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Liberals' Utopia will never be realized (fortunately) Here's Why...

They are largely wrong.
Most, if not all, corporations get large by government privilege.
Almost every single example of a monopoly, or near monopoly, in history has been because of government privilege and preference.
.

No, that's not true. The biggest monopolies were mostly before the government started busting monopolies up- standard oil, bell telephone, etc.
Economies of scale totally overwhelm that.

Lot of debate on that very issue.

I'd like to politely challenge both of you prove your assertions, namely that monopolies or oppressive corporations are or are not a result of gov't privilege, with suitable sources and information, as opposed to simply disagreeing on the subject.
 
Right off the top the guy is proven to be irrational and wrong in his analysis

Original Sin
Original sin is in the bible as part of the Genesis myth. For it to be an actual reason for why Utopia can never be reached it would mean the literal version of Genesis would have to be true. As that is not the case the entire reason for his arguement falls apart


If you have a wasp up your butt about the term Original Sin, then call it human nature, baser instincts, or human corruptibility if you wish. The point remains that humans are not perfectable, therefore utopia is not achieveable. Argue against that statement if you wish.
 
Lot of debate on that very issue.

I'd like to politely challenge both of you prove your assertions, namely that monopolies or oppressive corporations are or are not a result of gov't privilege, with suitable sources and information, as opposed to simply disagreeing on the subject.

Lets start with the Pacific Railway Acts.
It gave land grants to railroad companies, so they would build railroads throughout the continental U.S.
That eventually gave them 1/10 of the total land in the U.S.

Pacific Railway Acts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Later with Standard Oil.
Standard Oil created a partnership with the Railroad companies to prevent other oil competitors from crossing property owned by the railroad companies, effectively eliminating their ability to compete on any level.

Standard Oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Bells were given a regional monopoly.
It was granted by the government.

Bell System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
One of the main problems I have with the Democrat party is their further-left-elements seem to be in charge too much of the time; the party leadership is often much further left than the average party member.

I strongly disagree with this. Clinton, for example, was substantially to the right of the average Democrat. He kicked 3/4 of the people on welfare off of it, he dropped the capital gains tax by a shocking 10%, he reduced regulation in a lot of sectors, etc. Economically he was actually quite conservative. Obama and the Democrats in congress get depicted as being radical left wing by the right wing portions of the media, but that is totally absurd. For example, the majority of members of the Democratic Party favored a single payer solution to health care and almost all Democrats favored at least a public option, but the Democrats in congress and Obama compromised on that. Obama is more liberal than Clinton, but I'd say he is still to the right of the average Democratic voter. Pelosi is left of the average party member, and a really big deal gets made of that, but in the end, she's just one vote out of 256. She spends all her time trying to keep the congressional Democrats from swinging way to the right of the average Democratic voter.

My main problem with the Republican party is that all too often the least sensible and least principled among them seem to rise to positions of power.

Yeah. I agree. From my point of view, the biggest problem with the Republican Party at the moment is the frequency that they're putting actual idiots up for office... Bush was a stone cold idiot, Palin is unbelievably idiotic... There are some really smart, capable, Republicans out there. James Baker, Colin Powelll, etc. Like the kind of people whose intellect everybody in the world respects. Baker in particular. But they suppress those folks and float "everyday joe" types up to the top because they think that wins elections... That may be true, but they're losing the war to win the battle that way.
 
If you have a wasp up your butt about the term Original Sin, then call it human nature, baser instincts, or human corruptibility if you wish. The point remains that humans are not perfectable, therefore utopia is not achieveable. Argue against that statement if you wish.

The idea behind original sin wouldn mean that people could not fight against "human/animal" nature in order to improve their lives as well as those around them. As human nature is instinctive behaviour that thousands of years of evolution has caused to be part of our character. However as human have gained the ability for critical thinking, the long term storage of information and knowledge, we do not have to be slaves to our base instincts if we so choose not to be. Those of strong will and mind can overcome the base instinct that evolution has created for us.

Original sin would mean that we are not responsible for our actions as they are derived from god, that we are sinners by nature and that seeking to improve ourself to be above it is impossible
 
Lets start with the Pacific Railway Acts.
It gave land grants to railroad companies, so they would build railroads throughout the continental U.S.
That eventually gave them 1/10 of the total land in the U.S.

Pacific Railway Acts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Later with Standard Oil.
Standard Oil created a partnership with the Railroad companies to prevent other oil competitors from crossing property owned by the railroad companies, effectively eliminating their ability to compete on any level.

Standard Oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Bells were given a regional monopoly.
It was granted by the government.

Bell System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Boy you love rewriting history.

