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Marine Corp Delays Pull-Up Requirement for Female Marines

MarineTpartier

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Didn't see this coming :roll: Female Marines have received ample time (over a year) to prepare for this test which, oh by the way, still isn't to the same standard that it is for males. Sure, they have to get the same bare minimum of 3 that males get. However, their max is 8 whereas mine is 20. So, on a maximum 300 point physical fitness test (PFT) where each of the 3 events (pull ups, crunches, 3 mile run) has the potential to give you 100 points, a female Marine only has to do 40% of the work I have to in order to get 100 points for her pull ups on her PFT. I call bogus. That enables her to be as competitive for promotion as me without having to do the work that I do. Not to mention that she can run her 3 miles in 21 minutes to receive 100 points for that while I have to run it in 18 minutes. If you've ever run a 5K, 3 minutes is an eternity between two runners.

Some of you will say "Well, that score is only part of what is looked at when considering promotion." I will submit this to you. Every promotion board for E-6, E-7, and E-8/E-9 (this board is conducted jointly) in the Marine Corps has an after action review written for it. In every one of those after action reviews, the board members are asked "What is the first tie breaker between two Marines if there is one spot left in their MOS field to promote?" The answer is ALWAYS "Their PFT score".

Now, some on this site will say that I am butt hurt because 3 females passed our infantry course. That is mentioned in the article. Not the case. When I know that 16 females began the course and only 3 passed, I'm not worried. Of the 16, 9 failed due to performance reasons. That leaves 7. Of those 7, 4 broke due to hip and knee problems. Those are the classic female breaking points that I've seen in most female injuries. Those occur very frequently at Parris Island as well. So, we have the 3 left. Now, for males, approximately 79% make it through infantry training. 10% of them are dropped for medical reasons. That leaves approximately 11% for performance/legal issues. For those of you who are Marines, it's the classic, always spoken of, 10% that fail. Also of note, the females were required to carry each other during casualty evacuation, movement courses, etc. So, a female weighing 110lbs-140lbs is carrying around her equivalent weight while the males are slinging whichever casualty they see over their shoulder. Again, I call bogus. I'm not a big fan of this social engineering crap. DADT was another issue. I wasn't a supporter of that. It wasn't performance based. A gay guy can fireman's carry a casualty just as effectively (though the casualty may be uncomfortable:2razz:) as a straight guy. But the vast majority of females cannot do the same. This is a performance thing for me. It is a logistical thing. It is a morale thing. Our military is the best in the world yet we want to mess with the very core of its competence. The members of it. I'm not a big fan.

Corps Delays Pull-Up Requirements for Female Marines | TIME.com
 

RabidAlpaca

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^^ This was really the only reason I opposed women in the infantry. The standards for women have always been a fraction of what they are for men, and now those substandard performers can make it into the infantry.

If you're a woman who wants to be in the infantry, you need to be prepared to pass the same physical and mental standards that the men do, plain and simple. A team is only as strong as their weakest link, and these 3 women seem to be those weak links.

And nevermind the fact that my wife isn't even in the military and she can do 6-7 GOOD pullups. (Crossfit freak)
 

MarineTpartier

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^^ This was really the only reason I opposed women in the infantry. The standards for women have always been a fraction of what they are for men, and now those substandard performers can make it into the infantry.

If you're a woman who wants to be in the infantry, you need to be prepared to pass the same physical and mental standards that the men do, plain and simple. A team is only as strong as their weakest link, and these 3 women seem to be those weak links.

