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Left Libertarianism

More irony



Please stop whining and try to address the topic. I mean really, you folks go through so much trouble NOT to explain your positions.


You should also learn what "irony" is and is not.


If you are trying to say, that my responding to your insult with "ilk" is insulting, then that would be "hypocrisy" not "irony"...


ilk
ilk/Submit
noun
a type of people or things similar to those already referred to.



any negative connotation of "ilk" is all in your head.



Now, can you address the topical question at hand or am I to be left in the dark as to this mysterious and elusive "left-wing libertarianism".
 
Please stop whining and try to address the topic. I mean really, you folks go through so much trouble NOT to explain your positions.


You should also learn what "irony" is and is not.


If you are trying to say, that my responding to your insult with "ilk" is insulting, then that would be "hypocrisy" not "irony"...


ilk
ilk/Submit
noun
a type of people or things similar to those already referred to.



any negative connotation of "ilk" is all in your head.



Now, can you address the topical question at hand or am I to be left in the dark as to this mysterious and elusive "left-wing libertarianism".

Please explain why it's hypocrisy and not irony

Use your own words
 
you really go through so much trouble NOT to explain your positions.


I am happy to explain my libertarian beliefs.


Non-aggression

We should shrink our military to a force large enough to defend our nation, though I'd love to go back to "no-standing army", that may not be practical. Non-aggression applies to more than military obviously.

For example encroachments on private property by eminent domain is aggression towards rightful property owners thus violating ones natural rights.


That's but one aspect of my libertarian beliefs that I simply tossed off the top of my skull.


I think if I am something, I should be able to explain it, you, and your ilk, seemingly do not. which is why you are reduced to this antagonistic and non-topical position.


Godspeed to you, I am off to Jits!
 
I am happy to explain my libertarian beliefs.


Non-aggression

We should shrink our military to a force large enough to defend our nation, though I'd love to go back to "no-standing army", that may not be practical. Non-aggression applies to more than military obviously.

For example encroachments on private property by eminent domain is aggression towards rightful property owners thus violating ones natural rights.


That's but one aspect of my libertarian beliefs that I simply tossed off the top of my skull.


I think if I am something, I should be able to explain it, you, and your ilk, seemingly do not. which is why you are reduced to this antagonistic and non-topical position.


Godspeed to you, I am off to Jits!

I don't see how that is any different from left-libertarianism. Sounds like right "libertarians" are just standard right wing conservatives who are too ashamed to admit it.
 
I don't see how that is any different from left-libertarianism. Sounds like right "libertarians" are just standard right wing conservatives who are too ashamed to admit it.

Except for the non-aggression part; right wing conservatives are usually chicken hawks.
 
Who then enforces the coercion of telling you or I what we can do with the land plot we built our home on? (in simplest example)?

Your question is its own answer, for therein you reveal the two fallacies that cause right-libertarians to mistake authority for liberty: the homesteading principle and the homesteading hypothesis.

The homesteading principle is of course the demand that, when one improves, encloses, or otherwise rubs an avaricious scent on land, others be permanently obliged to respect one's sovereignty over the realm thereby defined. Originally, the homesteading principle was based on the faulty, labor theory of land value, by which property could emerge by the reciprocated consent of those governed by it and thus ultimately be libertarian; however, modern right-libertarians have retreated it to the axiomatic level, where it is safe against reason entirely.

The homesteading hypothesis, on the other hand, is the assumption that homesteading is indeed the origin of property. Unlike the homesteading principle, the homesteading hypothesis doesn't command right-libertarians' constant faith. When pressed, any right-libertarian with at least a high school education will admit that the true origin of property is conquest, shrug it off as the past being past (as if we were the ones who brought up history in the first place!), and then, the minute you give their defining amnesia half a chance, return to mythology as in the "simplest example" (as if homesteading were distinguished by its simplicity and not its unreality) above.
 
Do you agree that individuals ought to be secure in their property rights?

Loaded question. You first have to establish that individuals actually have an inherent natural right to exploit and monopolize land and the natural resources found on it at all. This is the challenge most right-wing property theorists (whether "right-libertarian" or otherwise) have not actually gotten around to taking.
 
Loaded question. You first have to establish that individuals actually have an inherent natural right to exploit and monopolize land and the natural resources found on it at all. This is the challenge most right-wing property theorists (whether "right-libertarian" or otherwise) have not actually gotten around to taking.

So I guess we can put you in the 'no' column.
 
feu·dal·ism
ˈfyo͞odlˌizəm/Submit
nounhistorical
the dominant social system in medieval Europe, in which the nobility held lands from the Crown in exchange for military service, and vassals were in turn tenants of the nobles, while the peasants (villeins or serfs) were obliged to live on their lord's land and give him homage, labor, and a share of the produce, notionally in exchange for military protection.



