Living off the grid

[Geo Patric]

I wonder how many of these people don't record their property deeds.

well, not many of the fols i was speaking of actually own deedable property.

geo.

 

[liblady]

I was talking to a contractor friend of mine about this. We were having a conversation about the burden of taxes, and I told him that it was not simply our right, but our duty to avoid paying taxes to a government that has usurped its authority. I know a lot of people think this way which is why we have a large underground economy that uses cash and barter only. He and I both barter our services whenever we can.

Then the conversation got into retirement and real estate taxes, and I told him the story of a guy I knew in Upstate NY who bought a big piece of land, harvested logs, cut them into lumber, dried them and then built his house. He stared with a field stone foundation and used whatever he could off the land. He applied for a permit to build it but since he used non-Code materials and methods the inspectors wouldn't give him a certificate of occupancy.

Normally this is a problem for a builder because you can't get insurance or refinancing, or even hook into public utilities on a house without a C of O. But in this case the owner never intended to get one, because that piece of paper also gets you on the tax roll. This was about 20 years ago and as far as I know the guy's been living in his house paying next to no taxes.

So my friend told me that's basically what he's planning to do for retirement. He's was planning to build a tiny little one bedroom, one bath house of the minimum dimensions and materials, get his C of O, say goodbye to the inspector then go to town with a renovation and addition. Make it all look like an old barn from the outside, then have some goats and cows roaming around.

For AC in the summer he'll use geothermal with creek water. Electrical will be by solar panels and a battery system. He's taken a course at APP State that describes just how to do this. A well for water and septic for waste. Compost all the garbage and recycle all the plastic, metal, glass, paper and cardboard. (Before I had kids I used to go to the dump twice a year so I know this is feasible.) A wood-fired water stove for heat and hot water. Internet for TV. Fuel oil back-up and distill bio diesel for the truck. He may need propane for the cook stove.

With this set-up he can be nearly off-grid. No water or sewer bill, no trash bill, no telephone land line, no Duke Power, no cable TV bill. The only bills will be minimal real estate tax and ISP, and an occasional fuel oil and propane drop.

that's just fine, as long as he doesn't expect the fire department to hose down his house if it ignites.

and what about reassessments? those happen all the time.

 

[Southern Man]

that's just fine, as long as he doesn't expect the fire department to hose down his house if it ignites.

and what about reassessments? those happen all the time.

Fire departments in rural areas are volunteer, don't have access to hydrants and due to the distances usually arrive to empty a 1000 gallon tank onto the ashes. That's why rural residents pay a premium on their home insurance policies.

Assessors don't go inside the house.

 

[Ahlevah]

well, not many of the fols i was speaking of actually own deedable property.

That's fine. I'm not quibbling with phone or water bills. The bone I'm picking is this:

I was talking to a contractor friend of mine about this. We were having a conversation about the burden of taxes, and I told him that it was not simply our right, but our duty to avoid paying taxes to a government that has usurped its authority.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how the gubment has usurped its authority, and why everyone in this society doesn't have a duty to pay a lawfully-enacted tax.

 

[Geo Patric]

well, yes... how can authority that became an authority by being selected by the people over whom they execute authority be said to have usurped it? i have made the same point numerous times. it is, at the risk of being ungenerous, just plain stupid.

like it or not, graduated tax IS from the able to the needful. more subtly, it is a form of compensation from those who take the most of what what is common to all and to those who take the least. taxation based on income is at least slightly socialist.

geo.

 

[Southern Man]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how the gubment has usurped its authority, and why everyone in this society doesn't have a duty to pay a lawfully-enacted tax.

The have gone well beyond their Constitutionally mandated authority. Look at a list of federal agencies and compare that to Article I Section 8.

 

[Geo Patric]

The have gone well beyond their Constitutionally mandated authority. Look at a list of federal agencies and compare that to Article I Section 8.

you might as well have said that they have sinned.

how about YOU tell us how they have exceeded their authority. then we can consider the view and respond.

geo.

