead and play until we're finished cleaning, then you have to leave because we're closing, they said.

No, it's not germaine to the larger thread but I can't forget that the first thing they wanted to know was if I was Russian.

 

[Fledermaus]

The first edifice I noticed upon moving to Minneapolis in 1978 was the Ukrainian American Community Center.
They've moved into a much more modern facility in "Nordeast" (NE Mpls) but at the time it was in South Minneapolis.
I just wanted to practice something on a piano, hadn't been near one in a few months and I missed it, and the people in the hall
were cleaning up after an event.

First thing they asked was if I was Russian.
No, I'm Italian, I told them.
Go ahead and play until we're finished cleaning, then you have to leave because we're closing, they said.

No, it's not germaine to the larger thread but I can't forget that the first thing they wanted to know was if I was Russian.

I worked with a women whose parents had come from Ukraine.

There was nothing but hatred when they spoke of the Soviets.

 

[Bucky]

Russia was the ones that abandoned the Minsk agreement talks. They suddenly decided they were not actually part of the Minsk agreement, and that some treaty about Ukraine really had nothing to do with them. Basically one of the first provisions in the Minsk agreement said there should be elections in the Donetsk and Lukhansk "republics". And since Ukraine doesn't control said "republics" they couldn't arrange elections. And then the Russians just said "well neither do we, so not out problem, bye".

Putin already won and outsmarted Biden and Boris Johnson.

Putin has proved that Ukraine has no real allies. Germany offered 500 helmets? LOL

He basically exposed Ukraine having a strong relationship with the West isn't really much of an alliance.

He truly is a brilliant tactician and leader. Either that or he is dealing with a bunch of idiots.

Boris Johnson - Clown
Joe Biden - Puppet
Zelenskyy - Failed Comedian

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I worked with a women whose parents had come from Ukraine.

There was nothing but hatred when they spoke of the Soviets.

Yeah, that's sorta kinda what I was getting at.
And it didn't register with stupid young and dumb me at the time!
I just realized it much much later.

PS: Takes guts and courage to do a mea culpa in an environment like this, kudos to you.
But then again, with much of that region being a crapshoot, I don't think anyone can be assured of ever being right on this
subject. It's so fluid and Putin is so mercurial, I don't think you have all that much to admit being wrong about.
I think you're just trying to be the optimist.

 

[joluoto]

Putin already won and outsmarted Biden and Boris Johnson.

Putin has proved that Ukraine has no real allies. Germany offered 500 helmets? LOL

He basically exposed Ukraine having a strong relationship with the West isn't really much of an alliance.

He truly is a brilliant tactician and leader. Either that or he is dealing with a bunch of idiots.

Boris Johnson - Clown
Joe Biden - Puppet
Zelenskyy - Failed Comedian

And now Nordstream 2 is dead and buried, and a new wave sanctions coming. Congrats to once again shooting yourself in the foot Putin.

 

[mrjurrs]

Even at the far side of sixty I remain an optimist in most things tinged with a bit of being a realist.

I fervently hope this is the end of it. The realist side says it may not be.

Hope for the best. Plan for the worst.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Bucky]

And now Nordstream 2 is dead and buried, and a new wave sanctions coming. Congrats to once again shooting yourself in the foot Putin.

They have other relationships

 

[Toggle Almendro]

Do you mean... never? Russia is too big and powerful to be put in that situation.

Russia has no ability to stop NATO from permanently stationing heavy forces (including long range offensive missiles) in Poland and Romania or in any other country in the eastern EU.

But the premise is wrong as it's not Russia invading or attacking other countries, it's the US:

That is incorrect. Russia is aggressively invading both Georgia and Ukraine.

The US will be nuked if it doesn't understand to back down.

That's OK. We will respond in kind with our own nuclear weapons. We are not going to back down.

The idea of Ukraine being something separate from the Russian people appeared around 1700. Same for Belarus. In reality they were political spin-offs, not different people with different cultures.
Ukraine first appeared as a state in 1918.
That's what Putin tried to explain.

Putin is lying again.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Kiev

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack_Hetmanate

 

[Peter King]

To all who read this I was wrong.

I believed Putin was merely sabre rattling when he posted troops on the borders of Ukraine.

He has reportedly is moving "peacekeeping" troops into the newly declared "republics".

If so, I was wrong about that.

I still hope and believe that will be the end of it for now.

Anybody who owns up to a mistake deserves a big frigging thumbs up

 

[NewfieMom]

No, it's not germaine to the larger thread but I can't forget that the first thing they wanted to know was if I was Russian.

