LGBT, Not Born That Way?

[calamity]

Excellent. Then keep your mouth shut about the issue since it doesn't concern you.



This demonstrates two things. Firstly it demonstrates that you are STILL completely ignorant on this issue and it demonstrates a lack of social skills on your part.



This shows that you are STILL completely ignorant on this issue for a few reasons. Firstly, all treatments are recognized as treating a condition, NOT being elective, though an individual can, of course, elect to NOT treat the condition. Secondly, since this is accepted and credible medical practice, your opinion on it's validity is both idiotic and ignorant, both based on bias and a lack of education on this topic. And lastly... I have a trans client who works for the government. His government health care has completely covered his HRT and SRS. You lose.



This continues to show a lack of understanding of this issue.



This is a red herring.

A man is not a woman no matter how often you insist he is. That claim is pure bull****. Some men believe they are women and vice versa. That is accurate. Why they believe it is unknown. That too is accurate.

The reason I oppose SRS for children is because we do not know what is going on. Also, children sometimes grow out of things, GDD is one of those things.

 

[roguenuke]

You're dreaming if you think older guys married to older women wouldn't dump the old hag like a dirty rag, if some hot, young vixen gave them the smile and a sexy come on. They usually don't, which is why most men know that they stand no chance at some 23 year old hottie who looks like she belongs on the cover of a magazine.

But, that's not saying that the men don't wish they could. Porn sales alone prove that there is no doubt about that.

As I've said before, depends on the man and what he's looking for in a wife. You are trying to apply a generality to all men that isn't true. Plenty of men would rather be with an older, more mature woman than some young even hot girl for the maturity factor alone.


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[roguenuke]

Some of those that venture into different sexual behavior believe to be acting upon an imperative of some sort, but others do that out of curiosity or intemperance. So yes, whimsy plays a role in the sexual behavior of many. Not that the distinction matters anyway; the born that way proposition hinges on sexuality being rigid, something that lacks empirical evidence and defies observed reality.

And you are mixing two different things, attraction and behavior. Sexuality is about attraction not behavior.


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[roguenuke]

I know. And, that's where we begin to differ. And, those differences start out subtle at first but end up as wide as the Grand Canyon further down the road.

Does the surgery relieve someone's dysphoria? Sure. I can't disagree with that. Does it solve their core problem and make them normal? Absolutely not.

First define the core problem of transsexuals.

Second who says they have to be normal? Who says that's the goal?


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[calamity]

First define the core problem of transsexuals.

Second who says they have to be normal? Who says that's the goal?


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Core problem: they believe they are the opposite sex from which they were born. This needs to be explained?

Normal: Fit in with society, not feel ostracized, suicidal or depressed enough to take drugs or drink too much.

 

[calamity]

As I've said before, depends on the man and what he's looking for in a wife. You are trying to apply a generality to all men that isn't true. Plenty of men would rather be with an older, more mature woman than some young even hot girl for the maturity factor alone.


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All I am doing is showing that not only gay people have to adapt to realities. If I felt I was gay at 39 instead of attracted to twenty-something blonde females, I would have left my 43 year-old wife either way. Now, at 53, although still attracted to twenty-something blonde females, I would not leave my 43 year-old wife for a shot at one. It's no longer realistic. Point being, we all have preferences that we sometimes have to put away and keep in a box.

 

[TheGoverness]

You're dreaming if you think older guys married to older women wouldn't dump the old hag like a dirty rag, if some hot, young vixen gave them the smile and a sexy come on. They usually don't, which is why most men know that they stand no chance at some 23 year old hottie who looks like she belongs on the cover of a magazine.

So it's not because of dedication to their spouse that they're staying with them, it's really because they have no chance getting with some young model?

 

[roguenuke]

Core problem: they believe they are the opposite sex from which they were born. This needs to be explained?

Normal: Fit in with society, not feel ostracized, suicidal or depressed enough to take drugs or drink too much.

And how this belief is alleviated is going to be up to them and how they view "the opposite sex", so you can't say that this problem isn't alleviated by how they feel when it is caused by how they feel.

As for the normal part, you have no evidence that they continue to feel suicidal or depressed, take drugs or drink too much, at least not to the same levels, after SRS. You have shown no research that compares after to before, only research that shows throughout their lifetime. Plus, it is easy to see that some of those things mentioned above are due to the ostracism of others in the first place.

 

[roguenuke]

All I am doing is showing that not only gay people have to adapt to realities. If I felt I was gay at 39 instead of attracted to twenty-something blonde females, I would have left my 43 year-old wife either way. Now, at 53, although still attracted to twenty-something blonde females, I would not leave my 43 year-old wife for a shot at one. It's no longer realistic. Point being, we all have preferences that we sometimes have to put away and keep in a box.

This is still a shallow view. This sounds like you are saying that if you did have a realistic shot at a 23 year old blonde female that you would leave your wife in an instant for it, regardless of the relationship you have established with your wife. And I don't think that most married men would really agree with you. They may want a chance to have a sexual encounter with a 23 year old, but not leave their wife for her. Any guy with half a brain would know that would be stupid.