First off Governments have always given out permission to private companies and people to do things. This goes back thousands of years and is hardly a "liberal idea". Like it or not, kings and queens gave noblemen permission to rule over areas and the people there. Like it or not, your little continent would not have been rediscovered by Columbus if it had not been for government money and permission. Like it or not it was not a "liberal" conspiracy or anything but the way that almost every major industrial base was started. Governments granted licences to do a job and often to one person only.. and this happened long before socialist thinking ever came to the for front. Your whole country is founded on this principle.... Everything from the first settlers to power grids, water grids and so on were started due to government permission or/and funding. You might be deluded to think that it was the private sector that created the wealth of the US and the industrialized world, but the reality is without government permission, support and patents it would never have happened.

Secondly, the Pacific Railway Acts as you stated gave land grants to PRIVATE companies. That another private company later on made a deal with these companies can not be a shocker for anyone.. it happens all the time. And if they are allowed to keep making these deals unchecked then you get cartels and monopolies that damage the free market you so cherish. Hence Government is needed to hold such things in check.

Thirdly, Standard Oil used questionable methods to gain its near monopoly, including murder, bribery and so on. They basically used any and all methods to gain the monopoly because there was zero credible government regulation to prevent it. In the end they went to far, or as I like to see it.. did not grease the correct politicians, and they were broken up.

Fourthly, the Bells.. yes they were government granted "monopolies" pretty much and they still exist as such pretty much. And so what? Again... most infrastructure from power grids to the internet is only here because of government giving permission, regionally, locally or nationally. Think it as a patent and that resulted in you having a telephone net. No private company has ever started up a grid of any sort without government help.

As for this thread, another right wing fantasy thread based on false pretences about the "left".
 
Boy you love rewriting history.

No, citing history.

First off Governments have always given out permission to private companies and people to do things. This goes back thousands of years and is hardly a "liberal idea". Like it or not, kings and queens gave noblemen permission to rule over areas and the people there. Like it or not, your little continent would not have been rediscovered by Columbus if it had not been for government money and permission. Like it or not it was not a "liberal" conspiracy or anything but the way that almost every major industrial base was started. Governments granted licences to do a job and often to one person only.. and this happened long before socialist thinking ever came to the for front. Your whole country is founded on this principle.... Everything from the first settlers to power grids, water grids and so on were started due to government permission or/and funding. You might be deluded to think that it was the private sector that created the wealth of the US and the industrialized world, but the reality is without government permission, support and patents it would never have happened.

Pete if you bothered to read the things I wrote before hand, you'd see that I never said this is some liberal scheme.
Read first then comment, I said it wasn't right to characterize liberals as "utopian."

Wealth is created by individuals.
Government permission is merely a formality as people would still seek wealth without their consent.
For further study, see the drug trade.

Secondly, the Pacific Railway Acts as you stated gave land grants to PRIVATE companies. That another private company later on made a deal with these companies can not be a shocker for anyone.. it happens all the time. And if they are allowed to keep making these deals unchecked then you get cartels and monopolies that damage the free market you so cherish. Hence Government is needed to hold such things in check.

The government allowed them to become what they were through generous land grants.
1/10th of the U.S. is a lot of land with that comes immeasurable power.

Thirdly, Standard Oil used questionable methods to gain its near monopoly, including murder, bribery and so on. They basically used any and all methods to gain the monopoly because there was zero credible government regulation to prevent it. In the end they went to far, or as I like to see it.. did not grease the correct politicians, and they were broken up.

A lot of those methods had the backing of the government.
Many labor strikes were attacked with national guard troops.

Questionable methods would be partnering with a government sponsored entity (railroads) to exclude other market participants.

Fourthly, the Bells.. yes they were government granted "monopolies" pretty much and they still exist as such pretty much. And so what? Again... most infrastructure from power grids to the internet is only here because of government giving permission, regionally, locally or nationally. Think it as a patent and that resulted in you having a telephone net. No private company has ever started up a grid of any sort without government help.

Teamosil brought them up, I didn't.
Private firms could create a power/cable grid, although I think the better alternative would be community subsidized power grids with multiple, small generation companies.
Which allows consumer choice.

As for this thread, another right wing fantasy thread based on false pretences about the "left".

I have not defended the saying that, liberal = utopian.
Take off your partisan blinders for a moment and see that I actually said it wasn't right to call liberals utopian.
 
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No, citing history.



Pete if you bothered to read the things I wrote before hand, you'd see that I never said this is some liberal scheme.
Read first then comment, I said it wasn't right to characterize liberals as "utopian."

Wealth is created by individuals.
Government permission is merely a formality as people would still seek wealth without their consent.
For further study, see the drug trade.



The government allowed them to become what they were through generous land grants.
1/10th of the U.S. is a lot of land with that comes immeasurable power.



A lot of those methods had the backing of the government.
Many labor strikes were attacked with national guard troops.

Questionable methods would be partnering with a government sponsored entity (railroads) to exclude other market participants.



Teamosil brought them up, I didn't.
Private firms could create a power/cable grid, although I think the better alternative would be community subsidized power grids with multiple, small generation companies.
Which allows consumer choice.



I have not defended the saying that, liberal = utopian.
Take off your partisan blinders for a moment and see that I actually said it wasn't right to call liberals utopian.

