Louisiana moves to make abortion pills ‘controlled dangerous substances’

[ColdHardTruth]

I'd disagree, but the life of the mother is still significant and important, that's something people with a pure pro-life stance don't get.

I can respect that, but the choice must go to she who owns the body.,

 

[rational anarchist]

It's none of your business. For every unwanted or unaffordable unborn aborted, a woman or couple gets a better chance to progress thru their lives, caring for others, working, being loved, supporting other dependents, fulfilling their obligations to others, succeeding, failing, building, creating, contributing...what's all that called? Oh, it's called a life. Living every day...life.

You arent god, who are you to demand what those people must risk in their lives?

I can understand and sympathize with your frustration at not being able to convince somebody that something is true when its not,,,

the intentional killing of an innocent child is everyones business

 

[rational anarchist]

Killing children is illegal, in every state...see where your emotionally manipulative wording gets you? It shows you're wrong and driven by your feelings, not law or morality.

not if they are still in the womb,, most states still allow it

 

[rational anarchist]

You are proposing that personhood begin at conception, which is as I said before a philosophical question with no objective answer.

Nobody argues about when life begins. People are arguing about when personhood begins.

there you go moving the goal posts again,,

just so we are clear



at conception a child in the womb has a very unique DNA that sets it apart from their mother,,

you can put a pregnant mother in a meat grinder and then test to see which parts are the mother and which are the child,,

so a child in the womb is an individual and so is a person

 

[Nomad4Ever]

I'd disagree, but the life of the mother is still significant and important, that's something people with a pure pro-life stance don't get.

I'm pro-choice but I've always argued for it starting from the assumption that the fetus is a human life from conception.

I think the question of when that life becomes a person is interesting, but is a subjective and philosophical matter and my support for abortion has more to do with the reasons you mention than where anyone happens to draw their line for when the fetus becomes a person.

 

[rational anarchist]

I'm pro-choice but I've always argued for it starting from the assumption that the fetus is a human life from conception.

I think the question of when that life becomes a person is interesting, but is a subjective and philosophical matter and my support for abortion has more to do with the reasons you mention than where anyone happens to draw their line for when the fetus becomes a person.

according to the definition of person , it is an individual,, so at conception the child can be determined to be a different person than the mother and therefor a individual person,,

 

[Nomad4Ever]

there you go moving the goal posts again,,

just so we are clear

I'm not moving anything.

People are just inconsistent and/or imprecise with their language.

There is a distinction between life and person hood. You said earlier that scientifically life begins at conception. Nobody disagrees that a fetus is life. Literal germs are universally recognized as life. Hell, that's really the only alien life we are hoping to find when we go exploring our local solar system.

But when person hood begins is what people are actually arguing about. That cannot be scientifically determined and is entirely a subjective philosophical question.

 

[rational anarchist]

I'm not moving anything.

People are just inconsistent and/or imprecise with their language.

There is a distinction between life and person hood. You said earlier that scientifically life begins at conception. Nobody disagrees that a fetus is life. Literal germs are universally recognized as life. Hell, that's really the only alien life we are hoping to find when we go exploring our local solar system.

But when person hood begins is what people are actually arguing about. That cannot be scientifically determined and is entirely a subjective philosophical question.

we have a definition for what makes a person a person,,

have you looked that up yet??

the main discussion about abortion is when life begins,,

both happen at the same time,,

 

[Nomad4Ever]

the main discussion about abortion is when life begins,,

Respectfully, I am really struggling here to figure out how to dumb this down more.

Your skin cells, individually, are universally known and accepted as life. But they are not a person.

Is that helping at all? I'm really not even sure where to go from here.

we have a definition for what makes a person a person,,

have you looked that up yet??

We didn't find definitions etched in some eternal fabric of the universe by the gods. We just made them up. When someone becomes a person and what makes a person a person is actually entirely subjective and widely disagreed upon.

 

[Lursa]

according to the definition of person , it is an individual,, so at conception the child can be determined to be a different person than the mother and therefor a individual person,,

If you want laws that restrict or ban abortion, then you need to use the legal terms. Here you go:

U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant

(a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.

 

[rational anarchist]

Respectfully, I am really struggling here to figure out how to dumb this down more.