 

[Southern Man]

you might as well have said that they have sinned.

how about YOU tell us how they have exceeded their authority. then we can consider the view and respond.

geo.

OK Let's take the first on on the uber-long federal list of agencies: Administration for Children and Families (ACF)

Its mission statement:

The Administration for Children and Families (ACF), within the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) is responsible for federal programs that promote the economic and social well-being of families, children, individuals, and communities.

A pleasant-sounding goal, but tell me where that is authorized by the Constitution.

 

[drz-400]

The have gone well beyond their Constitutionally mandated authority. Look at a list of federal agencies and compare that to Article I Section 8.

That would be controversial. However, I would like to see how you can possibly justify your actions, ie. "utilizing the underground economy," simply on the grounds of fair play.

 

[Deuce]

OK Let's take the first on on the uber-long federal list of agencies: Administration for Children and Families (ACF)

Its mission statement:



A pleasant-sounding goal, but tell me where that is authorized by the Constitution.

General Welfare statement. I know, you personally consider that list to be an exclusive list, but I disagree and SCOTUS is on my side. So I offer this counterpoint: Find me where the US Air Force is authorized constitutionally.

 

[Geo Patric]

thanks, deuce for saving me the time... i am late for school.

geo.

 

[Southern Man]

That would be controversial. However, I would like to see how you can possibly justify your actions, ie. "utilizing the underground economy," simply on the grounds of fair play.

What comes around goes around.

 

[hazlnut]

Question: At some point you'll need to drive into town to buy more diesel fuel to run your generators or purchase other goods etc. Whey you're driving on public roads, you'll essentially be freeloading. Will you be sending us a check for that?


And, unless you're planning on stealing the TV signal, you're Direct TV bill will be taxed by the feds -- Gotcha!

 

[Southern Man]

General Welfare statement. I know, you personally consider that list to be an exclusive list, but I disagree and SCOTUS is on my side. So I offer this counterpoint: Find me where the US Air Force is authorized constitutionally.

SCOTUS has been found wrong before; they are hardly infallible. Especially since FDR packed it with progressives.

The Air Force used to be part of the Army. The Feds should have gone through the Amendment Process prior to making it a separate agency.

 

[Southern Man]

Question: At some point you'll need to drive into town to buy more diesel fuel to run your generators or purchase other goods etc. Whey you're driving on public roads, you'll essentially be freeloading. Will you be sending us a check for that?


And, unless you're planning on stealing the TV signal, you're Direct TV bill will be taxed by the feds -- Gotcha!

No, since the fuel is delivered for utility use, allowing me to avoid the motor vehicle fuel tax. This same fuel will then be pumped from my home tank to my on-rad vehicle, allowing me to offset the taxes paid through my satellite bill. :mrgreen:

 

[Deuce]

SCOTUS has been found wrong before; they are hardly infallible. Especially since FDR packed it with progressives.

The Air Force used to be part of the Army. The Feds should have gone through the Amendment Process prior to making it a separate agency.

They didn't. Also, they are only given the authority to regulate land and naval forces, so if it were somehow wrapped into "armies" Congress couldn't make rules for them.

So am I correct in that your argument is we should disband the government agencies not covered by the enumerated powers, including the USAF?

No, since the fuel is delivered for utility use, allowing me to avoid the motor vehicle fuel tax. This same fuel will then be pumped from my home tank to my on-rad vehicle, allowing me to offset the taxes paid through my satellite bill. :mrgreen:

You'll still be defended by MY military. Pay up.

 

[Southern Man]

So am I correct in that your argument is we should disband the government agencies not covered by the enumerated powers, including the USAF?



You'll still be defended by MY military. Pay up.

Yes we should eliminate these agencies. In order to ween people off the government teet, this should be done over a ten year period. That will also give plenty of time to process amendments to save agencies that are actually useful and wanted by a super majority.

I've already paid more then my fair share of federal taxes, so no, I'll avoid paying more.

 

[Ahlevah]

The have gone well beyond their Constitutionally mandated authority. Look at a list of federal agencies and compare that to Article I Section 8.