Yes, well I was very startled once when a Greek Cypriot to whom I had just been introduced asked me if I liked Turks. At that point in my life I do not know if I had even met anyone from Turkey, but we all have our own life experiences.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Yes, well I was very startled once when a Greek Cypriot to whom I had just been introduced asked me if I liked Turks. At that point in my life I do not know if I had even met anyone from Turkey, but we all have our own life experiences.

At the time (early 1978) I was in my early twenties and my big thing was becoming a radio-TV engineer...I had some baseline political views but I confess
I was not all that well versed on the tensions in individual countries in Europe, especially Eastern Europe.
I just assumed Ukraine was Ukrainians and that was that.
I knew **** all about Russian speaking Ukrainian separatists or any of the whole magilla gorilla.

So I had no earthly idea why I was being asked if I was Russian, and aside from a couple of nods and chuckles, I was clueless.
It was a nice day out and I heard someone tinkling on a piano in the hall and I just missed playing music terribly.
It was a crazy thing to do, ask perfect strangers if I could jam on their piano, but they seemed okay with it, long as I wasn't Russian, I guess

 

[Peter King]

Do you mean... never? Russia is too big and powerful to be put in that situation.

Russia is nothing of we freeze the money of all the rich Russians and stop importing oil and gas, it will hurt us too but not nearly as much as it will Putin and Russia. His weak country is based on a reasonable army and oligarchs and their oil and gas.

But the premise is wrong as it's not Russia invading or attacking other countries, it's the US:

You do know we are talking about Ukraine, not other attacks because most countries the US attacks thoroughly deserved it.

The US has a lot of enemies: Russia, China, most of the Middle East(ordinary people, not unelected US puppets), large chunks of South America and East Asia.

Yeah, because Russia has no enemies. And FYI, do you think China is going to side with Russia besides some soothing words?

The US will be nuked if it doesn't understand to back down.

The US will be nuked, if Russia nukes the US it will be nuked into oblivion.

 

[beerftw]

Why was there an investment in Nord Stream? To bypass Ukraine, but the $$$ has been invested. Germany esp. has been investing in alternative fuels. I dunno.

IMO, let them (Europe) start re-negotiating with SA. THey were stupid and shortsighted...I knew years ago this Ukraine link was the weak point. I thought they (EU) did too, since they made major changes towards alternatives.

The reason for ns2 was to complement ns1, which was to have alternate routes. People think it is all some game to control oil flow to europe, russia already has a stranglehold on the market.

However ukraine has been the most troublesome, in the past oil was shut off through ukrainian pipelines usually because of ukrainian theft of oil, oil the ukrainians were already getting at or below cost from russia as part of a deal. Every time it happened before gas got rerouted supply delivered dropped and ukrain folded and paid for the gas they thought they were entitled to when they realized what russia was paying them was worth far more than the gas they stole.

There is always plans for russia to expand means to deliver, it is not just ukraine, they have looked at ways of bypassing other neighboring nations as well, to ensure their business does not get shut down if one of the host nations decides to shut down and refuse delivery. It is business pure and simple, russia could survive without selling any oil, but they sure as hell are happy doing so as it is a major source of income for them, and they really do not plan on putting all of their gas pipe eggs into a one volatile basket.

Edit most of europes oil and gas from russia comes through belarus, who has threatened to shut off oil, which the russians got pissed off at, and ukraine who has had transit shut off multiple times due to blatent theft of product. The other delivery systems are nord stream one and the one that reaches bulgaria, in this case it is easy to see russia is highly determined to create an alternative to their two wildcard nations that handle the bulk of their transit.

 

[beerftw]

No. The Vikings were a tiny minority mostly as traders.
Most people in the Kievan Rus were Eastern Slavs. That's why the Russian language is called Russian -> it was sponken by the people who lived in the Kievan Rus. The same for the name Russia.

East Slavs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

East Slavic languages - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are actually multiple slavic languages, usually decided by region, east ofcourse dictated ukrainian russian rusyn, belarusian etc, while other slavic nations like poland bulgaria hungary czech etc speak different dialects holding a similar structure yet far enough apart.

The vikings were actually prominent there, they were what helped kieven rus form, a union of slavic natives and vikings formed a culture still present to this day.

