Likud Minister Uses IDF Murderer To Bolster Campaign

[oneworld2]

It is a picture of the Palestinian's making.

Itamar: Baby's Throat Slashed

Report: Initial Probe of Friday night massacre in Itamar shows terrorists stabbed 3-year old in the heart and slashed 3-month old baby's throat.
Itamar: Baby's Throat Slashed - Israel National News

Between 22:20 and 22:30 the terrorists entered the house through the living room picture window, did not notice the 6-year-old boy sleeping on the couch and continued on to the bedroom where they slashed the throats of the father and newborn baby who were sleeping there. The mother came out of the bathroom and was stabbed on its threshold. The evidence shows that she tried to fight the terrorists.

They then slashed the throat of the 11-year old-son who was reading in bed. They did not notice the 2-year old asleep in his bed, but murdered the 3-year old with two stabs to his heart. After that, they locked the door, exited through the window and escaped.

Exactly two hours after the infiltration, there was another warning signal from the same spot on the fence, as the terrorists left the way they had come. Once again, the patrol did not identify the source of the signal as infiltration.

These are your "freedom fighters"

So we should judge and condemn all Palestinians on the acts of these monsters ?

You are one of the posters I referred to earlier that wants the above to be the case

You were the poster that endorsed those pictures put up here recently of Hamas operatives with children seemingly dressed for battle with accompanying texts such as " Palestinian family values " in a revealing display of your true but deliberately obscured view of Palestinians

And I will say to you now what I said to you then.

We can all refer to and describe extreme and monstrous acts in a bid to use them as a blanket smear to degrade and besmirch the whole group/ethnicity/race etc but only the true racists tend to do it imo. In fact it is a strong indicator of the racist mind so thanks for dropping your guard again

BTW They are not my freedom fighters. They are criminals and pretty deranged ones too. Just like those Jewish folk that burned to death that Palestinian boy in Jerusalem . Only I don't use their actions to tar all Israeli Jews as monsters. I don't see a Baruch Goldstein in every Jewish person. That's where we differ because I am not a racist.

 

[Apocalypse]

I am saying it is a moral inalienable right that there is no international law that bars armed resistance to foreign military occupation. That you wish to contest this view will put you in a absolute miniscule minority.

There are easy barometers to measure just how universal the support is or not

Let's have everyone here state whether or not their country folk should have the right to resist a foreign military invasion and subsequent military occupation of their territory

In fact you have repeatedly cited Israelis right to defend themselves and their territory from those seeking to invade or curtail Israeli self determination so you have already supported this position yourself countless times already but now seek to deny it to the Palestinians in as obvious a show of extreme bias as is possible to achieve . Once again it is yourself and your comments that serve to show you up for the hypocrite and extremist you evidently are

So you changed your "there is a right to murder soldiers who enforce a military occupation" claim to "there's a moral right".

It's good to know that you're so willing to manipulate the term 'right' with its important meaning to serve your awful belief that innocents should be murdered.

As to morality, as I already said, not all military occupations are automatically unjustified. This one is righteous, it exists as long as a terror threat exists, and the right to life, which is an actual right, is the basis for its existence.

 

[Apocalypse]

Hilarious and desperate , again.

I compared UK government payments to those UK citizens and/or relatives injured or killed in conflict to those on the Palestinian side who you routinely and inaccurately tar as all being " terrorists ".

Your compulsion to misrepresent in order to smear being your only talent imo

The PA pays money to terrorists based on the severity of their act of terror.
The UK soldiers aren't terrorists.
You haven't just been comparing payments, you were comparing the soldiers of a civilized country to terrorists, hardly for the first time.

 

[oneworld2]

What is the definition of Terrorism?

Here is one: "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

Is it unlawful? Yes. Is it violence? Yes. Is it in pursuit of political aims? Yes.

The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives"

The UN: Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them.

UN Security Council: criminal acts, including against civilians, committed with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury, or taking of hostages, with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act, which constitute offences within the scope of and as defined in the international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism, are under no circumstances justifiable by considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other similar nature.

Cite the law that states it is illegal for the people living under a foreign military occupation to resist and/or attack the forces of the occupying army.

So you need to answer the question/point I put forward earlier.

If your country was invaded and subsequently occupied by the military of a foreign power would attacks on those troops by your own people be terrorist attacks ?

 

[oneworld2]

The PA pays money to terrorists based on the severity of their act of terror.

