LDS Church will stay the course in opposing gay marriage

[winston53660]

We probably would, but we've already abused the hell out of Islam in previous months. There are only so many threads you can post on Aisha.

Hey can we do the Raeliens next?

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Can't we do scientology again? It was so much fun.

 

[CriticalThought]

I grew up with the LDS. I can't say I'm offended by their position on same sex marriage. They are a fruity bunch but they are entitled to their beliefs and lifestyle.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

I agree. A claim to "right" and "wrong" is a normative statement. ... We may disagree that vaccinating children is "good" but it is objective and verifiable that it prevents the spread of disease.

Certainly. However, government policies which mandate vaccination are a form of government intrusion into private lives and contrary to the principle that parents are responsible for their childrens' welfare. The benefits of vaccination must be weighed against our belief in those principles. Morality, and thus the law, is inevitably based on the dynamic equilibrium of myriad normative statements-- thus statements of fact, objective and verifiable facts, are valueless unless they are used in conjunction with normative statements. Normative statements may be subjective-- and even arbitrary-- but they are more essential to political or moral arguments than objective statements.

Finding common objective values and goals is key. If we agree on such values or goals then it is likely that we can find and even agree on objective means by which to achieve them.

Certainly, but it must be remembered that consensus and compromise are not the goals. We are each possessed of a singular moral vision for the world; our goal is to implement as much of that vision as our personal power allows. Compromise is only valid as a tool that allows us to move closer to that goal.

 

[scourge99]

Certainly. However, government policies which mandate vaccination are a form of government intrusion into private lives and contrary to the principle that parents are responsible for their childrens' welfare.

If I strictly agree that:
1) the government should not intrude into private lives
2) parents are the only one's responsible for their children's welfare

Then I would probably agree.

The benefits of vaccination must be weighed against our belief in those principles.

I agree.

Morality, and thus the law, is inevitably based on the dynamic equilibrium of myriad normative statements-- thus statements of fact, objective and verifiable facts, are valueless unless they are used in conjunction with normative statements.

I agree.

Normative statements may be subjective-- and even arbitrary-- but they are more essential to political or moral arguments than objective statements.

I disagree. Our values are NOT arbitrary. As similar beings with nearly identical emotions, feelings, and physiology we have far more things in common than not. All humans can come to these same basic conclusions:

1 Every person has their own feelings and desires, and they are more or less similar.
2 I fundamentally desire to pursue happiness and avoid pain and suffering.
3 Other people have these same basic desires, and these desires are valuable to them.
4 With all else being equal, it is better for people to be happy than not be happy.
5 Conflicts arise mainly because people's desire to be happy and avoid suffering conflict with each other.

A few natural consequences arise from these axioms:
1. All else being equal, it is wrong to needlessly inflict suffering on people.
2. Except for the case of self-preservation, with all else being equal, it is best to avoid killing other people (on the assumption that they don't want to be killed).


Unless you feel no empathy (like a small percentage of our society known as psychopaths) then these are fairly undeniable.

Certainly, but it must be remembered that consensus and compromise are not the goals. We are each possessed of a singular moral vision for the world; our goal is to implement as much of that vision as our personal power allows. Compromise is only valid as a tool that allows us to move closer to that goal.

And such egoism denies empathy, love, and kinship that most humans instinctively seek.

Do you not cry when you watch certain movies? Do you not cringe when you see an ugly wound? Do you not love anyone but yourself? These commonalities are the foundations for what binds together society, friends, and family. These are what make us human and not logical automatons.

 

[Moot]

Apostle: Same-sex attraction can change | The Salt Lake Tribune

What an arrogant, ignorant and dangerous thing for a church leader to say. Now the sheep will use that as a license to threaten more Gays with death threats like they did up in Idaho. How does Baker justify making such a claim when even Jesus said that some homosexuals were born that way? So apparently Jesus is second fiddle to a Mormon leader, is that it?

On Prop 8, the Mormon leaders sent out letters to the all their bishopric to ask, nay demand their fold donate to the Prop 8 anti-Gay cause. And donate they did, some even emptied out their 401ks. So is it any wonder Utah is number one in bankruptcy?

This incessant need of the church to demand their fold to give beyond their means is the most insideous aspect of the LDS church. Case in point, poor members in Brazil who didn't have enough money to donate to help build a new temple, so they pulled out their gold fillings to help pay for it. Former President Faust was so moved that he bought the fillings from the peasants and then used them to show the fold back home the sacrifice the peasants had made as a testiment to their faith. Meanwhile the church is making billions off its shopping malls, orange groves, mega farms, ranches, real estate investments, radio and TV stations, etc. The Mormon church is nothing but a corporate racket run by theives who prey on their own kind.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

If I strictly agree that:
1) the government should not intrude into private lives
2) parents are the only one's responsible for their children's welfare

Then I would probably agree.

I'm not opposed to mandatory vaccinations. I merely used them as an example, and invoked the most common arguments against them.