In most cases where a gay man comes out after decades of marriage, and leaves his wife, it isn't because he found something better in a young man, but rather because he realized his feelings for his wife weren't real intimacy. He could still be a selfish person by doing this. And there certainly are instances where men leave their wives for a younger man, but the motivation for leaving is what should cause the applause or disapproval, not who the person who left ends up with.

 

[calamity]

This is still a shallow view. This sounds like you are saying that if you did have a realistic shot at a 23 year old blonde female that you would leave your wife in an instant for it, regardless of the relationship you have established with your wife. And I don't think that most married men would really agree with you. They may want a chance to have a sexual encounter with a 23 year old, but not leave their wife for her. Any guy with half a brain would know that would be stupid.

Of course it would be stupid. But, when one thinks with the little head, stupid rules the game.

In most cases where a gay man comes out after decades of marriage, and leaves his wife, it isn't because he found something better in a young man, but rather because he realized his feelings for his wife weren't real intimacy. He could still be a selfish person by doing this. And there certainly are instances where men leave their wives for a younger man, but the motivation for leaving is what should cause the applause or disapproval, not who the person who left ends up with.

We disagree in that I believe both are selfish acts.

 

[calamity]

And how this belief is alleviated is going to be up to them and how they view "the opposite sex", so you can't say that this problem isn't alleviated by how they feel when it is caused by how they feel.

Yes, it is all about how they "feel." On that we agree.

As for the normal part, you have no evidence that they continue to feel suicidal or depressed, take drugs or drink too much, at least not to the same levels, after SRS. You have shown no research that compares after to before, only research that shows throughout their lifetime. Plus, it is easy to see that some of those things mentioned above are due to the ostracism of others in the first place.

I would like to see some long term studies (several actually), peer reviewed and published in journals that are accessible on line which take a control group and compares it to SRS. There is a dearth of information like that. I think the most I've seen so far is some Swedish study with a handful of SRS who supposedly showed a decrease in suicidal thoughts. Hardly anything I would call concrete.

 

[calamity]

So it's not because of dedication to their spouse that they're staying with them, it's really because they have no chance getting with some young model?

Probably.

You can add to it as well.

IMO, the real reason most of us do not go Larry King and hook up with women 30 years younger than us is because we know that such a relationship will not work or stand the test of time. But, that we would love to bang such a person is without questions universal.

 

[CLAX1911]

So it's not because of dedication to their spouse that they're staying with them, it's really because they have no chance getting with some young model?

There is so much more to a relationship than just the way the person looks.

 

[calamity]

There is so much more to a relationship than just the way the person looks.

Yeah, yeah. Everyone says that...but, of course, if they could nail a hottie they would.

 

[Henrin]

This is still a shallow view. This sounds like you are saying that if you did have a realistic shot at a 23 year old blonde female that you would leave your wife in an instant for it, regardless of the relationship you have established with your wife. And I don't think that most married men would really agree with you. They may want a chance to have a sexual encounter with a 23 year old, but not leave their wife for her. Any guy with half a brain would know that would be stupid.

Ok, so take away the divorce punishment and ask yourself how many men would leave their 60 year old wife for a 23 year old woman.

 

[CLAX1911]

Yeah, yeah. Everyone says that...but, of course, if they could nail a hottie they would.

Maybe you would. Perhaps you come off as a creep. Maybe that is why you don't catch the eye of a younger lass.

I've had ample opportunity, I've never taken it.

 

[TheGoverness]

There is so much more to a relationship than just the way the person looks.

Of course.

 

[calamity]

Maybe you would. Perhaps you come off as a creep. Maybe that is why you don't catch the eye of a younger lass.

I've had ample opportunity, I've never taken it.

An older married man lusting after young women is no different than some married guy lusting after dick. Why the double standard? Not very progressive of you.

 

[calamity]

Of course.

Oh please. That is such bull****.

 

[TheGoverness]

Oh please. That is such bull****.

It's not bull****. But maybe to you it is.

 

[calamity]

It's not bull****. But maybe to you it is.

Yeah, people pick ugly spouses because they hate beautiful ones. :roll:

 

[TheGoverness]

Yeah, people pick ugly spouses because they hate beautiful ones. :roll:

Wha? That's not where I'm getting at.

I wouldn't be so stupid to throw away everything that I've built with my GF for years on end, just to get with some looker.

You think just looks are the key to having a healthy relationship? Hell no.

 

[calamity]

Wha? That's not where I'm getting at.

I wouldn't be so stupid to throw away everything that I've built with my GF for years on end, just to get with some looker.

You think just looks are the key to having a healthy relationship? Hell no.

But, it's perfectly OK to throw away everything that someone has built with their spouse for years on end, just to scratch some same sex itch. Right?

 

[TheGoverness]

But, it's perfectly OK to throw away everything that someone has built with their spouse for years on end, just to scratch some same sex itch. Right?

It's not for me to say if it is or isn't OK. But it's a very stupid decision to make.

 

[calamity]

It's not for me to say if it is or isn't OK. But it's a very stupid decision to make.

People make dumb decisions all the time. Sex seems to be the leading indicator in many of those dumb decisions.