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Left Libertarianism

An in-law of mine was recently arrested for killing a man because the victim stole his cell phone. Was my relative acting defensively or aggressively? Should the prosecution drop the charges of murder?

It depends on the circumstances, but that wasn't what I was referring to, and I'm pretty sure you damn well realize that.
 
So if I discover a continent I can declare myself king over that continent? Sounds pretty un-libertarian...

Libertarians hold that one acquires ownership of an unused resource by being the first to make use of it. Thus, if you established a homestead and put some sort of visible border around the part you use, then only that would be your property. However, if you were all alone on a continent there would be no need for a concept of ownership, since there is no chance of another person wishing to use that resource.
 
If that is so, then please explain to me whether this woman should be allowed to own the Sun.

Unless she homesteaded some portion of it, no.

Here's the general geo-libertarian test to determine rightful ownership: Did you make it/build it? If yes, then it is yours. Did you make a voluntary exchange with the original creator? If yes, then it is yours. If no, (such as the case with natural resources, land, water, air, electromagnetic field, etc.) then you must pay for its full market value for exclusive access.
 
I think he is trying to say that there is no one owner but shared ownership where the person occupying the land probably has a higher percentage of the say but veto power is shared the owner and the community. Nobody exclusive individual has sole rights. It's a model that your brand of libertarianism doesn't seem to address

Thanks. Yes, there is no one owner but shared ownership. The property is jointly owned by all the people.
 
They don't necessarily get to make the rules. These are the rules they propose.

They are very broad rules. How do we determine "original ownership" rights? Leave a footprint? Plant a flag? Kill a native?
 
The power/utilities would be cut off. And then community may revoke the title and sell it to another who WILL pay the fee.

Sorry buddy, but nothing in life is free.

Wait...isn't the power and utilities different bills? If I'm paying the power and utilities bills why would those services be taken from me?
 
It depends on the circumstances, but that wasn't what I was referring to, and I'm pretty sure you damn well realize that.

You were referring trespassing which, to most right-libertarians, is a form of theft and justification for killing.
 
They are very broad rules. How do we determine "original ownership" rights? Leave a footprint? Plant a flag? Kill a native?

Every acre of land in the US is currently owned, so that is not a necessary question.

But in a previous post I explained how libertarians think unowned resources might be assigned ownership: by using them.
 
You were referring trespassing which, to most right-libertarians, is a form of theft and justification for killing.

Really? Justification for killing? Says who?
 
Wait...isn't the power and utilities different bills? If I'm paying the power and utilities bills why would those services be taken from me?

Those companies are usually subsidized by the taxpayers.
 
Really? Justification for killing? Says who?

Oh c'mon, it happens every day (look at farmers and the South, especially). Right libertarians are amongst the first to defend such actions.
 
Oh c'mon, it happens every day (look at farmers and the South, especially). Right libertarians are amongst the first to defend such actions.

Not me nor (I'm sure) lizzie.
 
Libertarians hold that one acquires ownership of an unused resource by being the first to make use of it. Thus, if you established a homestead and put some sort of visible border around the part you use, then only that would be your property.

And who determines how much work is required? Who determines whether the amount of land roped off is rational?


However, if you were all alone on a continent there would be no need for a concept of ownership, since there is no chance of another person wishing to use that resource.

Exactly, but most Right Libertarians think they live on their own personal island where nothing they do impacts others around them.
 
Unless she homesteaded some portion of it, no.

Most privately owned land was never homesteaded yet you Right Libertarians defend them all the same.
 
But in a previous post I explained how libertarians think unowned resources might be assigned ownership: by using them.

And yet, most privately owned land in the world is unused/absentee-owned.
 
You were referring trespassing which, to most right-libertarians, is a form of theft and justification for killing.

I just hate it when people play stupid. This is my original statement:



It was very obviously about a home invasion, and not someone walking onto your land.

It's pretty obvious what I was talking about. Home invasion. Someone entering your home against your will. I will readily use force against someone who enters my home forcibly.
 
