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Loyalty or Honour?

Loyalty or Honour?


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Le Marteau

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Hey all,

A very simple question, but a very difficult answer, I find.

There's no long backstory, just, simply, in your eyes, which is better, loyalty, or honour?

Honour is doing the right thing, no matter what.

Loyalty is supporting those you love, no matter what.

In a perfect world, one can be honourable and also loyal. But many times, this is not the case. So, which is the greater good, to you?
 

digsbe

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I accidentally voted loyalty by my definition. By your definition I would vote honor.
 

Hatuey

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Honor does not mean doing the right thing no matter what as what is right is subjective to your own standards of honor. What you're doing might be right but it won't be honorable. Example, I find it honorable to back one's friends in all reasonable matters. Doing other than that seems to me to be highly dishonorable. I believe standing by one's friends through thick and thin is honorable yet I would report my best friends to police officers if it involved an extreme circumstance. Let's say an extreme circumstance presents itself and I see a need to report my best friend to the police. Am I behaving honorably? No. But I am doing what is considering to be right by society. So what is right? Is it what society thinks is right? Or is it what we ourselves have decreed through our experiences to be right? Loyalty in turn is not supporting those you love no matter what. I'm loyal to my wife. Yet if I found out she was hiding bodies in our garage I'd just as easily report her to the police. This is because I would find her actions to be not only wrong but dishonorable.

En tout cas, neither is better than the other. A person that seeks to live an honorable life must question just how far their loyalties go. Is your loyalty blind? Or does it have boundaries which can be violated? Does your honor mean more to you than what is right or wrong? The answer is balance. Balance.
 
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Councilman

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Honor does not mean doing the right thing no matter what as what is right is subjective to your own standards of honor. What you're doing might be right but it won't be honorable. Example, I find it honorable to back one's friends in all reasonable matters. Doing other than that seems to me to be highly dishonorable. I believe standing by one's friends through thick and thin is honorable yet I would report my best friends to police officers if it involved an extreme circumstance. Let's say an extreme circumstance presents itself and I see a need to report my best friend to the police. Am I behaving honorably? No. But I am doing what is considering to be right by society. So what is right? Is it what society thinks is right? Or is it what we ourselves have decreed through our experiences to be right? Loyalty in turn is not supporting those you love no matter what. I'm loyal to my wife. Yet if I found out she was hiding bodies in our garage I'd just as easily report her to the police. This is because I would find her actions to be not only wrong but dishonorable.

En tout cas, neither is better than the other. A person that seeks to live an honorable life must question just how far their loyalties go. Is your loyalty blind? Or does it have boundaries which can be violated? Does your honor mean more to you than what is right or wrong? The answer is balance. Balance.

Very well thought out sensible post very good points.

spud_meister
Loyalty is honourable.

Yes it is, a agree, but as Hatuey so eloquently stated loyalty has it's limits.

Both good points.

I could not decide which is of most important so I did not vote. The topic is food for thought.
 

tacomancer

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By the definitions in the OP, I would choose honor every time.

Standing by your friends no matter what can actually be bad if your friends are wrong in their actions, opinions, or approach to something. It is better to do the right thing, even if it means you have to have a drug intervention for example.
 
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If I have to subvert conscience to keep a friend, that friend is no real friend of mine.
 

American

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Honor does not mean doing the right thing no matter what as what is right is subjective to your own standards of honor. What you're doing might be right but it won't be honorable. Example, I find it honorable to back one's friends in all reasonable matters. Doing other than that seems to me to be highly dishonorable. I believe standing by one's friends through thick and thin is honorable yet I would report my best friends to police officers if it involved an extreme circumstance. Let's say an extreme circumstance presents itself and I see a need to report my best friend to the police. Am I behaving honorably? No. But I am doing what is considering to be right by society. So what is right? Is it what society thinks is right? Or is it what we ourselves have decreed through our experiences to be right? Loyalty in turn is not supporting those you love no matter what. I'm loyal to my wife. Yet if I found out she was hiding bodies in our garage I'd just as easily report her to the police. This is because I would find her actions to be not only wrong but dishonorable.