Your skin cells, individually, are universally known and accepted as life. But they are not a person.

Is that helping at all? I'm really not even sure where to go from here.


We didn't find definitions etched in some eternal fabric of the universe by the gods. We just made them up. When someone becomes a person and what makes a person a person is actually entirely subjective and widely disagreed upon.

can you explain that to where it makes sense??

we arent talking about skin cells,,

we are talking about a human child in their mothers womb with a unique DNA showing them to be a separate individual,,

 

[rational anarchist]

If you want laws that restrict or ban abortion, then you need to use the legal terms. Here you go:

U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant

(a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.

that covers it,,

a child in the womb is a separate human child with a unique DNA that shows them to be their own individual person separate from the mother,,

 

[Nomad4Ever]

can you explain that to where it makes sense??

we arent talking about skin cells,,

I used skin cells as an example because an individual skin cell is a life. It meets the scientific definition of what we understand a life to be.

I specifically brought up skin cells because I am trying to illustrate the difference between life and person hood.

we are talking about a human child in their mothers womb with a unique DNA showing them to be a separate individual,,

You realize each individual sperm has entirely unique DNA, different from all the others too right?

The point I am trying to get across is that when we determine something because a person is entirely subjective. You could say as you do that they become a person at conception, maybe because they have all the ingredients to become a human. You could say they become a person when their brain develops enough to become self aware. You could say they become a person after they are no longer dependent on their mother's body to survive. None of those answers are more right or wrong objectively than the others.

This distinction matters unless we want to be talking right past each other. Because each individual god damn sperm is a life, with its own unique DNA, that is born, lives, and dies. People are sloppy with language, but nobody disagrees that a fertilized egg is a life in the sense of "is that thing alive".

What people disagree on is when it becomes a human person. Because that's what we all care about, people. Personhood. Humanity. Nobody cares about life or they'd be castrating themselves so they don't kill millions of sperm lives every day.

 

[rational anarchist]

I used skin cells as an example because an individual skin cell is a life. It meets the scientific definition of what we understand a life to be.

I specifically brought up skin cells because I am trying to illustrate the difference between life and person hood.


You realize each individual sperm has entirely unique DNA, different from all the others too right?

The point I am trying to get across is that when we determine something because a person is entirely subjective. You could say as you do that they become a person at conception, maybe because they have all the ingredients to become a human. You could say they become a person when their brain develops enough to become self aware. You could say they become a person after they are no longer dependent on their mother's body to survive. None of those answers are more right or wrong objectively than the others.

This distinction matters unless we want to be talking right past each other. Because each individual god damn sperm is a life, with its own unique DNA, that is born, lives, and dies. People are sloppy with language, but nobody disagrees that a fertilized egg is a life in the sense of "is that thing alive".

What people disagree on is when it becomes a human person. Because that's what we all care about, people. Personhood. Humanity. Nobody cares about life or they'd be castrating themselves so they don't kill millions of sperm lives every day.

your premise is not just a lie but a piss poor one,,,

a person is not subjective unless youre trying to make excuses so you can kill them,,
kinda like dems did to justify slavery,,

a human child at conception has a unique DNA of their own that makes them an individual person,,

 

[Nomad4Ever]

your premise is not just a lie but a piss poor one,,,

It would be helpful if you specified which part you believed was a lie.

a human child at conception has a unique DNA of their own that makes them an individual person,,

Are sperm individual people? Each sperm has unique DNA.

 

[rational anarchist]

It would be helpful if you specified which part you believed was a lie.


Are sperm individual people? Each sperm has unique DNA.

I did in the next sentence,,,

your sperm question is just stupid,,

why is it the fed gov has made it illegal to destroy an eagle egg??

 

[Nomad4Ever]

I did in the next sentence,,,

a human child at conception has a unique DNA of their own that makes them an individual person,,

You do realize I don't disagree that they have unique DNA of their own or any other scientific reality of the situation right?

your sperm question is just stupid,,

If you think it is stupid then you just think your definition of individual person is stupid.

By your definition sperm are individual people. I was hoping seeing how ridiculous your definition is would help you understand why nobody defines human or person like that but I guess not.

Unless you can explain why sperm aren't individual people according to your own definition then all you are doing is calling your own definition stupid.

