Just had a "real" debate for the first time

Just had my first “real life” political debate over discord with a political streamer. In a bizarre series of events on Twitter where he immediately escalated to calling me a Nazi then saying I should go on his show to debate him. He's a pretty obscure online figure so you probably haven't heard him and the debate is ridiculously long but I thought I'd post it anyway just in case someone is interested.


I think I did fine all things considered. But it is of course MUCH harder to discuss things in real time than over forum posts. There are a lot of things I wish I'd said and some things I wish I hadn't but you have to start somewhere. Any feedback would of course be welcome.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

For those who don't want to watch the video (and I can't blame you) we were arguing on to what degree a military veteran can be a leftist and what they should have to do to be allowed on the left after leaving the military.

 

[Napoleon]

For those who don't want to watch the video (and I can't blame you) we were arguing on to what degree a military veteran can be a leftist and what they should have to do to be allowed on the left after leaving the military.

“Allowed?”

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

For those who don't want to watch the video (and I can't blame you) we were arguing on to what degree a military veteran can be a leftist and what they should have to do to be allowed on the left after leaving the military.

Oh God...ughh.
I will give the video a look but I already wonder if the core of this is the guy claiming that one cannot serve honorably in the military with ANY liberal values whatsoever.
We HAVE a couple of jerks on this board who served who will not hesitate to condemn a veteran's service if they're not hardcore righties.
To me, that's pretty much fighting words, so when I encounter that crap I walk away whereas in the past I cheerfully took the points after telling what they could do with their elitist warrior tribe bullshit.
In my opinion, if you serve, you serve because you are defending both liberal and conservative values because you respect people who might have other points of view.

Several Secretaries of Defense have pointed out that our military has never sworn an oath to a president, because our military members swear an oath to the Constitution, not a MAN.
Several presidents have made that clear as well.
So if our right wing military members insist we should swear a loyalty oath to a specific president, they belong serving in a country where that is the practice, it is not the practice in the USA nor has it ever been, nor shall it ever be.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

“Allowed?”

Oh yes. "Allowed". This guy loves to gatekeep what being a leftist means. If you don't meet his exact beliefs then you are basically a Nazi.

I will give the video a look but I already wonder if the core of this is the guy claiming that one cannot serve honorably in the military with ANY liberal values whatsoever.

He goes much further than that, but he certainly believes that as well. He's quite insufferable in my opinion, but I tried to be polite.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Oh yes. "Allowed". This guy loves to gatekeep what being a leftist means. If you don't meet his exact beliefs then you are basically a Nazi.
He goes much further than that, but he certainly believes that as well. He's quite insufferable in my opinion, but I tried to be polite.

I could only get about twelve minutes in, and I think the problem is, here's a guy who is cerebral to the point of being too far removed from the realities of military service.
For me, arguing the academics is worthless because the decision TO serve is, in many ways both spiritual, emotional (pride or esprit de corps) and that of devotion.
In other words, I'm sitting here listening to some guy who looks like a member of the faculty lounge.
He looks to be about five feet four and all of maybe 115 pounds.

Never mind his political affiliation...haha. Let's look at what drives his legitimacy, or lack thereof, by asking the following of Checkerboard Strangler.
Would you consult a guy who looks like THIS about what shoes your toddler should pick out for her first ballet class?


That's probably a close approximation of ole Checkerino except I wouldn't be caught dead in a speedo, or the obnoxious gold cross.
But would you? Little Muffy starts ballet next week, quick let's ask Checkers what kind of shoes she needs.
Or...should we consult Checkers on his preference in the garden? African Violets or petunias?
You get the point, I guess.
My overall impression is, this guy has no business running any debate about military service not because he is LEFT or RIGHT but because he's what Freddy Blassie used to call a "pencil-necked geek".

I would LOVE to do a "Swinging Butter Knife of Justice" show with a few folks from DP, including you and hopefully a couple of folks who did the two I've already done in the past.
I can't remember if @eohrnberger did one but I am pretty sure @trouble13 was on one of them and something like two or three others.
We had FUN, we got into a lot of subjects.
I don't do these little shows to WIN a debate either, I do them to get some air and sunshine on the subjects themselves and if it turns out I am full of shit on this or that subject, well great, it means I get to reexamine my positions and see where I went wrong.

