Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail[W:228]

[Henrin]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

Oh good grief. There are plenty of options if she will work with them.

Quit.

Stay and let others do the "sinful" job.

Any reasonable accommodation that will allow the licenses to be given to gay people.

They have no law to back their actions so there is good reason to work with them. Treating a court ruling as law is invalid nonsense and gives the court no standing in their actions.

 

[Anthony60]

Morning Anthony
It is OK to be wrong, once you realize the error of your ways, then you can set yourself upon the right path.

Yes, I hope the Supreme Court gets that message!

 

[Anthony60]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

Eh, they're just a white supremacist group pretending to be a group of constitutional literalists.

They really should have been wiped out at the bundy ranch.

Now that you mention it, doesn't that seem to be the policy theses days? You don't like the views of others? Let's wipe them out!

 

[notquiteright]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

She should not have been arrested when impeachment was the proper coarse of action. She looks like a martyr and gays look like the Taliban. So please save your platitudes and try to stay current with the conversation. Thanks.

More overhype, imagine that... :roll:

Impeachment MAYBE a long term solution, but a long POLITICAL process isn't what is going on. The Judge Ms Davis had been appealing to ruled she was in contempt of the COURT. Ms. Davis WENT TO that court in an attempt to stop SSM in 'her' county.

SHE started the court proceedings, when she didn't like the result SHE refused to obey... it's really quite simple. Would you rather the court be ignored and we wait for some political solution that BTW has a REALLY great chance of demi-goding this into martyrdom...

Only the truly virulent anti- SSM oafs would make the comparison of Gays demanding EQUAL access to what the REST OF US take for granted and the taliban (though it seems only a few supposed 'supporters' of SSM mention that in here- go figure) :roll:

So save your platitudes and try to stay current with what is REALLY happening... eace

 

[JANFU]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

Now that you mention it, doesn't that seem to be the policy theses days? You don't like the views of others? Let's wipe them out!

Is that funny ha ha or Ha Ha???

 

[year2late]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

Although I do think she should be issuing the licenses or quit....I do understand she is trying to hold to her beliefs.

Where she loses all compassion from me is when she tries to make sure the licenses are not issued by her office at all. That jumps from not doing something you feel is against your religion to imposing your religious views on others.

Kim needs to get ready for being the Democrat Darling of CPAC. Anyone want to make bets on when she will start profiting with her book deals and speaking engagements?:lamo

 

[Chomsky]

Amazing, approx 600 pages, in different threads, about this person who has no legal rights to refuse marriage licenses.

Which of course everyone knows, but some don't like and therefore attempt to justify!

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

Do you support the practice of Sharia law in the United States?

Do you support government employees at local, state, or federal level practicing Sharia law in the commission of their jobs?

Heh, and I've written a few comparable examples in an attempt to ferret out people's true opinions on the matter and people avoid them like the plague, lol.

--what happens if a Christian county clerk decides not to recognize and register the birth certificate or an adoption certificate of the child of gay parents?

--what happens if a county/state judge converts to Islam and refuses to award primary custody of the children in a divorce to to *any* mothers?

--what happens if the state director of motor vehicles converts to Islam and refuses to allow DMV employees to issue driver's licenses to women?

--what happens when a Hindu county commissioner refuses to allow any business permits to restaurants that sell beef?

Nobody touches these with a ten foot pole. One person did and just said that none of those would get the same support that Kim Davis is getting. As if that matters when it comes to religious freedom OR the law?

*bolded for relevance

Which is why I think it should be obvious to the most casual observer that Ms. Davis actions are not about "religious freedom", as much as they are about "propagating my religious views" onto others.

She is attempting to "control others" in the guise of "her freedom".

I find it particularly hideous & bigoted!

 

[jet57]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

Here's the latest. Pretty funny:




Kim Davis Is About To Get A BIG Surprise In Her Hometown

Anti-gay marriage clerk Kim Davis is about to get a rude awakening in her hometown.

Non-profit organization Planting Peace just erected the above billboard in Davis' hometown of Morehead, Kentucky. The message is plain and simple -- if Davis is going to use Biblical rhetoric to justify her opposition to same-sex marriage, she might want to take a closer look at how else marriage has been redefined in relation to the book's sacred teachings.

