Left vs Right. (1 Viewer)

[enderpotato00]

Now for the record, I'm not saying I'm perfect or better than anyone else. This is pretty much of an opinion, but here we go.

I primarily identify as a moderate conservative. So slightly on the right. I will admit that my side (often) does the same exact crap as the left does. But here's what bothers me a lot on this site.

1. It has so much left-wing bias.

While I understand everyone is going to have a bias, this just ruins a lot of my experience on here.
It seems like conservatives are a minority on here, and thats a problem. If we are going to "debate", we need to have opposing sides.

2. No actual debating

Despite what the site is called, I don't see any actual debating on here.
Its always this "its my way or the highway", and/or "bash the other side to feel better about yourself, b/c you feel morally superior", something like that.
Thats not debating, its just insulting people, who have different opinions than you. I will admit I have done this myself! But I'm trying not to do that so much.

3. Again, insulting

I've noticed this a lot with liberals against Trump Supporters. Apparently we all are racist, dumbasses (somehow?). My side does this too.

4. Disregard my opinions b/c I'm young.

Now I understand that obviously I don't have enough experience, but usually I'm disregarded b/c I'm young.
But I guarantee if I agreed with the liberal philosophy, I would be "super intelligent", and "well-educated". Just my two cents.

Anyways, what I'm saying is that being a liberal or conservative is not bad. Being a libertarian is not bad.
It just more annoys me when instead of actually providing solutions, its always bitching or insulting each other.
Anyways that's all I wanted to say. Thank you and have a good day.

 

[phattonez]

Pick and choose your threads. Any Trump or breaking news politics themed thread is guaranteed to be trash. If you go onto a thread where a debate over policy is being had, then you get a more interesting discussion. Many of my economics threads turn out that way, even if they do get heated at times.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Now for the record, I'm not saying I'm perfect or better than anyone else. This is pretty much of an opinion, but here we go.

I primarily identify as a moderate conservative. So slightly on the right. I will admit that my side (often) does the same exact crap as the left does. But here's what bothers me a lot on this site.

1. It has so much left-wing bias.

While I understand everyone is going to have a bias, this just ruins a lot of my experience on here.
It seems like conservatives are a minority on here, and thats a problem. If we are going to "debate", we need to have opposing sides.

2. No actual debating

Despite what the site is called, I don't see any actual debating on here.
Its always this "its my way or the highway", and/or "bash the other side to feel better about yourself, b/c you feel morally superior", something like that.
Thats not debating, its just insulting people, who have different opinions than you. I will admit I have done this myself! But I'm trying not to do that so much.

3. Again, insulting

I've noticed this a lot with liberals against Trump Supporters. Apparently we all are racist, dumbasses (somehow?). My side does this too.

4. Disregard my opinions b/c I'm young.

Now I understand that obviously I don't have enough experience, but usually I'm disregarded b/c I'm young.
But I guarantee if I agreed with the liberal philosophy, I would be "super intelligent", and "well-educated". Just my two cents.

Anyways, what I'm saying is that being a liberal or conservative is not bad. Being a libertarian is not bad.
It just more annoys me when instead of actually providing solutions, its always bitching or insulting each other.
Anyways that's all I wanted to say. Thank you and have a good day.

It does not seem possible to debate "Left vs. Right" in a non-political thread. What you really seem to be saying, and I completely agree with, is that you would prefer folks regardless of their political lean to offer constructive criticism rather than to simply claim the moral or intellectual high ground and accuse any who disagree with them as being immoral or less intelligent.

 

[Xelor]

Now for the record, I'm not saying I'm perfect or better than anyone else. This is pretty much of an opinion, but here we go.

I primarily identify as a moderate conservative. So slightly on the right. I will admit that my side (often) does the same exact crap as the left does. But here's what bothers me a lot on this site.

...

2. No actual debating

Despite what the site is called, I don't see any actual debating on here. ...

...

4. Disregard my opinions b/c I'm young.

Now I understand that obviously I don't have enough experience, but usually I'm disregarded b/c I'm young.
But I guarantee if I agreed with the liberal philosophy, I would be "super intelligent", and "well-educated". Just my two cents.

...

It just more annoys me when instead of actually providing solutions, its always bitching or insulting each other.
Anyways that's all I wanted to say. Thank you and have a good day.