Explain/cite

The UK soldiers aren't terrorists.

I'm pretty sure some people on the receiving end of their activities might consider them the agents of state terrorism but regardless I still never stated they were terrorists. But it is obvious that you feel/think that EVERY action carried out by Palestinians against their occupiers is terrorism. The overriding theme being Palestinian action= terrorist action in a classic bid to demonize them and exonerate Israeli actions against them

You haven't just been comparing payments, you were comparing the soldiers of a civilized country to terrorists, hardly for the first time.

You prove all of my points again in the above. Extremism , misrepresentation , racism

 

[ido_]

Well that's the picture many people seem to only want to see. You know , Palestinians being something akin to a human sub species dogged by a natural inclination to violence/barbarism , unable to offer anything else. Colours many posts here from many posters too.

You pick one act possibly to usher people to think that this is the typical example of payments made to Palestinians killed, injured , imprisoned as a result of actions related to the conflict by the PA. Don't get me wrong I think a payment to a person that does such a heinous thing is totally abhorrent and I would not support it but acts like that must account for a pretty miniscule percentage of the whole. Those paid out include everything from those injured/killed whilst stone throwing through to those in administrative detention for political activism . And for these types of " crimes " I see little difference to the payments given to Westerners for those injured or killed in conflicts

its not one act, its only one example.

I didnt say anything about Palestinians being sub human or babaric.

and you didnt answer the question, would your government pay a soldier who sliced the througt of a sleeping baby?

all you seem to be doing with your mumbo jumbo is reasoning this

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

 

[Fledermaus]

Cite the law that states it is illegal for the people living under a foreign military occupation to resist and/or attack the forces of the occupying army.

You need a specific law addressing terrorism?

Really?

TERRORIST ACTS BAD....

 

[oneworld2]

So you changed your "there is a right to murder soldiers who enforce a military occupation" claim to "there's a moral right".

Recall I have been consistent and you haven't. There is no change . I said they had a right to resist including armed conflict and it was you that mentioned " legal " rights. Same question to you seeing as you claim it must , somehow , be illegal for those under a foreign military occupation to attack and/or kill their oppressors in a bid to free themselves from it. Under what law are they prevented from doing so ?

It's good to know that you're so willing to manipulate the term 'right' with its important meaning to serve your awful belief that innocents should be murdered.

There is no manipulation of the term. I say they have an inalienable right to resist foreign military occupation that denies the right to self determination like everyone else has. But just like in the text below you only wish to apply it , in a classic display of racism , to your own people

As to morality, as I already said, not all military occupations are automatically unjustified. This one is righteous, it exists as long as a terror threat exists, and the right to life, which is an actual right, is the basis for its existence.

They have the same rights but you just don't think they do or that yours trump theirs. Again , classic racism

 

[oneworld2]

You need a specific law addressing terrorism?

Really?

TERRORIST ACTS BAD....

Dodge some more

Show the law that prevents a people under foreign military occupation the right to resist/overthrow that occupation in order to gain self determination ?

Easy enough question following on from the other one you avoided which I will repeat and you will try to avoid again

If your country was invaded and subsequently occupied by the military of a foreign power would attacks on those troops by your own people be terrorist attacks ?

Easy enough question , why are you so scared to answer it ?

 

[ido_]

BTW They are not my freedom fighters. They are criminals and pretty deranged ones too. Just like those Jewish folk that burned to death that Palestinian boy in Jerusalem . Only I don't use their actions to tar all Israeli Jews as monsters. I don't see a Baruch Goldstein in every Jewish person. That's where we differ because I am not a racist.

Of course not because we condeme these acts, arrest these men and lock them in prison for life, and we dont give their family a pension for their "heroic" actions

You keep hijacking this discussion to "all palestinians" or "all israelis". Its obvious there are many good Palestinian people. Its also obvious that there are more than enough Palestinians who are homicidal maniacs, much to blame for their government's policies. Paying a pension to them is one of the policies, incitement against jews in the education system is another.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

 

[Fledermaus]

Explain/cite

Benefits paid

The funding system pays regular stipends to imprisoned individuals and to the surviving families of deceased individuals.[11][12][15] The agencies that disburse the funds employ over 500 bureaucrats.[11] Funds are dispersed via separate agencies, one for families of prisoners and the other for the general population.[3] Both agencies are "PLO institutions," but they are both funded by the PA.[16]