I disagree. Our values are NOT arbitrary. As similar beings with nearly identical emotions, feelings, and physiology we have far more things in common than not. All humans can come to these same basic conclusions:

1 Every person has their own feelings and desires, and they are more or less similar.
2 I fundamentally desire to pursue happiness and avoid pain and suffering.
3 Other people have these same basic desires, and these desires are valuable to them.
4 With all else being equal, it is better for people to be happy than not be happy.
5 Conflicts arise mainly because people's desire to be happy and avoid suffering conflict with each other.

A few natural consequences arise from these axioms:
1. All else being equal, it is wrong to needlessly inflict suffering on people.
2. Except for the case of self-preservation, with all else being equal, it is best to avoid killing other people (on the assumption that they don't want to be killed).

The Devil is in the details, however. All else is rarely equal, and a certain degree of suffering is not only inevitable, it is necessary for the development of character and resilience. Not to mention, conflict is not solely the result of mutually exclusive interests, it is something inherent to human nature, something that humanity needs and instinctively seeks the same as it would seek out companionship or sex. Ecologically, we are an apex predator; if we do not kill each other, nothing else will, and in the absence of evolutionary pressure a species regresses to the mean.

I feel empathy for others, in a vague sort of way, but I am forced by higher concerns to reject your values.

And such egoism denies empathy, love, and kinship that most humans instinctively seek.

Not at all. Love and kinship are included in my moral vision, and it is out of love that I seek to impose it. I want what's best for everyone, but pain and sacrifice are necessary parts of life.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

So apparently Jesus is second fiddle to a Mormon leader, is that it?

In practice, hasn't this ALWAYS been the case?

 

[Ned Racine]

What an arrogant, ignorant and dangerous thing for a church leader to say. Now the sheep will use that as a license to threaten more Gays with death threats like they did up in Idaho. How does Baker justify making such a claim when even Jesus said that some homosexuals were born that way? So apparently Jesus is second fiddle to a Mormon leader, is that it?

On Prop 8, the Mormon leaders sent out letters to the all their bishopric to ask, nay demand their fold donate to the Prop 8 anti-Gay cause. And donate they did, some even emptied out their 401ks. So is it any wonder Utah is number one in bankruptcy?

This incessant need of the church to demand their fold to give beyond their means is the most insideous aspect of the LDS church. Case in point, poor members in Brazil who didn't have enough money to donate to help build a new temple, so they pulled out their gold fillings to help pay for it. Former President Faust was so moved that he bought the fillings from the peasants and then used them to show the fold back home the sacrifice the peasants had made as a testiment to their faith. Meanwhile the church is making billions off its shopping malls, orange groves, mega farms, ranches, real estate investments, radio and TV stations, etc. The Mormon church is nothing but a corporate racket run by theives who prey on their own kind.

Okay - I'd like to see some proof of any LDS Harrasment of the opposition during the Prop 8 campaign time , so it can be analyzed. All the hostility was on the other side and no one was forced to contribute anything - including their time.

There was Vandalism and Harrasment from various Leftists towards the Church however and this was based on the contributions public listings which were used to cause others at least a degree of discomfort.

 

[Ned Racine]

In practice, hasn't this ALWAYS been the case?

NO, YOU as an individual know this is not true, but you go along with this kind of crap because you KNOW that many Progressive's out there do automatcally out of ignorance link in their minds the Main LDS Church with a character like Warren Jetts. You know better, but you won't stand as an individual.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

NO, YOU as an individual know this is not true, but you go along with this kind of crap because you KNOW that many Progressive's out there do automatcally out of ignorance link in their minds the Main LDS Church with a character like Warren Jetts. You know better, but you won't stand as an individual.

Do you mean Warren Jeffs? I can't help but think you aren't as familiar with this subject as you claim.

 

[Ned Racine]

Do you mean Warren Jeffs? I can't help but think you aren't as familiar with this subject as you claim.

YOU went along with an outright lie earlier. You KNOW that the LDS Church in it's history has never put any leader above Jesus Christ. You chose to do so because it was in your mind probably cute and you still carry a lot of baggage from those awful days of the 3 hour bloc I suppose.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

YOU went along with an outright lie earlier. You KNOW that the LDS Church in it's history has never put any leader above Jesus Christ. You chose to do so because it was in your mind probably cute and you still carry a lot of baggage from those awful days of the 3 hour bloc I suppose.

Most LDS doctrine comes from Joseph Smith. Thus, one can conclude that his relative importance is higher than that of Christ.

 

[Ned Racine]

NO, You cannot conclude that because it is clearly not true, and I'm beginning to doubt how long you were actually immersed in the Church. More to the point, WHY can't you just admit that you simply responded a bit earlier to someone else's entry without thinking it out??

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Baptisms for the dead - Joseph Smith

Telestial, Terrestial & Celestial kingdoms - Joseph Smith

Endowments & temples - Joseph Smith

Eternal marriage - Joseph Smith

Exaltation (men can progress to godhood) - Joseph Smith

Plural Marriage - Joseph Smith

Melchizedek Priesthood - Joseph Smith

Mark of Cain - Joseph Smith

Word of Wisdom - Joseph Smith

Water for sacrament- Joseph Smith (Christ used wine).