Fair enough, my bad.
 
Standard Oil was a product of the Pacific Railway act.

How so? My understanding was that Standard Oil was so big that no railway could survive without their business, so they instituted a penalty system where if a railroad company transported anybody else's oil too, they would make the railroad company pay them a substantial fee or lose standard oil's business. That was eventually prohibited under anti-trust laws. Not sure if that is what you're talking about though.

The Bell companies had a government granted regional monopoly.

No, the separate Bell companies were the first attempt to break up the monopoly. For a long time Bell was a nationwide monopoly on telephone service. The government forced them to break up into regional companies instead thinking that would be better than one big monopoly, but that didn't make sense because within those regions they were still monopolies. That's a case for stronger anti-trust action by government, not weaker.

Not true.
If it were, U.S. Steel would still have a majority market share like they did in the early 1900's.

That's an interesting case I don't know a ton about, so feel free to fill me in, but my understanding is that they lost market share to other countries more than to smaller companies here, no?

But, my argument doesn't require that monopolies will always win, or even really that they tend to win (although I do believe that to be true), but only that the CAN win without regulation. All it takes for a corporation to completely oppress the people of a country is for a single monopoly to arrise in an essential sector of the economy. A corporation with a monopoly over oil, food, steel, plastic, telephone, internet, water, electricity, etc, essentially has the entire country in a headlock. Certainly you won't argue that monopoly is impossible without regulation, so then you do see why absolute economic freedom would result in oppression, right?
 
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The idea behind original sin wouldn mean that people could not fight against "human/animal" nature in order to improve their lives as well as those around them. As human nature is instinctive behaviour that thousands of years of evolution has caused to be part of our character. However as human have gained the ability for critical thinking, the long term storage of information and knowledge, we do not have to be slaves to our base instincts if we so choose not to be. Those of strong will and mind can overcome the base instinct that evolution has created for us.

Original sin would mean that we are not responsible for our actions as they are derived from god, that we are sinners by nature and that seeking to improve ourself to be above it is impossible


Too absolute.

In my experience, there is almost no man so depraved that there is no good in him at all. I've personally known mass-murderers who loved their Mother and were polite and well-mannered.

Also there is no saint so saintly that his baser nature isn't there waiting to trip him up, if he isn't very careful.

Within every human is a war between their baser nature and their better nature. Most people are neither demons nor angels, but somewhere in between... but at the same time, most people don't have enough POWER to really abuse others in big ways. They are constrained by fear of resprisals, either from injured victims, their associates, or the Law.

When someone has political power, they ARE the Law, to some degree at least. The more political power they possess, the more power they have to help or harm according to which side of their nature is dominant at the moment. Great power is a great temptation; justifications suggest themselves for using it and abusing it according to one's inclinations.

Whenever any individual or group or class gains too much power, and is too insulated from being held accountable for its use and punished for its ABuse, it is all but inevitable that that power will be abused and many people will suffer. The power elite may do it from the "best of motives": you know, one of those trite sayings like "the greatest good for the greatest number", or some ideology, or some principle. The end result tends to be oppression of dissent or differing lifestyles or beliefs, suppression of dissenting speech, and in the more extreme cases: gulags and death camps.

Even those who begin with clean hands and pure motives can end as the worst sort of tyrants, when they possess too much power and too little accountability.

The Founders knew this, that's why they set up a LIMITED government. A LIMITED government can't solve all your problems... but it also tends to allow you the freedom to solve many of your own problems and live your own life.

This is one of the main reasons I favor small government with limited powers. The bigger and more powerful government is, the more likely it is that that power will be abused by fallible and corruptible humans running it.

I knew a good man. He was a local lawyer and mayor of a small town. Over time he rose to the Senate... and a few years later I was stunned to find out that he was being indicted for a variety of abuses of his position. I could not reconcile the good man I had known years earlier with what he had become, until I remembered this old adage: "Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

The more power you give government to deal with problems, the more of a problem Government itself will become. The only solution is a careful middle road: just enough government to deal with what must be done, and not one iota more.
 
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I strongly disagree with this. Clinton, for example, was substantially to the right of the average Democrat. He kicked 3/4 of the people on welfare off of it, he dropped the capital gains tax by a shocking 10%, he reduced regulation in a lot of sectors, etc. Economically he was actually quite conservative. .

Actually most of what you are talking about was pushed by the Republican House under Newt Gingrinch, and the Contract with America. Clinton opposed many of these measures until he realized they were popular and that opposing them was hurting his political capital.
 
Actually most of what you are talking about was pushed by the Republican House under Newt Gingrinch, and the Contract with America. Clinton opposed many of these measures until he realized they were popular and that opposing them was hurting his political capital.

Sure, that's the whole point of politics- to work out a compromise that everybody can live with. You can't consider somebody super liberal that compromised away that much liberal stuff. Clinton compromised dramatically on welfare and taxes, Obama compromised dramatically on health care, and they both have ended up being pretty moderate as a result.
 
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