According to a report by Yossi Kuperwasser, of the Israeli advocacy group Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, in 2017 half of the $693 million that the PA receives as foreign aid, $345 million, was paid out as stipends to convicted terrorists and their families.[17] Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, repeated this claim in a speech to AIPAC in 2018. According to the Washington Post's fact checking, the $350 million figure requires a broad brush classifying all recipients as terrorist; and the picture regarding funding is considered fuzzy because Palestinian budget lines combine terrorist and non-terrorist funding and primarily since the definition of a terrorist is disputed.[18]

The Washington Post’s analysis showed that in 2017, $160 million was paid to 13,000 beneficiaries of “prisoner payments” ($12,307 per person) and $183 million was paid to 33,700 families in about in “martyr payments” ($5,430 per family), of which:[18]

$36 million is estimated to be paid to prisoners serving sentences of >20 years
$10 million is paid to former members of the security forces
$1 million is estimated to be paid to families of the 200 suicide bombers
$10 million is paid to the families of the Palestinians with life terms, lengthy sentences and in the security forces

 

[Fledermaus]

Dodge some more

Show the law that prevents a people under foreign military occupation the right to resist/overthrow that occupation in order to gain self determination ?

Easy enough question following on from the other one you avoided which I will repeat and you will try to avoid again

If your country was invaded and subsequently occupied by the military of a foreign power would attacks on those troops by your own people be terrorist attacks ?

Easy enough question , why are you so scared to answer it ?

Terrorism is as terrorism does....

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&q=laws+against+terrorism

 

[Evilroddy]

What is the definition of Terrorism?

Here is one: "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

Is it unlawful? Yes. Is it violence? Yes. Is it in pursuit of political aims? Yes.

The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives"

The UN: Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them.

UN Security Council: criminal acts, including against civilians, committed with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury, or taking of hostages, with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act, which constitute offences within the scope of and as defined in the international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism, are under no circumstances justifiable by considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other similar nature.

Fledermaus:

Your three definitions perfectly describe the actions of the IDF when they are "mowing the grass" in Gaza and kill hundreds or thousands of Palestinian civilians including unarmed women, children and elderly. Those three definitions also perfectly describe the actions of US SOF in Yemen and Syria (where the US cannot claim to be at war as the AUMF does not apply to ISIS or Yemeni tribespeople) when they kill women, children and the elderly either directly or by indirectly by calling in supporting fire on civilian targets like villages or walled residential compounds. Worse still is the "canoeing" of the skulls of the killed combatants which is designed to terrorise other would-be enemies into non-resistence and surrender to US policy.

Usually such definitions purposefully exclude states and their agents in uniform from such actions to immunise states from being prosecuted for common terrorism (as opposed to state terrorism) but no such caveats appear in your cited definitions. As special forces often operate in indigenous garb they are not so protected and are de facto and de jure terrorists and assassins.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[Fledermaus]

Fledermaus:

Your three definitions perfectly describe the actions of the IDF when they are "mowing the grass" in Gaza and kill hundreds or thousands of Palestinian civilians including unarmed women, children and elderly. Those three definitions also perfectly describe the actions of US SOF in Yemen and Syria (where the US cannot claim to be at war as the AUMF does not apply to ISIS or Yemeni tribespeople) when they kill women, children and the elderly either directly or by indirectly by calling in supporting fire on civilian targets like villages or walled residential compounds. Worse still is the "canoeing" of the skulls of the killed combatants which is designed to terrorise other would-be enemies into non-resistence and surrender to US policy.

Usually such definitions purposefully exclude states and their agents in uniform from such actions to immunise states from being prosecuted for common terrorism (as opposed to state terrorism) but no such caveats appear in your cited definitions. As special forces often operate in indigenous garb they are not so protected and are de facto and de jure terrorists and assassins.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Last time I checked the "thousands" of Palestinians died most recently during the last time Israel responded to repeated attacks upon their civilian population.

Are you stating a nation cannot defend their citizenry?

Thousands of mortar and rocket attacks. Incursion, kidnapping, fire bombings, etc.

 

[Apocalypse]

Recall I have been consistent and you haven't. There is no change . I said they had a right to resist including armed conflict and it was you that mentioned " legal " rights. Same question to you seeing as you claim it must , somehow , be illegal for those under a foreign military occupation to attack and/or kill their oppressors in a bid to free themselves from it. Under what law are they prevented from doing so ?