[deletions due to character limit]

Thanks and you have a good one too.

I'll address a couple of the thoughts you've expressed:

Red:
I tend to agree with you on this point. Variously, I've expressly and tacitly entreated for and responded to express/tacit entreaties to debate. What do I get in reply? "Crickets" (or on occasion, near as makes no difference), ridiculously weak rebuttals, or occasionally an insipid response about the length of my post, or even more puerilly, my diction.

• "Crickets" examples:
  • "Example 1 -- An OP-er cited an author's work as a criticism my comments. I responded with a rebuttal/defense worthy of the work cited.
  • Example 2 -- I invited debate on a very narrowly and precisely defined aspect of the gun rights/control debate; nobody endeavored to show the inadequacy of the evidentiary case I presented. The one "gun rights guy" who replied didn't respond to the actual argument of the thread.
• "Near as makes no difference" examples:
  • Example 1
  • Example 2
• Weak Rebuttals/Openings
  • Example 1 -- Many posts in the thread, but, IIRC, not one solid rebuttal to the argument in the OP's attachment.
  • Example 2 -- A member opened a thread with at least two dubious pseudo-assertions. I refuted the sense of both. (I misconstrued one of the OP's key words, and addressed the mistake in post 21.)
  • Example 3
  • Example 4
  • Example 5
• A tacit entreaty to debate, or if one prefers, a rebuttal to another's claim or defense of my own position. The final post in the series rebukes another member's ideas. I didn't see anyone provide a "debate worthy response."

As for why folks engage in mindless argy-bary rather than debate is anyone's guess. I can say that I've observed that fairly often folks entreat for debate on topics they don't very well understand. It's all but impossible to debate a topic of which one's comprehension is but cursory. Another observation is that many folks seem not to comprehend what actually is the central topic/theme being debated, although, in fairness, often enough, OP-ers don't open their threads with well defined discussion topics. In the latter instances, a thread cannot help but be incoherent as a debate.


Blue:
I haven't any idea of your age; however, I can say that if you frequently enough reply jejunely to my posts, I will add you to my ignore list. It won't be because you are young; it'll be because you've, with puerile and ill-considered thoughts, consumed as much of my time as I'm willing to allow. It's about your responding as a minor would, not that you are/aren't a minor.

That said, my writing style isn't easily "digested" by minors. That's partly by design, but mostly because it's how I and my peers and friends routinely (in the "real world") write and speak, and I'm too damned lazy to bother here writing formally rather than conversationally. The thing is that I'm not particularly desirous of feedback/debate worthy only of minors, though I don't mind debate with minors who also are strong forensic debaters, provided the subject matter is one suited to their age and experience level, or is otherwise something minors can with portfolio discuss.

 

[enderpotato00]

[deletions due to character limit]

Thanks and you have a good one too.

I'll address a couple of the thoughts you've expressed:

Red:
I tend to agree with you on this point. Variously, I've expressly and tacitly entreated for and responded to express/tacit entreaties to debate. What do I get in reply? "Crickets" (or on occasion, near as makes no difference), ridiculously weak rebuttals, or occasionally an insipid response about the length of my post, or even more puerilly, my diction.

• "Crickets" examples:
  • "Example 1 -- An OP-er cited an author's work as a criticism my comments. I responded with a rebuttal/defense worthy of the work cited.
  • Example 2 -- I invited debate on a very narrowly and precisely defined aspect of the gun rights/control debate; nobody endeavored to show the inadequacy of the evidentiary case I presented. The one "gun rights guy" who replied didn't respond to the actual argument of the thread.
• "Near as makes no difference" examples:
  • Example 1
  • Example 2
• Weak Rebuttals/Openings
  • Example 1 -- Many posts in the thread, but, IIRC, not one solid rebuttal to the argument in the OP's attachment.
  • Example 2 -- A member opened a thread with at least two dubious pseudo-assertions. I refuted the sense of both. (I misconstrued one of the OP's key words, and addressed the mistake in post 21.)
  • Example 3
  • Example 4
  • Example 5
• A tacit entreaty to debate, or if one prefers, a rebuttal to another's claim or defense of my own position. The final post in the series rebukes another member's ideas. I didn't see anyone provide a "debate worthy response."