For the record, the last one I did was not on DP but I DID have Richard Procida from Democracy Under Fire AND Rolando Cano who was running for Mayor of Whittier California, which
was Nixon's birthplace and hometown, by the way.
It was very interesting.
I think it would be great to have you on as a guest.
Just make sure you're wearing clothing! (just a joke)

 

[Juks]

It's a money scam... He is looking for the extreme and hateful "lefties" to donate money to him. I suspect this is due to that the extreme and hateful "righties" are already in demand from everyone else .... Out of his 26.6K subscribers (on Youtube), he probably bought 25,5K . The very reason he engage in debate with you is because he needs every "puff" he can get to reach people....

The views he gives are not neccessary his, but views to accommodate an hateful agenda. So it is really futile to try and reach him. I wouldn't be suprised if you could find him spewing "Trump" propaganda on an older channel.

 

[Juks]

Or, after looking through his videos, he is a Cuban state financed blogger (though the support for Da silva seem out of place). Love his way of using legitim critisism of the wikipedia to question the holodomor.... He is actually a very good propagandanist.

hm He might just be a Stalinist (Marxist-leninist). They are a strange bunch of people... (And please note that they do not believe in democracy)

 

[Nomad4Ever]

He is looking for the extreme and hateful "lefties" to donate money to him.

Definitely. He has a very small core of real fans but obviously he comes off as completely repugnant to most people.

after looking through his videos, he is a Cuban state financed blogger

I actually think if anyone supports him it would be Russia. Cuba doesn't really do stuff like that.

He might just be a Stalinist

Oh, he is.

 

[ChickenTendies]

Leftist infighting, how droll. I think veterans can still be left wing, so long as they understand that the military serves to enforce and further American imperialism. Honestly though, gatekeeping should be in effect for leftist parties. Anything to the right of demsocs shouldn't be allowed in. Can't argue with many of his takes or views though aside from that.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I think veterans can still be left wing, so long as they understand that the military serves to enforce and further American imperialism.

Basically agree. The US hasn't used its military for actual DEFENSE of the USA probably since WWII. Incidentally, also the last war the USA actually won.

I speak out often against the global military (an abomination that was never meant to be IMO) but also understand that that came about as a result of WWII treaty/surrender agreements in large part.

 

[Felis Leo]

Just had my first “real life” political debate over discord with a political streamer. In a bizarre series of events on Twitter where he immediately escalated to calling me a Nazi then saying I should go on his show to debate him. He's a pretty obscure online figure so you probably haven't heard him and the debate is ridiculously long but I thought I'd post it anyway just in case someone is interested.


I think I did fine all things considered. But it is of course MUCH harder to discuss things in real time than over forum posts. There are a lot of things I wish I'd said and some things I wish I hadn't but you have to start somewhere. Any feedback would of course be welcome.

I have not had a chance to watch the video quite yet. Just from what you are saying about him, he really gives me some Gonzalo Lira vibes...i.e., an utterly intellectually dishonest troll who isn't bringing you on to debate actual ideas but to use you as a punching bag to look clever for his equally vapid audience.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

I have not had a chance to watch the video quite yet. Just from what you are saying about him, he really gives me some Gonzalo Lira vibes...i.e., an utterly intellectually dishonest troll who isn't bringing you on to debate actual ideas but to use you as a punching bag to look clever for his equally vapid audience.

Oh yeah. It was an utterly pointless discussion from the perspective of changing his mind. I personally don't think he really believes in much of anything. I viewed it more as an interesting experience and exercise in my own public speaking abilities, which is something I've always struggled with as I tend to get nervous.

It went on much longer than I thought but I had a good time. Though I have gotten a good half dozen messages and counting telling me to kill myself from his audience

 

[VySky]

Oh God...ughh.
I will give the video a look but I already wonder if the core of this is the guy claiming that one cannot serve honorably in the military with ANY liberal values whatsoever.
We HAVE a couple of jerks on this board who served who will not hesitate to condemn a veteran's service if they're not hardcore righties.
To me, that's pretty much fighting words, so when I encounter that crap I walk away whereas in the past I cheerfully took the points after telling what they could do with their elitist warrior tribe bullshit.
In my opinion, if you serve, you serve because you are defending both liberal and conservative values because you respect people who might have other points of view.