 

[rational anarchist]

You do realize I don't disagree that they have unique DNA of their own or any other scientific reality of the situation right?


If you think it is stupid then you just think your definition of individual person is stupid.

By your definition sperm are individual people. I was hoping seeing how ridiculous your definition is would help you understand why nobody defines human or person like that but I guess not.

Unless you can explain why sperm aren't individual people according to your own definition then all you are doing is calling your own definition stupid.

its not my definition of person,,

its merrian websters definition

sperm is one component that when combined with the mothers egg results in the conception of their child,, and that child is a unique individual person with their own DNA that can be distinguished from their mothers or anyone elses,,


so alone a sperm cell is just that,, and a stain on your sheets,,

 

[Nomad4Ever]

its not my definition of person,,

its merrian websters definition

sperm is one component that when combined with the mothers egg results in the conception of their child,, and that child is a unique individual person with their own DNA that can be distinguished from their mothers or anyone elses,,


so alone a sperm cell is just that,, and a stain on your sheets,,

A sperm cell is a life...with its own individual DNA different from the other sperm or its "father"...

That's just objectively true. What I'm saying isn't silly. It is scientifically correct.

Do you understand what I'm getting at yet?

 

[rational anarchist]

A sperm cell is a life...with its own individual DNA different from the other sperm or its "father"...

That's just objectively true. What I'm saying isn't silly. It is scientifically correct.

try again,,

Do you understand what I'm getting at yet?

HUH??

gonna have to see a link on that one,,,


So yes the sperm has DNA of the individual but only half of the normal cells. Half of it that is one of each chromosome rather than the two his normal diploid cells contain (including either an X or Y for the sex chromosomes).Jul 18, 2018

does sperm dna have the same as the man - Google Search

 

[beefheart]

thanks for your opinion,,

I will stick with scientific facts and reality,,

Hey, you are back with another name, how many is that now?

 

[Nomad4Ever]

try again,,

HUH??

gonna have to see a link on that one,,,

Results of the first study to sequence the genomes of individual sperm cells obtained from one person have revealed significant genetic differences between them, confirming the belief that each sperm is unique.

Every sperm is special, genome sequencing shows | PET

Results of the first study to sequence the genomes of individual sperm cells obtained from one person have revealed significant genetic differences between them, confirming the belief that each sperm is unique. It is hoped the technique could be applied in fertility treatments to identify...

www.progress.org.uk

 

[rational anarchist]

Hey, you are back with another name, how many is that now?

I have never been here before,,

got bumped from another site and this is all I could find to make fun of leftists and progressives,,

and even if I was how does that effect my arguments??
you can either refute them or you cant,,

 

[beefheart]

I have never been here before,,

got bumped from another site and this is all I could find to make fun of leftists and progressives,,

and even if I was how does that effect my arguments??
you can either refute them or you cant,,

Well, you haven't been in this thread before...

Yeah. were here before.

 

[j brown's body]

can you explain that to where it makes sense??

we arent talking about skin cells,,

we are talking about a human child in their mothers womb with a unique DNA showing them to be a separate individual,,

Your position simply isn't rational.

"The fetus only exists because of the woman's body -- not yours, not that of some possibly corrupt and stupid politician in Washington, and not the body of some possibly ignorant and venal politician in a state legislature. As I have watched this debate develop, and as I have considered with astonishment the increasingly byzantine efforts to " draw lines" about the point of viability, the time at which a full set of rights attaches to the fetus, and all the rest, I have become increasingly convinced that the right of the woman to control her own body when she is pregnant must be absolute up to the point of birth. All the attempts to craft legislation circumscribing that right prior to birth quickly become enmeshed in what are finally subjective claims that can be disputed into eternity, and impossible of proof in one direction or another.

...In terms of the political theory involved, the basic question is a stark and simple one: if you cannot control your own body, what other rights can you possibly have? If your body is not yours, what does it matter if you can freely express your political and religious convictions? The principle involved is similarly simple: as long as you are not violating anyone else's rights, your right to control your own body is absolute. Period. For the reason indicated above, the fetus is not a person in the same sense the mother is: the fetus would not exist but for the woman who carries it. The woman's right to her own body must, in fact and in logic, take precedence over whatever rights you believe the fetus possesses, up to the time of birth."

Link