First of all, it's not surprising that you don't find a list of Executive Branch agencies in Article 1, since that article concerns the role of the Legislative Branch. Anyway, I'll bet if I did some digging I could find plenty of federal offices or agencies established by Congress when the Founders were still alive and kicking that aren't listed anywhere in the Constitution. For example, where did the Constitution grant the gubment the authority to create a Department of the Interior and Office of Indian Affairs to regulate Indians and steal their land? They sure didn't vote for it. It seems to me that if anyone has a right to bitch about anything it's Indians.

 

[Goof Noodle]

Why is it BS? Because you got lucky? Is it BS that these services are available IF people need them?



So, when some self-reliant yahoo trips over his shotgun and shoots himself in the groin, who's going to do the surgery? Cousin Fred? Or if he falls off his boat in a drunken stupor and needs to get his lungs pumped, where is he going to get emergency medical treatment? Aunt Martha's? Most of us dependent suckers would go to a county or community hospital emergency room supported by property taxes.



I took this out for you. Never said we shouldn't pay property taxes. Make something else up would you?



Anyone else see an irony here?

Sorry, nothing lucky about common sense. People who are self-reliant tend to plan ahead in case a liberal hypothetical what if happens. Anyways, I did say that he would be paying sales and property taxes above right? Your government education is to blame for that. Also, sales and property taxes should be plenty to cover the cost of any government needs that is fiscally responsible. What is unconstitutional is the taxes we pay so the moochers can stay home and eat lobster. Remind me again, where in the constitution does it say that Pelosi gets $100,000 in boozes on her private jet? Don't our taxes pay for that?

 

[Deuce]

First of all, it's not surprising that you don't find a list of Executive Branch agencies in Article 1, since that article concerns the role of the Legislative Branch. Anyway, I'll bet if I did some digging I could find plenty of federal offices or agencies established by Congress when the Founders were still alive and kicking that aren't listed anywhere in the Constitution. For example, where did the Constitution grant the gubment the authority to create a Department of the Interior and Office of Indian Affairs to regulate Indians and steal their land? They sure didn't vote for it. It seems to me that if anyone has a right to bitch about anything it's Indians.

Few people take into consideration the ramifications of going strictly with the list as provided in Art. 1 Section 8. People just don't realize how much better these various agencies have made their lives because they take this quality of life for granted. The kind of person who think OSHA is government overstepping its bounds should try working as a coal miner in 1880.

 

[lizzie]

Question: At some point you'll need to drive into town to buy more diesel fuel to run your generators or purchase other goods etc. Whey you're driving on public roads, you'll essentially be freeloading. Will you be sending us a check for that?

When all the social welfare freeloaders start sending in checks, you might have a legitimate point.

 

[drz-400]

When all the social welfare freeloaders start sending in checks, you might have a legitimate point.

So you feel two wrongs make a right? Will freeloaders be justified as long as there are tax evaders?

 

[drz-400]

What comes around goes around.

So if the IRS busts you for tax evasion they would be justified? I thought your opinion was they had already usurped their power to begin with.

 

[Ahlevah]

I took this out for you. Never said we shouldn't pay property taxes. Make something else up would you?

I didn't make up anything. I specifically asked you what tax you were referring to. However, since the OP referred to his friend disguising his home so that it looked like a barn in order to fool the tax collector, and I then responded by saying that I thought this was unethical, I thought that that might be what you were referring to. So let me reiterate: I think what the OP's friend advocated is not only unethical but fraudulent.

People who are self-reliant tend to plan ahead in case a liberal hypothetical what if happens.

I'll bet liberals aren't the only people who call the fire department or have emergency surgery at a county hospital. No matter how well they plan, even people who voted for Ron Paul have accidents.

Anyways, I did say that he would be paying sales and property taxes above right? Your government education is to blame for that.

:shock::shock::shock::shock:​

 

[Southern Man]

So if the IRS busts you for tax evasion they would be justified? I thought your opinion was they had already usurped their power to begin with.

No, I'm justified in evading taxes since Congress has usurped its authority and I've already paid more than my fair share.