 

[Risky Thicket]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

More overhype, imagine that... :roll:

Impeachment MAYBE a long term solution, but a long POLITICAL process isn't what is going on. The Judge Ms Davis had been appealing to ruled she was in contempt of the COURT. Ms. Davis WENT TO that court in an attempt to stop SSM in 'her' county.

SHE started the court proceedings, when she didn't like the result SHE refused to obey... it's really quite simple. Would you rather the court be ignored and we wait for some political solution that BTW has a REALLY great chance of demi-goding this into martyrdom...

Only the truly virulent anti- SSM oafs would make the comparison of Gays demanding EQUAL access to what the REST OF US take for granted and the taliban (though it seems only a few supposed 'supporters' of SSM mention that in here- go figure) :roll:

So save your platitudes and try to stay current with what is REALLY happening... eace

Bingo! Some would love to see exactly that happen.

Sawdust seems to want to overstate, obfuscate, parry and dodge, overword and divert when the answers are quite simple:

1. Davis should not punished/removed from office for attempting to conduct county business within the confines of her religious views.

2. Davis should be punished/removed from office for attempting to conduct county business within the confines of her religious views.

3. Davis should be provided with a workplace accommodation due to the fact that her work conflicts with her religion.

4. Recognizing her arbitrary religious dedications Davis should be permitted to continue to selectively serve the general public in the commission of her duties.

5. Davis can resign.

Davis is obviously not a bright person. She has somehow trampled through a massive pile of religious excreta and religionists are not certain how they want to handle it. They want religion in government. Not all religions, not most religions and probably not even most Christian denominations, they want Christian extremism in government.

They have to be careful what they say and do not say. If they say the wrong thing they may help close the door on Christian extremism in government. It is exactly why Sawdust and others refuse to answer direct questions concerning Sharia law in government. Davis' approach to county level theocracy is little different from Sharia. Therein lies the dilemma for Huckabee, Davis and those who want to have a Christian theocracy in the United States, by hook or by crook. Whether most Americans want it or not.

There are those here who are going to great lengths to separate religion from the issue.

 

[Chomsky]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

Rights are granted to individuals, not groups. Gays were granted the right to marry as individuals. Religious protection laws protect individual rights to believe as they wish. Davis was wrong within the demands of her office but within her right to refuse to participate in something she found morally objectionable. The government recognizes her right to practice her religion but also recognizes that she is not fulfilling her duty as clerk of court. I support her decision to stand by her religious conviction because I don't believe the government should have the power to force anyone to change their religious beliefs. They are protected by the first amendment. I also believe in the rule of law. That's why I believe that Davis should be impeached because her religious beliefs conflicted with her duties after the law changed and I believe jail was a mistake both on moral grounds and because the optics were horrible.

I didn't agree with many of your previous posts, but think this a good post and I agree with it.

However, I'm fine with the contempt charge and subsequent incarceration.

The people (and plaintiffs) needed immediate relief for the business of the people to continue as usual. The impediment to the relief and the moving forward of the business of the people was Ms. Davis' contempt for the judge's order. Shutting down a basic function of government is not something to be taken lightly.

He had no choice - she forced his hand.

 

[Risky Thicket]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

*bolded for relevance

Which is why I think it should be obvious to the most casual observer that Ms. Davis actions are not about "religious freedom", as much as they are about "propagating my religious views" onto others.

She is attempting to "control others" in the guise of "her freedom".

I find it particularly hideous & bigoted!

Everything you said. :thumbs:

 

[JANFU]

Which of course everyone knows, but some don't like and therefore attempt to justify!

It is astounding that those who preach separation of Church & State would allow an elected official to complete their official duties based upon their personal religious belief(s).
Then they want that Official, to have a Religious exemption and scream to high heaven as that is not possible.
Then they scream the SCOTUS decision is unconstitutional.
They scream Marriage is not a Fed area. Yet they supported DOMA.
So it comes down to those opposing are endorsing and defending 2 levels of citizenship, discrimination being acceptable and the right thing to do. Yes the pun was intended.
They want to bring Religious beliefs into how an elected official performs a roes not perform their duties. I see just a tad of theocracy in that, as their hypocrisy is quite clear.

Yet set this gem of an Amendment aside

14th Amendment Summary - What is the fourteenth amendment

Four principles were asserted in the text of the 14th amendment. They were:
1. State and federal citizenship for all persons regardless of race both born or naturalized in the United States was reaffirmed.
2. No state would be allowed to abridge the "privileges and immunities" of citizens.
3. No person was allowed to be deprived of life, liberty,or property without "due process of law."
4. No person could be denied "equal protection of the laws."