Yeah, that sounds just like libertarianism. /facepalm

Why, the land belonged to the nobles. It is in fact the institution of private landed property from which it is that nobility arose. Surely you have no problem with a private land owner determining what rules his guests have to abide by.
 
So I guess we can put you in the 'no' column.

Do you believe that slave owners should have been secure in their property rights? If not, then stop the begging of the question that property is automatically right by virtue of it being property. Your justification of property in land can be logically reduced into a justification of chattel slavery. This reductio ad absurdum crushes your "argument".
 
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Do you believe that slave owners should have been secure in their property rights?

I hold, and I assume you do as well, that each individual has the highest and most legitimate claim to his own physical body. Thus violations of one's body, such as murder, rape, assault, and, yes, slavery, are a violation of one's rights.

If not, then stop the begging of the question that property is automatically right by virtue of it being property. Your justification of property in land can be logically reduced into a justification of chattel slavery.

No, it can't be logically reduced into a justification for chattel slavery. Because people are not land.

This reductio ad absurdum crushes your "argument".

Smith and Jones both want to make use of a particular piece of land. Which would you prefer? That they fight it out to see who gets to use it, or that society recognizes that one has a property right to use it?
 
I don't see how that is any different from left-libertarianism. Sounds like right "libertarians" are just standard right wing conservatives who are too ashamed to admit it.



Right wing conservatives want to be in your pants. libertarians don't. I don't care who you pay to ****, what drugs you do, or who you marry... right wing conservatives do.

You can't have an honest discussion. Obviously.


You claim "left-libertaranism" now supports property rights? See this is why "left-libertarianism" is garbage, you all don't have a clue what you believe.


This is why you spend your time hurling insults, instead of intellectually articulating your position. *shrug*
 
Except for the non-aggression part; right wing conservatives are usually chicken hawks.


Social freedom
Economic freedom
Non-aggression
Non-coercion.


soc called "left-libertarians" shun economic freedom as well as non-coercion. Therefore NOT libertarian.
 
Your question is its own answer, for therein you reveal the two fallacies that cause right-libertarians to mistake authority for liberty: the homesteading principle and the homesteading hypothesis.

The homesteading principle is of course the demand that, when one improves, encloses, or otherwise rubs an avaricious scent on land, others be permanently obliged to respect one's sovereignty over the realm thereby defined. Originally, the homesteading principle was based on the faulty, labor theory of land value, by which property could emerge by the reciprocated consent of those governed by it and thus ultimately be libertarian; however, modern right-libertarians have retreated it to the axiomatic level, where it is safe against reason entirely.

The homesteading hypothesis, on the other hand, is the assumption that homesteading is indeed the origin of property. Unlike the homesteading principle, the homesteading hypothesis doesn't command right-libertarians' constant faith. When pressed, any right-libertarian with at least a high school education will admit that the true origin of property is conquest, shrug it off as the past being past (as if we were the ones who brought up history in the first place!), and then, the minute you give their defining amnesia half a chance, return to mythology as in the "simplest example" (as if homesteading were distinguished by its simplicity and not its unreality) above.



Yeah, and? If I lay claim to unclaimed land, or aquire it through purchase, I see no issue. you are talking about a different philosophy that is not libertarian but collectivist in nature. You can have your collective co-op land lease whatever, but to call it "libertarianism" is theft of a label for an odd anti-libertarian ideology.

Who, in the "left-libertarian" society tells you and me where we are permitted to live?
 
Loaded question. You first have to establish that individuals actually have an inherent natural right to exploit and monopolize land and the natural resources found on it at all. This is the challenge most right-wing property theorists (whether "right-libertarian" or otherwise) have not actually gotten around to taking.



If I don't have right to my land, who does? Who controls it? Who deems what I can or cannot do with it? How is that "libertarian"?
 
Why, the land belonged to the nobles. It is in fact the institution of private landed property from which it is that nobility arose. Surely you have no problem with a private land owner determining what rules his guests have to abide by.


North Korea has universal health care, therefore the left is like north korea. This is dumb.
 
North Korea has universal health care, therefore the left is like north korea. This is dumb.

Yeah, but the problem With North Korea is not universal Health care .... it's a wrong analogy ...
 
Yeah, but the problem With North Korea is not universal Health care .... it's a wrong analogy ...



The problem with people calling actual libertarians "right wing conservitives" is we don't care where you stick your peen, want to end coporate welfare, legalize drugs, free non violent drug offenders, etc. etc. etc.


It's a perfect anaolgy as they are both utterly stupid.
 
I hold, and I assume you do as well, that each individual has the highest and most legitimate claim to his own physical body. Thus violations of one's body, such as murder, rape, assault, and, yes, slavery, are a violation of one's rights.



No, it can't be logically reduced into a justification for chattel slavery. Because people are not land.

So you do not believe that people own their own bodies?

Because if they do, they can sell themselves into slavery, unless you're one of those statists who think the govt should prohibit people's freedom to exclusively control their own property
 
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