And nevermind the fact that my wife isn't even in the military and she can do 6-7 GOOD pullups. (Crossfit freak)
Great points.
Further, imagine this scenario. Idk how the Army does this but the Marine Corps has meritorious promotions. Basically this is to recognize Marines that are younger than their peers (most of the time) but demonstrate that they are more proficient and have more potential than them. Therefore, these Marines are pushed forward of their peers for early promotion.
The conduct of these boards is pretty similar across the Corps. Each company submits a data sheet for their best E-3 and E-4 with those Marine's physical fitness test score, combat fitness test score (which is also skewed for females), rifle score, etc on it. After that, these Marines are subject to an oral board where there are 5 Marines (usually 4 E-8's and an E-9) that ask them various questions such as MC History, tactics, etc. This also tests their bearing because they are asked some questions that are way beyond their experience. This is just to see if they will flounder under pressure. One Marine or each rank is selected to represent the battalion at the Regimental board (or Brigade in Army lingo) and the best of those is selected for a meritorious promotion to the next rank.
Here's the scenario. Sure, a female, ON PAPER, looks like she is competitive with the males. She has a high physical and combat fitness test score. But when you dig into it, you see that she really performs at about a below average to average level with most grunts. Even the weakest infantry dudes are banging out 8-12 pullups. And those are the guys everyone else is looking at as the weakest link. Now, you've got some chick who is doing that same level of work and getting 100 friggin points for it. So when the companies start looking for meritorious promotion candidates they have to do one of two things 1) Send up a female who they know can't pull her own weight even though her scores make her competitive or 2) Don't send her up and risk being accused of discrimination. And believe you me, there will be some females that will accuse their leaders of that.

It just pisses me off that we are being put in this situation all in the name of equality. In a world where performance is supposed to be the lone factor in your consideration for advancement, equality is starting to take it's place. But only with one specific minority group. We aren't told to make exceptions for blacks/gays/hispanics/etc so that we can have more leaders representing those minorities. Only this one specific one. Friggin bullcrap.
 

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Great points.
Further, imagine this scenario. Idk how the Army does this but the Marine Corps has meritorious promotions. Basically this is to recognize Marines that are younger than their peers (most of the time) but demonstrate that they are more proficient and have more potential than them. Therefore, these Marines are pushed forward of their peers for early promotion.
The conduct of these boards is pretty similar across the Corps. Each company submits a data sheet for their best E-3 and E-4 with those Marine's physical fitness test score, combat fitness test score (which is also skewed for females), rifle score, etc on it. After that, these Marines are subject to an oral board where there are 5 Marines (usually 4 E-8's and an E-9) that ask them various questions such as MC History, tactics, etc. This also tests their bearing because they are asked some questions that are way beyond their experience. This is just to see if they will flounder under pressure. One Marine or each rank is selected to represent the battalion at the Regimental board (or Brigade in Army lingo) and the best of those is selected for a meritorious promotion to the next rank.
Here's the scenario. Sure, a female, ON PAPER, looks like she is competitive with the males. She has a high physical and combat fitness test score. But when you dig into it, you see that she really performs at about a below average to average level with most grunts. Even the weakest infantry dudes are banging out 8-12 pullups. And those are the guys everyone else is looking at as the weakest link. Now, you've got some chick who is doing that same level of work and getting 100 friggin points for it. So when the companies start looking for meritorious promotion candidates they have to do one of two things 1) Send up a female who they know can't pull her own weight even though her scores make her competitive or 2) Don't send her up and risk being accused of discrimination. And believe you me, there will be some females that will accuse their leaders of that.

It just pisses me off that we are being put in this situation all in the name of equality. In a world where performance is supposed to be the lone factor in your consideration for advancement, equality is starting to take it's place. But only with one specific minority group. We aren't told to make exceptions for blacks/gays/hispanics/etc so that we can have more leaders representing those minorities. Only this one specific one. Friggin bullcrap.

This is such a simple situation that they're making so complicated. It should be this simple: "Do you bitches want equality or not? You can't pick and choose what things you're equal in, it's all or nothing."
 

ItAin'tFree

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Didn't see this coming :roll: Female Marines have received ample time (over a year) to prepare for this test which, oh by the way, still isn't to the same standard that it is for males. Sure, they have to get the same bare minimum of 3 that males get. However, their max is 8 whereas mine is 20. So, on a maximum 300 point physical fitness test (PFT) where each of the 3 events (pull ups, crunches, 3 mile run) has the potential to give you 100 points, a female Marine only has to do 40% of the work I have to in order to get 100 points for her pull ups on her PFT. I call bogus. That enables her to be as competitive for promotion as me without having to do the work that I do. Not to mention that she can run her 3 miles in 21 minutes to receive 100 points for that while I have to run it in 18 minutes. If you've ever run a 5K, 3 minutes is an eternity between two runners.