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

I learned a long time ago that a tactic used on message board is to encourage whoever your talking to, to spend endless hours pouring through web sites looking for documentation to satisfy someone else. I don't do that anymore. I said they made an accommodation to give Davis an out. I imagine that accommodation was made by statute, which means changing a small part of a law indicating the name of the county could be on the certificate instead of her name. Many states have religious protection statues. I will never know if Kentucky is one but if there is, it would apply. You responded that anyone in her office could sign the certificate. That's true but not the answer to the question. I knew that it was true that her name was printed on the certificate as clerk of court and that's part of what Davis objected to. That's where we are. Chase your tail if you wish or drop it.

So what you "learned" was you can make blanket statements without actually backing them up... Gotcha...

 

[Cephus]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

When she swore her oath there was nothing about the position she found morally objectionable, then the court ruled in favor of gay marriage and her job changed. At that point part of her job became morally objectionable to her and we can agree that she wasn't the right person for the job, but only because of moving goal posts. She had a choice, resign or jail. She took jail. Now the county has a choice. Change her position so that it's no longer morally objectionable to her or impeach her. I would impeach.

There is nothing in the oath that allows her to change her mind and refuse to do the job. The oath is not conditional. Here is what you swear in order to hold this position. If you cannot swear this in good conscience, you must step down.

Of course, the county has a choice but they're not going to take it and you know it. The people are just as religiously backward as Davis herself and the legislature is more interested in re-election than reality. That's why she was held in contempt in the first place. Contempt is a means to change an individual's position. If you don't change, you can sit in jail forever. She's lucky that hasn't happened, although on Monday morning when she goes back to work and turns into psycho-religious-bitch again, you never know. And she'll deserve it because she was only let out of jail on the condition that she not interfere. That will be another promise she's broken. We both know she will not be impeached. She still needs to be dealt with.

 

[sawdust]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

There is nothing in the oath that allows her to change her mind and refuse to do the job. The oath is not conditional. Here is what you swear in order to hold this position. If you cannot swear this in good conscience, you must step down.

Of course, the county has a choice but they're not going to take it and you know it. The people are just as religiously backward as Davis herself and the legislature is more interested in re-election than reality. That's why she was held in contempt in the first place. Contempt is a means to change an individual's position. If you don't change, you can sit in jail forever. She's lucky that hasn't happened, although on Monday morning when she goes back to work and turns into psycho-religious-bitch again, you never know. And she'll deserve it because she was only let out of jail on the condition that she not interfere. That will be another promise she's broken. We both know she will not be impeached. She still needs to be dealt with.

She didn't change her mind, the law changed.

 

[JANFU]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

She didn't change her mind, the law changed.

Laws change all the time. The oath is still valid.

 

[Cephus]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

She didn't change her mind, the law changed.

She didn't swear an oath of office to follow the laws as they were when she swore it, she swore to follow the law period. There was no exception in her oath.

 

[donsutherland1]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

From Reuters:

In a Friday motion filed with the Sixth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals, Davis' attorneys asked that she be allowed to continue banning marriage licenses for her entire office until the case is settled.

Davis' attorneys argued that Bunning's initial order had only covered couples who were suing her. They said he violated her right to due process during her appeal when he expanded his initial injunction to include any couple legally eligible to marry, the filing says.

Kentucky clerk asks for delay in allowing gay marriage licenses | Reuters

Two points:

1. This report indicates that she may yet try to thwart the office's functioning.

2. The argument cited in the second quoted paragraph has no legal basis. It is an amateurish argument that lacks legal merit and that no serious court would be very likely to accept. Although the initial injunction was focused on the couples in question, the injunction was rooted in a law that has universal applicability. Hence, the notion that the Judge cannot issue injunctions beyond the couples in question has no merit whatsoever.

An analogy: Let's say an African American voter sought to vote under the 15th Amendment and a Judge issued an injunction requiring the person(s) attempting to deny him that right to allow him to vote. The Davis legal team's argument would be that the person(s) could legally attempt to block other African Americans from voting, because the injunction in question only concerned a single voter. That is absurd and, IMO, grossly disrespectful to the Court and rule of law. Imagine if a judge had to issue injunctions for every single voter or, in the Davis case, every single couple seeking a marriage license. The whole legal system would grind to a halt.