I'm criticizing Noam Chomsky, with whom I am very familiar with.



Is that right?

Look back to my original statement, that absent property rights, there can be no rights at all; what does Chomsky say on this?

{ Modern political theory stresses Madison's belief that "in a just and a free government the rights both of property and of persons ought to be effectually guarded." But in this case too it is useful to look at the doctrine more carefully. There are no rights of property, only rights to property that is, rights of persons with property. Perhaps I have a right to my car, but my car has no rights. The right to property also differs from others in that one person's possession of property deprives another of that right if I own my car, you do not; but in a just and free society, my freedom of speech would not limit yours. The Madisonian principle, then, is that government must guard the rights of persons generally, but must provide special and additional guarantees for the rights of one class of persons, property owners.}

Consent Without Consent Profit Over People Noam Chomsky

So we see instantly that Chomsky is an opponent of property rights, ergo an opponent of liberty. As Murray Rothbard pointed out, one cannot exist absent the other.

Rothbard's assertion aside, your quote confirms my point that Chomsky has a realistic notion of property as a zero-sum transfer of liberty from the property-abider to the property-owner, one clearly not defensible on any fruit-of-one's-labor grounds, as the resource precedes the one and thus his labor.

Ayn Rand pointed out that contradiction cannot exist in reality. The claim of Chomsky to be an "Anarcho-Socialist" is a contradiction. One does not advocate anarchism by enslaving his fellow man. Rothbardian Anarcho-Capitalism is rational in that the free man is unhindered in free trade, but socialism by nature trades need for goods, meaning that the producer of goods must be coerced. Chomsky attempts to hide the coercion by claiming "social pressure" rather than state violence force the producers to yield their efforts to the consumers absent trade of value.

Notes on Anarchism, by Noam Chomsky (Excerpted from For Reasons of State)

But this is absurdity, it is merely the trade of one form of force for another - a form of force destined to fail, resulting in the same result of the whip in the hand of the state to force producers to work for their own injury rather than their own good. The flaw in Chomsky's scheme is simply the mind of a free man. Chomsky seeks to create a system where shame will motivate producers to throw their efforts into a pot to be shared by those who produce nothing, but what of the man who declares that he has no shame in producing for his own benefit, rather than the benefit of his lessers? Did not Lenin also try social pressure? Yet the gun and the whip, the Gulag and the death camp, were what motivated the enslaved.

Capitalists haven't armed dogs to escort the disobedient to prisons? And no, Lenin didn't try social pressure, at least not the kind Chomsky referred to, as what Chomsky referred to isn't something that can be tried by a self-described state capitalist a thousand miles away from those he tries it on. Lenin tried propaganda, to be sure, but that path had already been paved by the UK and the US, and the use of informants is just standard policing. Chomsky was referring rather to the gift economies that anthropologists have proven to be our ancestry. He is well aware of the potential for social pressures to be oppressive, as is clear in his critique of the Israeli kibbutzim, but one does not escape oppression by submitting to a dictator called an owner.

What Chomsky does not grasp is that man cannot be half-slave and half-free, contradiction cannot exist in reality. A free man will rebel against the yoke you seek to put on him.

But isn't that exactly what Chomsky is saying? Each property spook is a diminution of liberty (you're free, except don't touch that). You add all those diminutions up, and you're left, if you have no property, with an imprisonment of an even more extreme kind than that of those we call prisoners. I mean, at least a proper prisoner has enough space to fit himself, and even pace around; one without property is in every spot a trespasser.
 
And who determines how much work is required? Who determines whether the amount of land roped off is rational?

Libertarians vary on how disputes between parties might be resolved. But yes, if someone disputed a homesteader's claim, there would have to be a legal process to resolve the dispute.

Exactly, but most Right Libertarians think they live on their own personal island where nothing they do impacts others around them.

Not most I read. Do you have any particular authors in mind?
 
The power/utilities would be cut off. And then community may revoke the title and sell it to another who WILL pay the fee.