Multiple gods - Joseph Smith

God was once human - Joseph Smith

God is flesh & blood - Joseph Smith

Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer - Joseph Smith

Bible isn't translated correctly - Joseph Smith

Jews in America (Nephites) - Joseph Smith

Pre-existence of man - Joseph Smith

Salvation through obedience to ordinances - Joseph Smith

I can keep going, if you'd like.

Now, feel free to point out the doctrines of the LDS church that came from the new testment and/or Jesus Christ.

I can think of one: Baptism by immersion.

 

[Ned Racine]

Is the name of the Organization"The Church of Joseph Smith and Latter Day Saints"

Now do you get it ?????

 

[winston53660]

Is the name of the Organization"The Church of Joseph Smith and Latter Day Saints"

Now do you get it ?????

The name of the former East Germany was the The German Democratic Republic. Does that mean it was democratic?

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Is the name of the Organization"The Church of Joseph Smith and Latter Day Saints"

Now do you get it ?????

What doctrines did Christ contribute to your belief system? Surely you can name one, besides baptism by immersion?

 

[scourge99]

Baptisms for the dead - Joseph Smith

Telestial, Terrestial & Celestial kingdoms - Joseph Smith

Endowments & temples - Joseph Smith

Eternal marriage - Joseph Smith

Exaltation (men can progress to godhood) - Joseph Smith

Plural Marriage - Joseph Smith

Melchizedek Priesthood - Joseph Smith

Mark of Cain - Joseph Smith

Word of Wisdom - Joseph Smith

Water for sacrament- Joseph Smith (Christ used wine).

Multiple gods - Joseph Smith

God was once human - Joseph Smith

God is flesh & blood - Joseph Smith

Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer - Joseph Smith

Bible isn't translated correctly - Joseph Smith

Jews in America (Nephites) - Joseph Smith

Pre-existence of man - Joseph Smith

Salvation through obedience to ordinances - Joseph Smith

I can keep going, if you'd like.

Now, feel free to point out the doctrines of the LDS church that came from the new testment and/or Jesus Christ.

I can think of one: Baptism by immersion.

How is this any different from protestant christianity which is based on the writings and interpretations of Paul and not jesus?

Ned, like Protestants, can simply make the argument that god/jesus/holy_ghost "inspired" them thus anything Smith/Paul proclaims is from god.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

How is this any different from protestant christianity which is based on the writings and interpretations of Paul and not jesus?

Ned, like Protestants, can simply make the argument that god/jesus/holy_ghost "inspired" them thus anything Smith/Paul proclaims is from god.

He can certainly claim it was god-inspired, but he can't claim that these doctrines were delivered via Jesus Christ. If 90% of your church's doctrine comes via Joseph Smith, not Jesus Christ, how important is Jesus Christ, in practical reality?

Jesus Christ is important in name only.

 

[Ned Racine]

Just for the Record Christ asked a few Guys "If they were Without Sin" and obviously they were not.On that basis most Fair Minded decent people aka Real Christians accept Two Principle's - that We are All part of a flawed Humanity needing some degree of Forgiveness for nearly all our days and that Judgements Concerning others EVEN if a part of a long Standing set of ingrained Law needs to be tempered with some marcy based on the acceptance of number one.

This doesn't mean that "Anything Goes" or that some should not be held accountable. What it means is that We accept that "There but for the Grace of God Go I' . These days Some simply do not see it that way which is the one human characteristic that has not changed. This includes these days a few Professional Child Advocates, Ultra Feminist accusers and Perpetual Pervert Hunters.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

Can gay men go to the Celestial Kingdom?

 

[Ned Racine]

Can gay men go to the Celestial Kingdom?

Not My Call obviously. We either accept that there is a Greater Wisdom out there , and it will be fairer than any of us can be or we don't - and as YOU know there are 3 Kingdom's and the reason some don't make the top one is because they'd be more at home in one of the lower Two. This means that there is a continuation for everybody unless they are the "Absolute Worst of the Worst" - a Hard category to get into BTW.

This of course is in opposition to other Christian beliefs , and of course there is the Waiting areas of Paradise and Spirit Prison which is the LDS Chuch's ecompassing the Heaven/Hell view I suppose??

 

[Catz Part Deux]

and of course there is the Waiting areas of Paradise and Spirit Prison which is the LDS Chuch's ecompassing the Heaven/Hell view I suppose??

I prefer Hell's Kitchen. The food is better.

 

[Coronado]

Not My Call obviously. We either accept that there is a Greater Wisdom out there , and it will be fairer than any of us can be or we don't - and as YOU know there are 3 Kingdom's and the reason some don't make the top one is because they'd be more at home in one of the lower Two. This means that there is a continuation for everybody unless they are the "Absolute Worst of the Worst" - a Hard category to get into BTW.

This of course is in opposition to other Christian beliefs , and of course there is the Waiting areas of Paradise and Spirit Prison which is the LDS Chuch's ecompassing the Heaven/Hell view I suppose??

But what of the doctrine of Precedence? As In, should The precedence of the LDS Church Decide to allow homoSexuals into the celestial Kingom, would Said doctrine Prevail?