As for why folks engage in mindless argy-bary rather than debate is anyone's guess. I can say that I've observed that fairly often folks entreat for debate on topics they don't very well understand. It's all but impossible to debate a topic of which one's comprehension is but cursory. Another observation is that many folks seem not to comprehend what actually is the central topic/theme being debated, although, in fairness, often enough, OP-ers don't open their threads with well defined discussion topics. In the latter instances, a thread cannot help but be incoherent as a debate.


Blue:
I haven't any idea of your age; however, I can say that if you frequently enough reply jejunely to my posts, I will add you to my ignore list. It won't be because you are young; it'll be because you've, with puerile and ill-considered thoughts, consumed as much of my time as I'm willing to allow. It's about your responding as a minor would, not that you are/aren't a minor.

That said, my writing style isn't easily "digested" by minors. That's partly by design, but mostly because it's how I and my peers and friends routinely (in the "real world") write and speak, and I'm too damned lazy to bother here writing formally rather than conversationally. The thing is that I'm not particularly desirous of feedback/debate worthy only of minors, though I don't mind debate with minors who also are strong forensic debaters, provided the subject matter is one suited to their age and experience level, or is otherwise something minors can with portfolio discuss.

Thanks for the comment. I just want to point out that I'm not a minor. I'm an adult. Not trying to sound like an ass, I'm just stating here. Other than that, good points.

 

[Bullseye]

Now for the record, I'm not saying I'm perfect or better than anyone else. This is pretty much of an opinion, but here we go.

I primarily identify as a moderate conservative. So slightly on the right. I will admit that my side (often) does the same exact crap as the left does. But here's what bothers me a lot on this site.

1. It has so much left-wing bias.

While I understand everyone is going to have a bias, this just ruins a lot of my experience on here.
It seems like conservatives are a minority on here, and thats a problem. If we are going to "debate", we need to have opposing sides.

2. No actual debating

Despite what the site is called, I don't see any actual debating on here.
Its always this "its my way or the highway", and/or "bash the other side to feel better about yourself, b/c you feel morally superior", something like that.
Thats not debating, its just insulting people, who have different opinions than you. I will admit I have done this myself! But I'm trying not to do that so much.

3. Again, insulting

I've noticed this a lot with liberals against Trump Supporters. Apparently we all are racist, dumbasses (somehow?). My side does this too.

4. Disregard my opinions b/c I'm young.

Now I understand that obviously I don't have enough experience, but usually I'm disregarded b/c I'm young.
But I guarantee if I agreed with the liberal philosophy, I would be "super intelligent", and "well-educated". Just my two cents.

Anyways, what I'm saying is that being a liberal or conservative is not bad. Being a libertarian is not bad.
It just more annoys me when instead of actually providing solutions, its always bitching or insulting each other.
Anyways that's all I wanted to say. Thank you and have a good day.

If you hadn't told us, I would never have known you are young. PS: At my age there are a LOT of young people around. :lamo


As to the message of your post, I think you did an excellent job summarizing the situation.


This IS a debate site and there are people from all points on the spectrum that WILL debate you and keep it on point. Not as many as I would like but a few. I've had several really good interchanges with those that either claim a left lean or choose a non-descript "lean" for their avatar but whose posts make their lean crystal clear. There are others who prefer to just sling ****, call names and hurl insults. I have little patience with these folks and I will admit I respond in kind, and I have a long memory.

 

[Bullseye]

I should add, that I neither desire nor require adherence to any formal rules of debate. I prefer a conversational forum. Think of sitting around the table or the fit pit in the backyard over a beer and burger.

 

[bongsaway]

For me some posts are just so ridiculous they deserve a sarcastic non answer. I imagine I'm like most folks on here, I'll take a serious question and answer it seriously but most questions, even mine are just for the sake of entertainment. People get too wound up in their positions and way to emotional. I do not care for our current president. I think he is not qualified, surrounds himself with unsavory people and lies constantly while berating everybody and everything, even his own party. Trying to have a debate with his hard core supporters is near impossible because they refuse to believe their own eyes and ears and will defend everything trump. Also the name calling is out of control on here.