Sorry buddy, but nothing in life is free.

And who is this "fee" paid to? "the people," i.e. the ruling elite?
 
They were big enough to work with business men to grow private industry, they were big enough to build a railroad system all across the country, and they were damn well big enough to have bankers go to the capital and try to enact the federal reserve system in the late 19th century only to fall short and go with the gold standard.

They were effective on the Eastern Sea Board in a couple of major cities, and irrelevant in the rest of the nation.
 
Rothbard's assertion aside, your quote confirms my point that Chomsky has a realistic notion of property as a zero-sum transfer of liberty from the property-abider to the property-owner, one clearly not defensible on any fruit-of-one's-labor grounds, as the resource precedes the one and thus his labor.

Here we get into the circular logic of socialists, and we drop the pretense that this is anything other than run of the mill socialism.

Chomsky attempts to hide the base nature by offering some platitudes to the concept of property, which to the socialist means personal effects, not land or buildings. The argument is something along the lines that thousands of years ago there was no title, thus ownership was established by force, therefor no one can actually own land and all must be shared in common. In practical terms, the state owns all land and the proles live at the benevolence of the rulers of the state.

Ah, but you say Chomsky rejects the totalitarian state - if so, then who do the proles rent the property they wish to live upon or build a business upon? According to Chomsky, it's "the people." But who are 'the people?" Why, none other than the rulers of the state.

Contradictions cannot exist in reality, when a socialist offers a contradiction, check the underlying premise. The circular logic of Chomsky turns full circle to the omnipresent state as owner of all things. But Chomsky benevolently says I can own my own watch, what a peach. I can't own the house I put that watch in, so I have no security in ownership, the state as owner of my house can seize it and all that is in it at a whim, so the idea that I have "property rights" even of personal property is a farce.

Capitalists haven't armed dogs to escort the disobedient to prisons? And no, Lenin didn't try social pressure, at least not the kind Chomsky referred to, as what Chomsky referred to isn't something that can be tried by a self-described state capitalist a thousand miles away from those he tries it on. Lenin tried propaganda, to be sure, but that path had already been paved by the UK and the US, and the use of informants is just standard policing. Chomsky was referring rather to the gift economies that anthropologists have proven to be our ancestry. He is well aware of the potential for social pressures to be oppressive, as is clear in his critique of the Israeli kibbutzim, but one does not escape oppression by submitting to a dictator called an owner.

Capitalism is the free exchange of goods in an uncoerced market.

Police, armed or unarmed are not necessary to the function of the market. Force is not a component of production, the way it is in socialism. Under capitalism, men work for their own profit, under socialism, men work to escape punishment. Clearly force is required in the latter situation, but not the former.

The capitalist works to earn better food, better cars, a better house, etc. The socialist works to receive less lashes, to be less likely sent to the death camps, etc.

But isn't that exactly what Chomsky is saying? Each property spook is a diminution of liberty (you're free, except don't touch that). You add all those diminutions up, and you're left, if you have no property, with an imprisonment of an even more extreme kind than that of those we call prisoners. I mean, at least a proper prisoner has enough space to fit himself, and even pace around; one without property is in every spot a trespasser.

You are free to earn and buy property which you can do as you please with. You cannot infringe on the liberty of others to control THEIR property, but you are free to use yours as you please.

Chomsky envisions no property, one is always a tenant of the unnamed master called "the people," a euphemism from time immortal for the ruling elite.
 
You are free to earn and buy property which you can do as you please with. You cannot infringe on the liberty of others to control THEIR property, but you are free to use yours as you please.

Chomsky envisions no property, one is always a tenant of the unnamed master called "the people," a euphemism from time immortal for the ruling elite.

Iirc, several years ago, I saw an interview with (I believe) Stalin's daughter, who talked about how their family lived in opulent splendor, while the people starved. She also made some comment along the lines of this idea: anytime someone tells you that everything should be good for the state, they are planning to become "the state".
 
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