Libya town clings to memory of Kadhafi ( killed 10/20/2011

[anatta]

Great "argument" there, annata. Keep cheerleading an evil dictator if you must, but at the very least do not complain about "poo-flinging" elsewhere if you're going to throw actual personal insults around.

Gaddafi was evil. Evil should not be defended. It's that simple.

good and evil is simplistic - it's not even relevant. do you understand realpolitik?
Do we go around overthrowing regimes because they are evil? ( shade of Reagans "evil empire"

I insulted you for insulting me with simplistic "Trumpists" -so i threw back a "simplistic" moronic ( i specifically made this point in parenthesis)

your comments are on this thread lack depth and perspective.. No insult -but the world is shades of grey

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Gaddafi was a serial rapist and mass murderer who killed numerous Americans, and who spent his last years calling for “jihad” against Switzerland and for the country to be carved up.

It’s a good thing we stopped him too, because the Amazonian guard was only hours from seizing Zurich.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Interesting how you are convinced there were no atrocities committed be Government forces...

Amnesty International disagrees.

And who is this "we"?

Libyan killing Libyan... Smacks of post invasion Iraq.

Amnesty international is a left wing extremist organization. They include just executions of serial killers as an “atrocity” their judgment really cannot be trusted. They’re so idealistic with pie in the sky ideas that they would never be able to govern any society based on their childish ideas

 

[Fledermaus]

lol. I hope you didnt actually spend money on Cojean's pulp fiction..

I suggest you read some of the links I posted about the quality of life under Qaddafi.
ranked 5th in all of Africa
He built the Great Man Made River for ex, while NATO bombed the pipes in storage claiming some farce about a weapons dump

there was a shortage of water in Tripoli, and residents drilled thru the concrete to get water from the pipes
After Qaddafi the country was run by feudal "militas" ( militia rule)
The horrors of the last ten year would fill a book - real data- and not salacious trash

Tripoli residents drill through pavements in desperate bid for water

Workers turned off the mains to do urgent maintenance — then an armed group sabotaged the system

www.independent.co.uk

The water crisis is a powerful symbol of state failure in a country that was once one of the wealthiest in the Middle East but has been gripped by turmoil since a 2011 uprising unseated Muammar Gaddafi.
For Libyans the chaos has meant power cuts and crippling cash shortages. These are often made worse by battles between armed groups vying for control of the fractured oil-rich state and its poorly-maintained infrastructure.

A rapist who had things built...

Sooooooooooo much better.

 

[anatta]

Amnesty international is a left wing extremist organization. They include just executions of serial killers as an “atrocity” their judgment really cannot be trusted. They’re so idealistic with pie in the sky ideas that they would never be able to govern any society based on their childish ideas

Human Rights Watch, also investigated the charge of Viagra rape= "no evidence"
Susan Rice ( who pushed these lies) now in the Biden adm - top advisor

 

[Fledermaus]

You call it nonsense and then harp on dictator/non-dictator..the "answer" is Mu (Buddhist)
~~
"Mu" may be used similarly to "N/A" or "not applicable," a term often used to indicate the question cannot be answered because the conditions of the question do not match the reality.
~~
there are no dictators vying for power in Libya now. there isnt even a unified government,
and the scheduled upcoming presidential elections dont seem to be making much headway

Still no answer from you.

Do you believe that Libyans are not capable of thriving without a dictatorship?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Still no answer from you.

Do you believe that Libyans are not capable of thriving without a dictatorship?

Whether or not they are in theory is irrelevant, they have not shown themselves capable of thriving without a competent strongman as of present

 

[anatta]

A rapist who had things built...
Sooooooooooo much better.

to get back to something relevant. that is not why we overthrew Qaddafi. I wont even dispute the comment -the source is pulp fiction.

I've noticed the constant deflection from those who defend R2P ( responsibility to protect) because the war was built on lies
of Qaddafi bombing civilians. Hillary was typical "we came we saw he died" and that was the end of it for her and NATO

the last 10 years have been hell on earth for Libya, but the interventionists dont care about their destruction of Libya
"Qaddafi was evil" is enough

 

[anatta]

Still no answer from you.