In the end, there was no due process violation. If anything, the Davis team's argument is frivolous, highlights either a lack of understanding of applicable law or disrespect for the judiciary, and is an attempt to subvert due process.

 

[JANFU]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

From Reuters:



Kentucky clerk asks for delay in allowing gay marriage licenses | Reuters

Two points:

1. This report indicates that she may yet try to thwart the office's functioning.

2. The argument cited in the second quoted paragraph has no legal basis. It is an amateurish argument that lacks legal merit and that no serious court would be very likely to accept. Although the initial injunction was focused on the couples in question, the injunction was rooted in a law that has universal applicability. Hence, the notion that the Judge cannot issue injunctions beyond the couples in question has no merit whatsoever.

An analogy: Let's say an African American voter sought to vote under the 15th Amendment and a Judge issued an injunction requiring the person(s) attempting to deny him that right to allow him to vote. The Davis legal team's argument would be that the person(s) could legally attempt to block other African Americans from voting, because the injunction in question only concerned a single voter. That is absurd and, IMO, grossly disrespectful to the Court and rule of law.

In the end, there was no due process violation. If anything, the Davis team's argument is frivolous, highlights either a lack of understanding of applicable law or disrespect for the judiciary, and is an attempt to subvert due process.

If they try that, then criminal contempt should be considered, she must serve time while she waits for trail - Not sure if that is legal, but deliberate undermine of the law -court order is not something to be trifled with.
Civil contempt is a guarantee. Then substantial fines should ensue including jail time, with very strict conditions for them to be lifted. That would be until the State legislature sits and finds an out. She will not be home for Christmas.
Of course crowd funding would pay for the fines, but the county would - could receive a substantial part of that revenue?? Not sure on that. I think you would have answers to both.

 

[sawdust]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

She didn't swear an oath of office to follow the laws as they were when she swore it, she swore to follow the law period. There was no exception in her oath.

I understand where you're coming from. I'm not that authoritarian. I believe in ownership of self, self determination and the supremacy of the rights that are protected by the Bill of Rights which protect the individual from the tyranny of the majority.

 

[Cephus]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

I understand where you're coming from. I'm not that authoritarian. I believe in ownership of self, self determination and the supremacy of the rights that are protected by the Bill of Rights which protect the individual from the tyranny of the majority.

I don't care what you think, I care what Kim Davis swore when she accepted the position. She guaranteed that she would do the job impartially and without prejudice. She doesn't get to change her mind later. She is accountable to her oath. She has failed to be accountable to her oath. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Risky Thicket]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

She didn't change her mind, the law changed.

Oh, yes, we forgot, the Grandfather Clause for religious extremists. Well that settles it then, Davis can do as she pleases and everyone else is fairly ****ed. :roll:

Oh, I almost forgot do you, Sawdust, support the same exemption for all other government employees who find that the laws have turned on them and their particular religious beliefs after they were hired?

 

[donsutherland1]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

If they try that, then criminal contempt should be considered, she must serve time while she waits for trail - Not sure if that is legal, but deliberate undermine of the law -court order is not something to be trifled with.
Civil contempt is a guarantee. Then substantial fines should ensue including jail time, with very strict conditions for them to be lifted. That would be until the State legislature sits and finds an out. She will not be home for Christmas.
Of course crowd funding would pay for the fines, but the county would - could receive a substantial part of that revenue?? Not sure on that. I think you would have answers to both.

I suspect that she will face criminal contempt of court if she attempts to preclude her office's functioning. Doing so would demonstrate genuine disrespect for the court and, I believe, Judge Bunning signaled that possibility in warning of "consequences" should she disobey the court.

She is presently able to pursue her legal case, doesn't have to personally participate in the licensing process, but may not interfere with it. If she's jailed, I doubt that fines would be levied. Usually, they're levied to bring about compliance. If she's in prison on criminal contempt charges, there would be no further need for measures to bring about compliance, as the office would function in a fashion consistent with the law in her absence.

We'll probably see soon enough what happens on Monday, assuming she reports to work and doesn't resign or take temporary leave before then.

 

[sawdust]

Re: Kentucky Clerk Kim Davis Ordered Released From Jail

I don't care what you think, I care what Kim Davis swore when she accepted the position. She guaranteed that she would do the job impartially and without prejudice. She doesn't get to change her mind later. She is accountable to her oath. She has failed to be accountable to her oath. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'm crushed.