Several Secretaries of Defense have pointed out that our military has never sworn an oath to a president, because our military members swear an oath to the Constitution, not a MAN.
Several presidents have made that clear as well.
So if our right wing military members insist we should swear a loyalty oath to a specific president, they belong serving in a country where that is the practice, it is not the practice in the USA nor has it ever been, nor shall it ever be.

Most of the time you serve because the parents wouldn't foot the bill for college. It's more of a necessity in some cases. Not patriotic.

 

[Chomsky]

For those who don't want to watch the video (and I can't blame you) we were arguing on to what degree a military veteran can be a leftist and what they should have to do to be allowed on the left after leaving the military.

The host is an annoying prick, who seems to enjoy being a prick.

What exactly does "Left/Leftist" mean, in the context of this show?

(I actually find the term insulting)

I'm really getting disgusted with the Liberals of today. There just getting to sound whiny and worst of all - rigid and closed minded. How can their be a closed minded Liberal? It strikes me as an oxymoron.

In the Sixties Vets were welcomed into the Anti-War Movement. To be Liberal, is to be accepting, you know - live and let live?

I must admit though the Sixties had their share of calling the Vets "Baby Killers" (something I detested), so this host's attitude is not new. But it seems against Liberalism as I practice it.

As much as I was anti-war back in the day, I can't imagine treating our fighting men with less than respect upon their return. Serving our country is the ultimate service & patriotic act.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Or, after looking through his videos, he is a Cuban state financed blogger (though the support for Da silva seem out of place). Love his way of using legitim critisism of the wikipedia to question the holodomor.... He is actually a very good propagandanist.

hm He might just be a Stalinist (Marxist-leninist). They are a strange bunch of people... (And please note that they do not believe in democracy)

A lot of people in this country who inhabit the ultra-Left trend toward the more authoritarian, although I'll hasten to say that a good many don't even realize that's the direction they're heading.
I'll also add that the further toward the extreme one goes, the more authoritarian the ideology and that applies to both bookends of the spectrum.
Eventually the two extremes begin to arc all the way around until they almost meet.
This is why I am more toward the center-Left, more moderate. I harbor no illusions of any utopias, just a manageable society that is closer on the issues than they care to admit and who are content to act with a little bit of overall unity in the spirit of reasoned compromise where possible.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

What exactly does "Left/Leftist" mean, in the context of this show?

Well…to me a leftist should be a radical implementation of liberalism. Not compromising on equality in any facet of society. I personally think that leads someone to being some kind of anarchist socialist like me. I think democracy control of the economy is as essential as democratic control of government.

Though most people use it to mean either left leaning libertarian types like myself or left authoritarians. Just far enough left that you don’t support liberal institutions anymore.

For this guy being a leftist means being a Marxist Leninist. Basically he agrees with Stalin, Mao, and Castro. He thinks leftist anarchists like myself are practically Nazis. In fact he literally called me a Nazi

(I actually find the term insulting)

I personally identify as a leftist, but I guess if you define it in such a way that it includes human scum like him I can see why.

I'm really getting disgusted with the Liberals of today. There just getting to sound whiny and worst of all - rigid and closed minded. How can their be a closed minded Liberal? It strikes me as an oxymoron.

While there are such liberals, this guy certainly isn’t one. In spite of his use of progressive language you’ll find what he actually is is an authoritarian social conservative closer to someone like Stalin.

As much as I was anti-war back in the day, I can't imagine treating our fighting men with less than respect upon their return. Serving our country is the ultimate service & patriotic act.

I don’t care as much about the patriotic aspect, but regardless the group that suffers the most from our foreign wars are soldiers. Despite what this person thinks most people who joined did so to give their family a better life, protect the people they care about, and because they value the country we’ve built. Not because they are mega racists that want to kill foreigners.

just a manageable society that is closer on the issues than they care to admit

It’s interesting you say that. It’s a really insightful observation but is completely true. A lot of leftists I feel like are more interested in the aesthetic of leftism than actually achieving its values. They are horrified by the idea of looking like a liberal and will do as much as they can to distance themselves from them.