 

[enderpotato00]

For me some posts are just so ridiculous they deserve a sarcastic non answer. I imagine I'm like most folks on here, I'll take a serious question and answer it seriously but most questions, even mine are just for the sake of entertainment. People get too wound up in their positions and way to emotional. I do not care for our current president. I think he is not qualified, surrounds himself with unsavory people and lies constantly while berating everybody and everything, even his own party. Trying to have a debate with his hard core supporters is near impossible because they refuse to believe their own eyes and ears and will defend everything trump. Also the name calling is out of control on here.

I don't love Trump, I'm kind of neutral towards him now. I can agree with that statement. I try to debate people who think California is just fine, and they just don't listen, b/c I'm a conservative California, apparently my opinion doesn't matter. I don't agree with progressives a lot, but you seem to actually try and understand the other side. For that, I commend you.

 

[bongsaway]

I don't love Trump, I'm kind of neutral towards him now. I can agree with that statement. I try to debate people who think California is just fine, and they just don't listen, b/c I'm a conservative California, apparently my opinion doesn't matter. I don't agree with progressives a lot, but you seem to actually try and understand the other side. For that, I commend you.

You are welcome. I've been trying to understand the right for many years, decades even, I just don't get it?

 

[enderpotato00]

You are welcome. I've been trying to understand the right for many years, decades even, I just don't get it?

Thats my feeling towards the left, to me, I just don't understand.

 

[Xelor]

Thanks for the comment. I just want to point out that I'm not a minor. I'm an adult. Not trying to sound like an ass, I'm just stating here. Other than that, good points.

Red:
LOL. Well, that's good because your OP didn't make you, to my eye, make you seem like one. LOL

 

[bongsaway]

Thats my feeling towards the left, to me, I just don't understand.

The left to me is more about equality and the right is more about money and passing laws to restrict what they don't want others to do. The right talks about freedom, while trying their best to stifle the vote, gerrymander districts and in general just play dirty. I see people say conservative, what is that today? What are you conserving? Every branch of conservatism I can think of sounds ok but doesn't seem to be practiced. I think the powers that be on the right work on peoples' fears and hot button issues, guns, god, abortion etc while doing a giant disservice to their base with things like tax breaks for the wealthy while promising the base it's for them. Immigration is more important than health care to the right. The right tried their best to kill the affordable care act but once in office didn't. Trump promised bigger, better cheaper health care for all, still waiting. The right to me says one thing to its base and then does another.

 

[enderpotato00]

The left to me is more about equality and the right is more about money and passing laws to restrict what they don't want others to do. The right talks about freedom, while trying their best to stifle the vote, gerrymander districts and in general just play dirty. I see people say conservative, what is that today? What are you conserving? Every branch of conservatism I can think of sounds ok but doesn't seem to be practiced. I think the powers that be on the right work on peoples' fears and hot button issues, guns, god, abortion etc while doing a giant disservice to their base with things like tax breaks for the wealthy while promising the base it's for them. Immigration is more important than health care to the right. The right tried their best to kill the affordable care act but once in office didn't. Trump promised bigger, better cheaper health care for all, still waiting. The right to me says one thing to its base and then does another.

Modern conservatives are related to classical liberals

 

[Virgil Jones]

Modern conservatives are related to classical liberals

That is just a name or brand, from a past time. True, I am a classical liberal, but today that only means I am not a communist or other form of socialist.

 

[TheParser]

1. Internet forums are NOT really for debate.


2. They simply let us ordinary folks blow off steam.


3. Words never change anyone's mind.


4. Only brutal reality can change one's mind:

"A conservative is a former liberal who was beaten up by a street thug; a liberal is a former conservative who was beaten up by a cop."

 

[it's just me]

The left to me is more about equality and the right is more about money and passing laws to restrict what they don't want others to do. The right talks about freedom, while trying their best to stifle the vote, gerrymander districts and in general just play dirty. I see people say conservative, what is that today? What are you conserving? Every branch of conservatism I can think of sounds ok but doesn't seem to be practiced. I think the powers that be on the right work on peoples' fears and hot button issues, guns, god, abortion etc while doing a giant disservice to their base with things like tax breaks for the wealthy while promising the base it's for them. Immigration is more important than health care to the right. The right tried their best to kill the affordable care act but once in office didn't. Trump promised bigger, better cheaper health care for all, still waiting. The right to me says one thing to its base and then does another.

If you want a list of left wing talking points, here they are^.