En tout cas, neither is better than the other. A person that seeks to live an honorable life must question just how far their loyalties go. Is your loyalty blind? Or does it have boundaries which can be violated? Does your honor mean more to you than what is right or wrong? The answer is balance. Balance.

So basically, the poll is flawed.
 

Hatuey

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So basically, the poll is flawed.

No. You can still ask which one is better. I just don't believe one is better than the other. Do you?
 

MKULTRABOY

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Loyalty can be blind. It is much more 2 dimensional than honor IMHO.
 

MaggieD

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Hey all,

A very simple question, but a very difficult answer, I find.

There's no long backstory, just, simply, in your eyes, which is better, loyalty, or honour?

Honour is doing the right thing, no matter what.

Loyalty is supporting those you love, no matter what.

In a perfect world, one can be honourable and also loyal. But many times, this is not the case. So, which is the greater good, to you?

Honor in all things, imo. Very rarely is honor in conflict with loyalty.

In some of these painted scenerios, bodies in the garage, e.g., it is possible to act with honor and loyalty even then. Honor would require me to report my husband. Loyalty would require me to stand at his side as he faced the consequences of his actions.
 

Tucker Case

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The definitions of Honor and Loyalty in the OP are fictional definitions for these words. They don't mean those things.

The definition provided for Loyalty resembles a real definition but is not quite accurate, but the definition provided for "honor" doesn't even remotely resemble any actual definition for the word.

Using the real definitions of these words, it become impossible to answer the question because they are intertwined concepts.
 

MKULTRABOY

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Hrrm....

honor |ˈänər| ( Brit. honour)
noun
1 high respect; esteem : his portrait hangs in the place of honor.
• [in sing. ] a person or thing that brings credit : you are an honor to our profession.
• adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct : I must as a matter of honor avoid any taint of dishonesty.

loyalty |ˈloiəltē|
noun ( pl. -ties)
the quality of being loyal to someone or something : her loyalty to her husband of 34 years.
• (often loyalties) a strong feeling of support or allegiance : fights with in-laws are distressing because they cause divided loyalties.

ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: from French, via Old French loial from Latin legalis (see legal ).

...hrrmmm
 

tacomancer

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The definitions of Honor and Loyalty in the OP are fictional definitions for these words. They don't mean those things.

The definition provided for Loyalty resembles a real definition but is not quite accurate, but the definition provided for "honor" doesn't even remotely resemble any actual definition for the word.

Using the real definitions of these words, it become impossible to answer the question because they are intertwined concepts.

I have always seen the classic definition of honor to be more about pride than anything else. As in "you have insulted my honor sir, pistols at dawn?"
 

MKULTRABOY

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I have always seen the classic definition of honor to be more about pride than anything else. As in "you have insulted my honor sir, pistols at dawn?"

I see it as a code of conduct accessory to intuition and social...ness.
 

Tucker Case

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Hrrm....

honor |ˈänər| ( Brit. honour)
noun
1 high respect; esteem : his portrait hangs in the place of honor.
• [in sing. ] a person or thing that brings credit : you are an honor to our profession.
• adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct : I must as a matter of honor avoid any taint of dishonesty.

loyalty |ˈloiəltē|
noun ( pl. -ties)
the quality of being loyal to someone or something : her loyalty to her husband of 34 years.
• (often loyalties) a strong feeling of support or allegiance : fights with in-laws are distressing because they cause divided loyalties.

ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: from French, via Old French loial from Latin legalis (see legal ).

...hrrmmm

Those definitions don't include "no matter what" in them.

Plus the dictionaries I looked at did not include the third definition of "honor" that the one you are citing does, but, I stand corrected in that it does resemble a real definition.
 