Some of you will say "Well, that score is only part of what is looked at when considering promotion." I will submit this to you. Every promotion board for E-6, E-7, and E-8/E-9 (this board is conducted jointly) in the Marine Corps has an after action review written for it. In every one of those after action reviews, the board members are asked "What is the first tie breaker between two Marines if there is one spot left in their MOS field to promote?" The answer is ALWAYS "Their PFT score".

Now, some on this site will say that I am butt hurt because 3 females passed our infantry course. That is mentioned in the article. Not the case. When I know that 16 females began the course and only 3 passed, I'm not worried. Of the 16, 9 failed due to performance reasons. That leaves 7. Of those 7, 4 broke due to hip and knee problems. Those are the classic female breaking points that I've seen in most female injuries. Those occur very frequently at Parris Island as well. So, we have the 3 left. Now, for males, approximately 79% make it through infantry training. 10% of them are dropped for medical reasons. That leaves approximately 11% for performance/legal issues. For those of you who are Marines, it's the classic, always spoken of, 10% that fail. Also of note, the females were required to carry each other during casualty evacuation, movement courses, etc. So, a female weighing 110lbs-140lbs is carrying around her equivalent weight while the males are slinging whichever casualty they see over their shoulder. Again, I call bogus. I'm not a big fan of this social engineering crap. DADT was another issue. I wasn't a supporter of that. It wasn't performance based. A gay guy can fireman's carry a casualty just as effectively (though the casualty may be uncomfortable:2razz:) as a straight guy. But the vast majority of females cannot do the same. This is a performance thing for me. It is a logistical thing. It is a morale thing. Our military is the best in the world yet we want to mess with the very core of its competence. The members of it. I'm not a big fan.

Corps Delays Pull-Up Requirements for Female Marines | TIME.com

It won't be long before the MC drops the pull up requirement for males and females. Along with any other standard that stands in the way of female graduation. That way, when son's of mothers die in combat due to physically incapable combat leaders, nothing will point to a standard being waived or overlooked that caused or contributed to their deaths. This kind of crap has always puzzled me as why women would hate their son's so much, they would allow or support this type nonsense. And it's been happening for years but now it will be worse.

I would never voluntarily sign those papers again. It's hard enough fighting an enemy that is trying to kill you without having your own sides stupidity compounding the task at hand.
 

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How completely unsurprising.

...and yet still disappointing. Friggin Special Treatment amd protection strikes again.
 

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Some scream they want equality when, in fact, they don't so much.
 

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It won't be long before the MC drops the pull up requirement for males and females. Along with any other standard that stands in the way of female graduation. That way, when son's of mothers die in combat due to physically incapable combat leaders, nothing will point to a standard being waived or overlooked that caused or contributed to their deaths. This kind of crap has always puzzled me as why women would hate their son's so much, they would allow or support this type nonsense. And it's been happening for years but now it will be worse.

I would never voluntarily sign those papers again. It's hard enough fighting an enemy that is trying to kill you without having your own sides stupidity compounding the task at hand.

Sadly todays military is not the one I was in for 21 years. Political correctness has taken over...I would never enlist in this one.
 

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Sadly todays military is not the one I was in for 21 years. Political correctness has taken over...I would never enlist in this one.

Here we go again....Navy Pride bad mouthing the military.
 

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I don't mind the mixing of sexes into the military, but it shouldn't come at the cost of lowering standards. Anyone who can meet the established standards should be allowed to join; but you should have to meet the established standards.
 

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Women should absolutely be allowed to join the infantry ranks on an equal footing with men... which means the same physical requirements. I acknowledge that most females are biologically smaller with less upper body strength than males, but that doesn't discount the irrefutable fact that the job requires certain minimum physical accomplishments for safety reasons, and frankly just to have a fellow soldier's back. If she can't tote a 200 lb. man on her shoulders and get him to safety, then she simply shouldn't have the job. :shrug:
 

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Women should absolutely be allowed to join the infantry ranks on an equal footing with men... which means the same physical requirements. I acknowledge that most females are biologically smaller with less upper body strength than males, but that doesn't discount the irrefutable fact that the job requires certain minimum physical accomplishments for safety reasons, and frankly just to have a fellow soldier's back. If she can't tote a 200 lb. man on her shoulders and get him to safety, then she simply shouldn't have the job. :shrug:

That's how I feel too. If she can pass the basic training and standards, then why not? I see no reason to disallow just because it's a woman.
 