 

[Dragonfly]

Now for the record, I'm not saying I'm perfect or better than anyone else. This is pretty much of an opinion, but here we go.

I primarily identify as a moderate conservative. So slightly on the right. I will admit that my side (often) does the same exact crap as the left does. But here's what bothers me a lot on this site.

1. It has so much left-wing bias.

While I understand everyone is going to have a bias, this just ruins a lot of my experience on here.
It seems like conservatives are a minority on here, and thats a problem. If we are going to "debate", we need to have opposing sides.

2. No actual debating

Despite what the site is called, I don't see any actual debating on here.
Its always this "its my way or the highway", and/or "bash the other side to feel better about yourself, b/c you feel morally superior", something like that.
Thats not debating, its just insulting people, who have different opinions than you. I will admit I have done this myself! But I'm trying not to do that so much.

3. Again, insulting

I've noticed this a lot with liberals against Trump Supporters. Apparently we all are racist, dumbasses (somehow?). My side does this too.

4. Disregard my opinions b/c I'm young.

Now I understand that obviously I don't have enough experience, but usually I'm disregarded b/c I'm young.
But I guarantee if I agreed with the liberal philosophy, I would be "super intelligent", and "well-educated". Just my two cents.

Anyways, what I'm saying is that being a liberal or conservative is not bad. Being a libertarian is not bad.
It just more annoys me when instead of actually providing solutions, its always bitching or insulting each other.
Anyways that's all I wanted to say. Thank you and have a good day.

Had you been here during the Obama years you would have seen pretty much a mega-cagillion anti-Obama threads, and DP would have seemed so slanted towards the "right" you might have felt more at "home".

There's no real bias to DP.

The pendulum swings both ways.

If things feel too far "left" for your liking here, blame it on Trump. :2razz:

 

[HonestJoe]

1. It has so much left-wing bias.

Even if that’s true, it shouldn’t matter in the context of specific discussions since only the a tiny proportion of the total membership will be involved. If you’re having a one-to-one discussion with someone, it doesn’t matter if there are a thousand other people on the forum who agree or disagree with you on that topic.

I think you demonstrate a bigger issue of the whole idea that everyone has to be labelled left or right and they can never agree with each other (or disagree with their own “side”) on anything. In reality, everyone will have different opinions about all the different topics that are and could be discussed here. Whether (you think) you and the other posters are labelled left or right shouldn’t make any difference, only what you each say on the topic in question. If those labels do make a difference to you, I’d argue that you’re part of the problem.

2. No actual debating

There is some but it does get drowned out but the divisive left/right hate-fest. As I said above though, you solve that by stopping labelling people.

3. Again, insulting

That’s a much a result of the same issue though there are plenty of trolls who may or may not hold the actual views the express but are primarily out to disrupt rather than discuss anyway. You can generally start to recognise them and just ignore them.

4. Disregard my opinions b/c I'm young.

Well there’s generally no reason for people here to know your age in the first place. Some people might use that as a reason to dismiss your opinions but that’s a fairly rare issue in my experience.

Anyways, what I'm saying is that being a liberal or conservative is not bad. Being a libertarian is not bad.

That’s your problem IMO. I’d say any of those labels are bad and the root cause of many of the issues you mention (while also being guilty of in some cases). You’re not “a right winger”, “a conservative” or whatever, you’re the enderpotato00. Approach debates on that basis and you might find the quality improves (though the volume will reduce).

 

[trouble13]

Now for the record, I'm not saying I'm perfect or better than anyone else. This is pretty much of an opinion, but here we go.

I primarily identify as a moderate conservative. So slightly on the right. I will admit that my side (often) does the same exact crap as the left does. But here's what bothers me a lot on this site.

1. It has so much left-wing bias.

While I understand everyone is going to have a bias, this just ruins a lot of my experience on here.
It seems like conservatives are a minority on here, and thats a problem. If we are going to "debate", we need to have opposing sides.

2. No actual debating

Despite what the site is called, I don't see any actual debating on here.
Its always this "its my way or the highway", and/or "bash the other side to feel better about yourself, b/c you feel morally superior", something like that.
Thats not debating, its just insulting people, who have different opinions than you. I will admit I have done this myself! But I'm trying not to do that so much.