Do you believe that Libyans are not capable of thriving without a dictatorship?

I already answered. Mu = as in this is not relevant; and a "dictator" is not in the cards

 

[anatta]

Whether or not they are in theory is irrelevant, they have not shown themselves capable of thriving without a competent strongman as of present

really? how is Libya supposed to put itself back together from a complete unraveling of their security, economy and single government?
10 years of civil war aggrevated by regional powers doesn't lend itself to a "thriving" state

 

[OrphanSlug]

Libya, yet another disaster of a subject getting continually worse.

The truth of the matter is Gaddafi is nothing to speak positively of, ruled in the most cruel and aristocratic manner, and involved himself in way too many events around the globe suggesting nothing of value.

However he was toppled with no real plan, another "NATO backed" effort, and the nation devolved into chaos.

No unified government, no stability anywhere from city to rural, complete lack of security, no real international relations of value, despite being an oil producer there are wide spread goods and services shortages ironically and including fuel, but worse than all of that... an uptick in terrorism growth ever since the lack of planning overthrow of Gaddafi's rule.

Certain places probably want Gaddafi's type of rule because there is nothing else. Some of these areas are under damn near tribal level and harsh rule with no real means to basic survival let alone social and economic function.

It is just not that simple to look at it from some western interpretation of better off without Gaddafi, in some cases it is clearly worse and there is no humanitarian means to do much about it.

Trump or Trumpism is almost irrelevant to this discussion, but this is also not some light switch argument for or against Gaddafi either. To reduce it to that distinction is intentionally being dishonest about what really happened to Libya.

NATO needed a better plan than aiding just whoever stepped up to the plate with no real vetting and no real assurance of new government functionality or survivability, and you think we would have learned that lesson given the messes we've left behind all over the greater Middle East region.

But hell no, you guys keep arguing as if this is a simple pro or against Gaddafi in complete ignorance of the nation, the people in it, or the issues of that area of the world we seemingly made worse.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Libya, yet another disaster of a subject getting continually worse.

The truth of the matter is Gaddafi is nothing to speak positively of, ruled in the most cruel and aristocratic manner, and involved himself in way too many events around the globe suggesting nothing of value.

However he was toppled with no real plan, another "NATO backed" effort, and the nation devolved into chaos.

No unified government, no stability anywhere from city to rural, complete lack of security, no real international relations of value, despite being an oil producer there are wide spread goods and services shortages ironically and including fuel, but worse than all of that... an uptick in terrorism growth ever since the lack of planning overthrow of Gaddafi's rule.

Certain places probably want Gaddafi's type of rule because there is nothing else. Some of these areas are under damn near tribal level and harsh rule with no real means to basic survival let alone social and economic function.

It is just not that simple to look at it from some western interpretation of better off without Gaddafi, in some cases it is clearly worse and there is no humanitarian means to do much about it.

Trump or Trumpism is almost irrelevant to this discussion, but this is also not some light switch argument for or against Gaddafi either. To reduce it to that distinction is intentionally being dishonest about what really happened to Libya.

NATO needed a better plan than aiding just whoever stepped up to the plate with no real vetting and no real assurance of new government functionality or survivability, and you think we would have learned that lesson given the messes we've left behind all over the greater Middle East region.

But hell no, you guys keep arguing as if this is a simple pro or against Gaddafi in complete ignorance of the nation, the people in it, or the issues of that area of the world we seemingly made worse.

It turned out Globohomo doesn’t know how to govern a society that still actually believes in humanity and not unfettered personal license.

 

[Fledermaus]

I already answered. Mu = as in this is not relevant; and a "dictator" is not in the cards

You answered cowardly.

 

[Fledermaus]

to get back to something relevant. that is not why we overthrew Qaddafi. I wont even dispute the comment -the source is pulp fiction.