There is no manipulation of the term. I say they have an inalienable right to resist foreign military occupation that denies the right to self determination like everyone else has. But just like in the text below you only wish to apply it , in a classic display of racism , to your own people



They have the same rights but you just don't think they do or that yours trump theirs. Again , classic racism

You said they have "a right" to murder innocents, thus implied it was a right, not a "moral right" which is your way of saying that you think murdering innocents is moral.

Spare me the projection of your Jew hatred. I'm not saying anything about a right that only Jews have. Everyone has the right to self-defense, Israel is practicing it, this isn't mutually exclusive as surprising as it must be to you.

 

[Apocalypse]

Explain/cite



I'm pretty sure some people on the receiving end of their activities might consider them the agents of state terrorism but regardless I still never stated they were terrorists. But it is obvious that you feel/think that EVERY action carried out by Palestinians against their occupiers is terrorism. The overriding theme being Palestinian action= terrorist action in a classic bid to demonize them and exonerate Israeli actions against them



You prove all of my points again in the above. Extremism , misrepresentation , racism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

Also I see Fledermaus has done the necesssary reference as well.

Your comparison between UK troops serving their country and defending it and actual terrorists is as sickening as always, there's nothing more to add on that part, you clearly insist on demonstrating why every moral person must oppose you.

 

[oneworld2]

its not one act, its only one example.

So let's be more exact then. The act referred to accounts for what percentage of ALL acts carried out by Palestinians against Israelis ?

I didnt say anything about Palestinians being sub human or babaric.

By referring to the most extreme of cases that probably accounts for less than a tenth of a percent of all acts of violence and now trying to , imo , make out that this is "only one example" ( presumably of many acts like this one ? ) you are using that act to tar the whole group. You are not on your own here but are putting petrol on the flames for others to exploit the fire imo

and you didnt answer the question, would your government pay a soldier who sliced the througt of a sleeping baby?

No. But recall the OP of this thread that stated how the ongoing conflict/violence , it was claimed , is degrading the people on both sides. And although if any payments were made to these scumbags it can hardly be claimed that these were the very people they had or have in mind for the payment system . I gave something of a list ( ignored ) earlier that covered what I would say is the vast majority of cases , cases that are nothing at all like the one singled out here and in keeping with a national liberation struggle,

And it only underscores my point that , according to some surveys , only 2/3rds of Palestinians condemned the attack as abhorrent and an act that has anything that could be justified as part of their struggle

all you seem to be doing with your mumbo jumbo is reasoning this

Well you would say that wouldn't you ? It's what you do. You take the most extreme example and falsely claim it is supported by someone in order to start a smear campaign. It's already been going on here so you are just joining the usual suspects and thus will be held with the same contempt by me as they are. Old tactics done to death here , same as it ever was

 

[oneworld2]

Benefits paid

The funding system pays regular stipends to imprisoned individuals and to the surviving families of deceased individuals.[11][12][15] The agencies that disburse the funds employ over 500 bureaucrats.[11] Funds are dispersed via separate agencies, one for families of prisoners and the other for the general population.[3] Both agencies are "PLO institutions," but they are both funded by the PA.[16]

According to a report by Yossi Kuperwasser, of the Israeli advocacy group Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, in 2017 half of the $693 million that the PA receives as foreign aid, $345 million, was paid out as stipends to convicted terrorists and their families.[17] Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, repeated this claim in a speech to AIPAC in 2018. According to the Washington Post's fact checking, the $350 million figure requires a broad brush classifying all recipients as terrorist; and the picture regarding funding is considered fuzzy because Palestinian budget lines combine terrorist and non-terrorist funding and primarily since the definition of a terrorist is disputed.[18]

The Washington Post’s analysis showed that in 2017, $160 million was paid to 13,000 beneficiaries of “prisoner payments” ($12,307 per person) and $183 million was paid to 33,700 families in about in “martyr payments” ($5,430 per family), of which:[18]

$36 million is estimated to be paid to prisoners serving sentences of >20 years
$10 million is paid to former members of the security forces
$1 million is estimated to be paid to families of the 200 suicide bombers
$10 million is paid to the families of the Palestinians with life terms, lengthy sentences and in the security forces

Your own cited article points to the fact that the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs regards ALL recipients as " terrorists" and highlights that this is evidently disputed. That qualifier being wasted on people like yourself who think the exact same way as the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. An obviously deeply biased and bigoted position imho

Suicide bombings are a weapon used by those with little else to fight back with imo. But even so if they are directed at the forces of an occupying army , should be seen as an indiscriminate weapon ( a crime ) not unlike the IDFs use of indiscriminate weapons that they claim target Palestinian combatants but take the lives of many none combatants ( also often a crime )

What you choose to ignore from what you read is more enlightening as what you try to direct peoples attention to

 

[oneworld2]

Terrorism is as terrorism does....