3. Again, insulting

I've noticed this a lot with liberals against Trump Supporters. Apparently we all are racist, dumbasses (somehow?). My side does this too.

4. Disregard my opinions b/c I'm young.

Now I understand that obviously I don't have enough experience, but usually I'm disregarded b/c I'm young.
But I guarantee if I agreed with the liberal philosophy, I would be "super intelligent", and "well-educated". Just my two cents.

Anyways, what I'm saying is that being a liberal or conservative is not bad. Being a libertarian is not bad.
It just more annoys me when instead of actually providing solutions, its always bitching or insulting each other.
Anyways that's all I wanted to say. Thank you and have a good day.

A lot of it has to do with how you (not you personally) phrase your responses. There are good people on this site from all political views but if you start out by placing them in a defensive position your likely to get a defensive answer rather than an open discussion.

Some posters here are flat out trash and trolls the more you post the more you find put who they are. Dont waste your time responding to people you know are not interested in a civil conversation.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[HK.227]

Thats my feeling towards the left, to me, I just don't understand.

The Left = Approximately half the people on the planet.
I can see how that would be a problem. We should probably just stick to attacking peoples' points rather than the label they are assigned.
It would have the added benefit of working counter to the Tribalists purposes of putting us all into small, convenient and above all easily condemnable boxes.

 

[Sampson Simpson]

Now for the record, I'm not saying I'm perfect or better than anyone else. This is pretty much of an opinion, but here we go.

I primarily identify as a moderate conservative. So slightly on the right. I will admit that my side (often) does the same exact crap as the left does. But here's what bothers me a lot on this site.

1. It has so much left-wing bias.

While I understand everyone is going to have a bias, this just ruins a lot of my experience on here.
It seems like conservatives are a minority on here, and thats a problem. If we are going to "debate", we need to have opposing sides.

2. No actual debating

Despite what the site is called, I don't see any actual debating on here.
Its always this "its my way or the highway", and/or "bash the other side to feel better about yourself, b/c you feel morally superior", something like that.
Thats not debating, its just insulting people, who have different opinions than you. I will admit I have done this myself! But I'm trying not to do that so much.

3. Again, insulting

I've noticed this a lot with liberals against Trump Supporters. Apparently we all are racist, dumbasses (somehow?). My side does this too.

4. Disregard my opinions b/c I'm young.

Now I understand that obviously I don't have enough experience, but usually I'm disregarded b/c I'm young.
But I guarantee if I agreed with the liberal philosophy, I would be "super intelligent", and "well-educated". Just my two cents.

Anyways, what I'm saying is that being a liberal or conservative is not bad. Being a libertarian is not bad.
It just more annoys me when instead of actually providing solutions, its always bitching or insulting each other.
Anyways that's all I wanted to say. Thank you and have a good day.

Your side does the same is the biggest bunch of hore****. Liberals provide facts, arguments, reasoning. Conservatives don't have fact so just throw out baseless assertions, deflect, or the worse thing they do, make up a position liberals never take and argue that.

Stop this both sides the same nonsense. once side has facts, science, logic, reasoning, and history on their side, the other just whines kicks and screams and fights progress that inevitably comes

I see liberals post paragraph responses and cons just come in throw out a single dumb sentence and that's that

 

[enderpotato00]

Your side does the same is the biggest bunch of hore****. Liberals provide facts, arguments, reasoning. Conservatives don't have fact so just throw out baseless assertions, deflect, or the worse thing they do, make up a position liberals never take and argue that.

Stop this both sides the same nonsense. once side has facts, science, logic, reasoning, and history on their side, the other just whines kicks and screams and fights progress that inevitably comes

I see liberals post paragraph responses and cons just come in throw out a single dumb sentence and that's that

Ok maybe some liberals do, but you guys are just as bad as we are when it comes to facts, reasoning, etc. I see more conservatives actually back up their claims with facts.

 

[relator]

Modern conservatives are related to classical liberals

I think modern consevatives are related to national socialists, or, at least, they make out like if they were national socialists to get votes from them

 

[phattonez]

I think modern consevatives are related to national socialists, or, at least, they make out like if they were national socialists to get votes from them

Lol! Mitt Romney is similar to national socialists? This is absurd. Even Trump has proven to be little more than Romney. He's all talk and no substance.