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Women should absolutely be allowed to join the infantry ranks on an equal footing with men... which means the same physical requirements. I acknowledge that most females are biologically smaller with less upper body strength than males, but that doesn't discount the irrefutable fact that the job requires certain minimum physical accomplishments for safety reasons, and frankly just to have a fellow soldier's back. If she can't tote a 200 lb. man on her shoulders and get him to safety, then she simply shouldn't have the job. :shrug:

I wholeheartedly agree. However, in practice....it never happens. Military leadership is constantly being called before Congress asking "why isn't there more of "whatever" in this program." Just like other inquiries, it generally results in lowering standards to produce more "diversity." Sadly, this one will reduce quality, without a question. These standards exist for a reason and the reduction of the standards will have a detrimental impact. Sadly, most politicians don't give a crap.
 

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He's right.

Sorry....but despite what you and NP say, we have the best military in the world and the men and women who defend this country deserve respect....not the badmouthing and moaning that you guys engage in.
 

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Sorry....but despite what you and NP say, we have the best military in the world and the men and women who defend this country deserve respect....not the badmouthing and moaning that you guys engage in.

No one badmouthed the troops. We're badmouthing the civilian leadership and general officers who are ****ing up the service. Had you ever served, you would understand, but since you hated the service too much to ever be a member of it, why don't you just keep your cowardly, uninformed, ignorant opinion to yourself.

It's so much more tolerable when Libbos just call us all baby-killers
 

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No one badmouthed the troops. We're badmouthing the civilian leadership and general officers who are ****ing up the service. Had you ever served, you would understand, but since you hated the service too much to ever be a member of it, why don't you just keep your cowardly, uninformed, ignorant opinion to yourself.

It's so much more tolerable when Libbos just call us all baby-killers

Sure you are. You and NP both constantly badmouth the military. "Of Course"...the military was OBVIOUSLY better back in the day...blah blah blah......typical rhetoric....nothing more....nothing less.
 

apdst

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Sure you are. You and NP both constantly badmouth the military. "Of Course"...the military was OBVIOUSLY better back in the day...blah blah blah......typical rhetoric....nothing more....nothing less.

How would you know? What unit were you in?
 

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How would you know? What unit were you in?

LOL.....falling back on your failed arguments again. Why don't you just stop bad mouthing the military. The men and women who serve today are every bit as good, if not better than those who served before them. They deserve our support and respect....not your blathering and bad mouthing them.
 

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Pull ups. :lamo

Yes, the next war will be decided by who is better with a battle ax. :roll:

Give me a statistic of who many enemy casualties we caused and we suffered in hand-to-hand unarmed combat in Afghanistan and Iraq, since it appears many believe that still determined the outcome of a battle?
 

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That's how I feel too. If she can pass the basic training and standards, then why not?

Because Combat is a Team Sport. Someone could be the strongest individual in the world, and if they detract from the ability of the team to operate as a team, they aren't a help, they are a hindrance.
 

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Pull ups. :lamo

Yes, the next war will be decided by who is better with a battle ax. :roll:

:roll: and then there are the people who have no idea what they are talking about, but don't let that stop them from trying to look smarter than everyone else.
 

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Sure you are. You and NP both constantly badmouth the military. "Of Course"...the military was OBVIOUSLY better back in the day...blah blah blah......typical rhetoric....nothing more....nothing less.

Yeah, it's been downhill ever since they started issuing rifles that use a cartridge. A REAL soldier doesn't use whimp-ass cartridges. A REAL soldier loads it all up himself. And if there is more than one enemy, he'll take out the rest with his combat knife. :lamo
 

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I'm just tired of the mentality of people like NP and Apbst who think that their generation was the only good one...and bad mouth and bemoan those who come after them as not being as good. The reality is....the men and women of the military today are every bit as good as those who served before them.
 

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Because Combat is a Team Sport. Someone could be the strongest individual in the world, and if they detract from the ability of the team to operate as a team, they aren't a help, they are a hindrance.

And how is she a hindrance if she can pass all the tests?
 
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