I've noticed the constant deflection from those who defend R2P ( responsibility to protect) because the war was built on lies
of Qaddafi bombing civilians. Hillary was typical "we came we saw he died" and that was the end of it for her and NATO

the last 10 years have been hell on earth for Libya, but the interventionists dont care about their destruction of Libya
"Qaddafi was evil" is enough

"We" who overthrew Gaddafi?

 

[OrphanSlug]

It turned out Globohomo doesn’t know how to govern a society that still actually believes in humanity and not unfettered personal license.

Which has nothing at all to do with my post, at all.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Which has nothing at all to do with my post, at all.

No, that’s the simple one liner way of condensing what you wrote.

You wrote a bunch of fancy stuff, when it’s enough to say our ruling class is incompetent and doesn’t know anything about the world outside their bubble

 

[OrphanSlug]

No, that’s the simple one liner way of condensing what you wrote.

You wrote a bunch of fancy stuff, when it’s enough to say our ruling class is incompetent and doesn’t know anything about the world outside their bubble

Only for those too out of their depth to discuss the matter in realistic terms.

But tell yourself whatever you need to.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Only for those too out of their depth to discuss the matter in realistic terms.

But tell yourself whatever you need to.

Yes that is the most realistic term possible,

Globohomo, the ruling elite, is incompetent. We used to be able to install puppet rulers who knew what they were doing. Not anymore.

 

[anatta]

"We" who overthrew Gaddafi?

why do you post such? NATO -excluding Germany- as well as Russia would not bomb.. "m'kay" ?

 

[AmNat]

many in Bani Walid are sceptical, seeing more hope in the old regime than in the country's current political forces.

"The reason this town is so attached to the former regime is that the 2011 revolution brought nothing but wars, catastrophe, division of the country and violations of its sovereignty," said engineer Fethi al-Ahmar.

"We still cling to the past because back then we had security, which is the main thing that's missing in Libya today."

Libya town clings to memory of Kadhafi

A huge portrait of Moamer Kadhafi marks the entrance of Bani Walid: 10 chaotic years since the Libyan dictator's death, residents of the desert town still hanker for his rule.

www.yahoo.com

It's an absolute crime what Obama and his cronies did to Libya. A stable, reasonably well off country turned into one of the worst on Earth.

 

[anatta]

You answered cowardly.

Mu Koan : The student asks the Buddhist master "Does a dog have a Buddhist nature?"
The master grunts out "Mu" in response, and hits the student with his walking stick

 

[anatta]

It's an absolute crime what Obama and his cronies did to Libya. A stable, reasonably well off country turned into one of the worst on Earth.

Libya - United States Department of State

www.state.gov

During the reporting period, there were continued reports that criminal networks, militia groups, government officials, and private employers exploited migrants, refugees, and asylum-seekers in sex and labor trafficking. Endemic corruption and militias’ influence over government ministries contributed to the GNA’s inability to effectively address trafficking.

 

[anatta]

NATO needed a better plan than aiding just whoever stepped up to the plate with no real vetting and no real assurance of new government functionality or survivability, and you think we would have learned that lesson given the messes we've left behind all over the greater Middle East region.

But hell no, you guys keep arguing as if this is a simple pro or against Gaddafi in complete ignorance of the nation, the people in it, or the issues of that area of the world we seemingly made worse.

Obama called it "kinetic military action" when pressed if US/NATO were at war . Obama blamed Cameron for not following up
(nation building in essence) -but gladly let Hillary have her way. Hilary was the global organizer as the WIKILEAKS email show.
Busy. will post later

 

[Fledermaus]

Mu Koan : The student asks the Buddhist master "Does a dog have a Buddhist nature?"
The master grunts out "Mu" in response, and hits the student with his walking stick

So what?

That doesn't answer the question.

 

[Tigerace117]

It’s a good thing we stopped him too, because the Amazonian guard was only hours from seizing Zurich.

Nah, it’s more likely he’d blow up a couple hundred more unarmed civilians on an airliner in between rapes. Much more his style.