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&q=laws+against+terrorism

Your weak response addresses nothing of the question put to you. ( actually put to someone else and you have jumped in on ).

So , we can try again

Show the law that prevents a people under foreign military occupation the right to resist/overthrow that occupation in order to gain self determination ?


And while we are at it you might not want to be seen avoiding the other two contained in that post


If your country was invaded and subsequently occupied by the military of a foreign power would attacks on those troops by your own people be terrorist attacks ?

Easy enough question , why are you so scared to answer it ?

 

[oneworld2]

Are you stating a nation cannot defend their citizenry?

That's exactly what you are claiming with regards to the Palestinians. As a people , with an internationally recognized territory currently under a foreign military occupation/blockade that is denying them their right to self determination.

You wouldn't accept yourself or for your own people but to defend those that force it on another people .

 

[oneworld2]

You said they have "a right" to murder innocents, thus implied it was a right, not a "moral right" which is your way of saying that you think murdering innocents is moral.

Spare me the projection of your Jew hatred. I'm not saying anything about a right that only Jews have. Everyone has the right to self-defense, Israel is practicing it, this isn't mutually exclusive as surprising as it must be to you.

Show the law that prevents a people under foreign military occupation the right to resist/overthrow that occupation in order to gain self determination ? Moral , legal , any kind

 

[oneworld2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund

Also I see Fledermaus has done the necesssary reference as well.

Your comparison between UK troops serving their country and defending it and actual terrorists is as sickening as always, there's nothing more to add on that part, you clearly insist on demonstrating why every moral person must oppose you.

He ran to wiki and avoided the parts of the content he cited that undermined his case

You can and will applaud it but it is a completely hollow endorsement imo

Not all actions of the Palestinians are terrorism and not all combatants are terrorists. Inconvenient for you for sure but true nonetheless

 

[uptower]

Yaron Mazuz is an idiot, but you need to set your fscts straight. and what is the point of this thread? there are much more outrageous politicians than him in Israel.

What facts did he get wrong? The politician shook hands with a convicted killer.

As for 'more outrageous politicians,' that's is a deflection (whataboutism). This thread is about one politician.

 

[oneworld2]

Of course not because we condeme these acts, arrest these men and lock them in prison for life, and we dont give their family a pension for their "heroic" actions

You keep hijacking this discussion to "all palestinians" or "all israelis". Its obvious there are many good Palestinian people. Its also obvious that there are more than enough Palestinians who are homicidal maniacs, much to blame for their government's policies. Paying a pension to them is one of the policies, incitement against jews in the education system is another.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

Many Palestinians condemned the actions of Hakim Awad and co and the Israelis jailed them as is the situation in such circumstances. Some Palestinians defended/supported the actions of these deranged killers just like some Jewish people support the likes of Baruch Goldstein and Azaria's actions. As I said in the OP , the conflict is and has had a degrading effect on both sets of people

I haven't claimed anything against "all palestinians" or "all israelis" that's just your attempt at spin imo. There are people who are managing to hang on to their humanity in difficult times on both sides but the ongoing violence only serves to silence their more moderate approach/proclamations and plays into the hands of the extremists on both sides. Some of your own governments policies are also abhorrent and Jewish people are not free from their own psychopaths , same as any other grouping

An Israeli army officer who fired the entire magazine of his automatic rifle into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl and then said he would have done the same even if she had been three years old was acquitted on all charges by a military court yesterday.

The soldier, who has only been identified as "Captain R", was charged with relatively minor offences for the killing of Iman al-Hams who was shot 17 times as she ventured near an Israeli army post near Rafah refugee camp in Gaza a year ago.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

Do you think this man's actions will cost him his future IDF benefits ?

 

[oneworld2]

What facts did he get wrong? The politician shook hands with a convicted killer.

As for 'more outrageous politicians,' that's is a deflection (whataboutism). This thread is about one politician.

The man turned out to be a junior minister , I said he was a minister............ I know what you might be thinking and I thought the same thing but that's the bones of it seeing as you enquired