Ned Racine

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There Is a Heavy Overlap in such a question. An Honorable Honest person can be utterly Loyal most of the time and a Loyal person is more often than not Honorable.

If you knew there was a Warrant for a Friend's Arrest issued - would you quietly contact him in advance about it even if you knew the charge was deserved. Personally I would, just so he'd be prepared - not be Blind sided , but others wouldn't OR wouldn't risk their Jobs if the matter was Emplyment related.
 

Le Marteau

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Hey all,

I understand that we all have differing ideas of what "honour" and "loyalty" mean and represent -- so, I suppose I should say, given those definitions, which do you choose? Or, even better, of those two concepts (because honour and loyalty are really just meaningless titles), which do you choose?

Furthermore, I agree, they can often overlap. But when the overlap ends, which do you choose?

To answer one post in specific, I think that there are, of course, situations in which loyalty can be good for the person you're loyal to, and bad for the person you're loyal to. I don't think anyone here is so blind as to think these terms are absolutes. But the example that one person posted, about a friend who needed a drug intervention -- come on. That's an easy one. That's too every-day, that's too forced. I'm talking about the rarity situations where you're forced to choose between the two terms -- a brother kills a man, and you agree that it was a just action, but it was also in cold blood, do you help him? Such situations, I find, are much harder to deal with.


However, to use another example, I admit that, were I to find bodies in our garage, I wouldn't report it to the police -- I'd help my wife get rid of them. But, also, if she were a drug addict, I'd not hesitate in getting her help, as opposed to "being loyal" and feeding her addiction. It's a gray line, of course, and it's blurry -- and perhaps it's not even a straight line. But I'm merely asking, in those situations that are really on the line, on the fence -- which concept, which trait, do you 'believe in' more?
 

Wiseone

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Loyalty, its easier to do, easier to define, and pays off more in the end.
 

Ned Racine

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Hey all,

I understand that we all have differing ideas of what "honour" and "loyalty" mean and represent -- so, I suppose I should say, given those definitions, which do you choose? Or, even better, of those two concepts (because honour and loyalty are really just meaningless titles), which do you choose?

Furthermore, I agree, they can often overlap. But when the overlap ends, which do you choose?

To answer one post in specific, I think that there are, of course, situations in which loyalty can be good for the person you're loyal to, and bad for the person you're loyal to. I don't think anyone here is so blind as to think these terms are absolutes. But the example that one person posted, about a friend who needed a drug intervention -- come on. That's an easy one. That's too every-day, that's too forced. I'm talking about the rarity situations where you're forced to choose between the two terms -- a brother kills a man, and you agree that it was a just action, but it was also in cold blood, do you help him? Such situations, I find, are much harder to deal with.


However, to use another example, I admit that, were I to find bodies in our garage, I wouldn't report it to the police -- I'd help my wife get rid of them. But, also, if she were a drug addict, I'd not hesitate in getting her help, as opposed to "being loyal" and feeding her addiction. It's a gray line, of course, and it's blurry -- and perhaps it's not even a straight line. But I'm merely asking, in those situations that are really on the line, on the fence -- which concept, which trait, do you 'believe in' more?



Your scenario is a little far out , but did jog my memory as to a situation I once encountered.

Without specifics I was once abandoned by a few after things got a little out of hand over some long running corporate personel moves and related resentments. I took the bullet after losing my temper once, and things went downhill for awhile after that.

The question I often raised was This: I would not have acted like they did , or at least would have maintained some discreet contact. Pay Phones if necessary. Wee Hour visits perhaps.I would have done such for anyone who might have blown it regardless of other factors. This includes Alcohol, substance abuse, Gambling , Embezzling, Sexual addiction or a combination of them all. If You were my Friend over a decade or more I don''t walk away , but I found out that some do.

On the other hand IF someone finds out their Friendly Coworker is John Wayne Gacey or the Green River Killer - Then Walking Away totally is justified. I think that should clarify things.
 
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