Russia does not even speak purely russia fyi, they also speak rusyn which is closer to a mix of ukrainian and finnish, as well as other native languages in the east, russian is just the official language, and most slavic nations speak russian as a primary or secondary language because it is close enough to work across the board and be used as universal, much the same in the middle east most of the region speaks arabic, but if it was broken down the middle east has hundreds of spoken languages, many tribal or regional or religious, but since islam was the primary religion and arabic was needed to speak it it became common everyone learned arabic and used it as the common language to bridge the gaps.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

However ukraine has been the most troublesome, in the past oil was shut off through ukrainian pipelines usually because of ukrainian theft of oil, oil the ukrainians were already getting at or below cost from russia as part of a deal. Every time it happened before gas got rerouted supply delivered dropped and ukrain folded and paid for the gas they thought they were entitled to when they realized what russia was paying them was worth far more than the gas they stole.

The reason why Ukraine took gas that was destined for other countries is because Russia shut off gas supplies to Ukraine to bully them when they did not do as Russia commanded them to do.

 

[XDU]

To all who read this I was wrong.

I believed Putin was merely sabre rattling when he posted troops on the borders of Ukraine.

He has reportedly is moving "peacekeeping" troops into the newly declared "republics".

If so, I was wrong about that.

I still hope and believe that will be the end of it for now.

Why would you ever believe he was just saber rattling? Mobilization is a real commitment. Failing to follow through would make a leader look unreliable to his own people and destroy his approval.

 

[beerftw]

I worked with a women whose parents had come from Ukraine.

There was nothing but hatred when they spoke of the Soviets.

That depends on the ukrainian, many of the eastern and southern ones liked russia and were fond of the soviet union or neutral on it, while the north around kiev and west absolutely hated russia and the soviet union.

First time I dealt with it was actually on an online video game with a ukrainian man going ballistic over being called russian, I will not go too much into detail but he called russians and soviets filth and subhuman who deserved to be put in ovens with the jews(this was back in 2003 btw)

So yeah western ukrainians do not hold the soviet union in high regard, heck they do not hold russians or bellorussians in high regard either.

 

[Linc]

This is about what the history books will say of Putin being the anti-Gorbachev.

 

[beerftw]

The reason why Ukraine took gas that was destined for other countries is because Russia shut off gas supplies to Ukraine to bully them when they did not do as Russia commanded them to do.

That is not true, the periods these thefts occured have been since the soviet union collapsed and before 2014, and even occured under pro russian leadership in ukraine.

Ukraine and belarus as well as other former soviet republics got special deals on gas, russia was rich with it and the former soviet republics were dirt poor. These deals were not going to last forever but were done as a way to keep the former republics from freezing to death in the winter by selling gas far below market value and sometimes cost to ensure they could afford it, while making up their lost revenue through sales to western europe.

Russia and ukraine have had constant disputes over price of transit and price of fuel, and in many cases ukraine even flat out admitted to stealing gas and reached a settlement with russia to pay off the theft, and in other cases ukraine ran up a tab they refused to pay(also theft but not quite in the same manner) which also ended up getting resolved, but not after much of the oil and gas to europe was cut short.

 

[Juin]

Bingo!

Putin knows that Biden is weak, and that only invited Russia to take this opportunity now, than wait for the political power to change back here in the USA, which every poll suggests is happening. A use it or lose it moment for Russia to exert some moves now which will result in more control over their short and long term REGIONAL economic energy needs.

My impression is that the Trump years were four loooooooooooon years for Putin. Putin would have died of frustration if Trump had won a second term. Look at Putin's jujitsu: 2014 the coup de main in Crimea, and the push into Donbass. Then the man had to sit four long Trump years. The man had to have been chompin at the bits when Senile Joe stepped into the White House. Who wouldnt? Putin immediately started moving his Armies from furthest Siberia to Ukraine.

Had Biden actually wanted to negotiate hard, he would have said NO annexing of any parts of the Ukraine under any circumstances, and in turn assured Russia that NATO was not going to attempt to expand to the Ukraine, put NATO bases closer to Russia, or deploy new missile systems there--while at the same time making it clear of our commitment to the Western alliance, and the security of Poland.

And in all likelihood Putin may have signed on that. I have, for the life of me, never been able to wrap my head around that Nato Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg's doctrine that a third party cannot veto a military alliance between two other parties. That is academic bullsh*t. Powerful countries have never tolerated their neighbours contracting alliances they deem hostile.

Putin is not a mad man, he is a typical Russian, and at least in that anyone who understands Russia would know how to deal with Russians.

The man is a son of b*tch but I grade him at least an A-. To take the decrepit Russia he inherited from Yeltsin to a power engaging in brinkmanship with Nato is no mean feat. Anyone who thinks Putin is an idiot is whistling past the grave yard. What some cannot absorb is that the man can be both distasteful and effective.