 

[Chomsky]

Well…to me a leftist should be a radical implementation of liberalism. Not compromising on equality in any facet of society. I personally think that leads someone to being some kind of anarchist socialist like me. I think democracy control of the economy is as essential as democratic control of government.

Interesting, because I had no idea Leftist has specific meaning. I assumed it was a derogatory term hurled by Conservatives and the Right in reference to Liberals.

I do get your desire for democratic control of the economy. Just as with our government, I don't want direct democracy though, at least not without Constitutional protection.

Though most people use it to mean either left leaning libertarian types like myself or left authoritarians. Just far enough left that you don’t support liberal institutions anymore.

For this guy being a leftist means being a Marxist Leninist. Basically he agrees with Stalin, Mao, and Castro. He thinks leftist anarchists like myself are practically Nazis. In fact he literally called me a Nazi


I personally identify as a leftist, but I guess if you define it in such a way that it includes human scum like him I can see why.

Yeah, having no idea what it meant I imply assumed it was a generalized insult to all Liberals.

While there are such liberals, this guy certainly isn’t one. In spite of his use of progressive language you’ll find what he actually is is an authoritarian social conservative closer to someone like Stalin.


I don’t care as much about the patriotic aspect, but regardless the group that suffers the most from our foreign wars are soldiers. Despite what this person thinks most people who joined did so to give their family a better life, protect the people they care about, and because they value the country we’ve built. Not because they are mega racists that want to kill foreigners.

With my pops and uncles having served, coming from a blue-collar working-class neighbored, and having some friends that both enlisted and were conscripted into 'Nam, I simply can't fathom the idea of screwing with servicemen. A guy picks up a rifle to lay his life on the line to fight for his country, that's all I need to know - he's good by me. He walks into the bar, he gets a drink on me.

In fact in the neighborhood bar we hung at down the block from my house in the old neighborhood, we prided ourselves in not letting the returning veterans buy a drink - ever. It was a matter of neighborhood pride. A neighborhood service men walked in, you tossed some cash at the barkeep with his name on it. This was Archie Bunker stuff, even for those like myself with long hair and being anti-war.

It’s interesting you say that. It’s a really insightful observation but is completely true. A lot of leftists I feel like are more interested in the aesthetic of leftism than actually achieving its values. They are horrified by the idea of looking like a liberal and will do as much as they can to distance themselves from them.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

Debate topic: Should the nondescript generalized LEFT bow before U.S. Veterans?

Ancillary topics included: Should Leftist organizations create minimum requirements before allowing a military veteran to become one of their members? What degree can a military veteran honestly lean left?

Host: nicknamed “Bad Empanada”; country of origin unknown, age unknown. Apparently bilingual, English and Spanish. Education institution unknown, background sketchy, probably graduate-level degree; emphasis on World History, Politics, Society and Culture.

Podcast medium: uses Patreon.com - dedicated fans pay subscription fees. ”Bad Empanada” describes himself as an academic who, instead of teaching, opted to work full time on his videos. He ekes out a living with his monetized podcast, based in a South American country.

He reeks of Anti-Americanism and Anti-American Military. He disses on a young, Black American with a Marine background, Cooper ‘Harris’ Andrews, who died at age 26 last month fighting as a mercenary in Ukraine.

Marine Veteran Killed Fighting Russian Invaders in Ukraine

Cooper “Harris” Andrews reportedly signed up to fight with the Foreign Legion in Ukraine.

www.thedailybeast.com

He disses on Pat Tillman, who died from fratricide in Afghanistan.

He disses on anyone who joins any branch of the U.S. military.

He disses on “Gitmo” (Guantanamo Bay). Okay, I can agree with shutting it down. Hahaha.

He disses on unions, corporatism and self-interest.

He acted bewildered at the mention of Oswald, who served in the Marines, renounced U.S. citizenship, became a Soviet citizen, changed his mind again, then came back to the United States to live.

He called @Nomad4Ever a Nazi. Huh? I associate @Nomad4Ever with “Best outcome for the most people.” For me, that notion does not reconcile with Nazi behavior.

Enough already! I hung in to the 45’30” mark. “Bad Empanada” can never rise to the stature of Sam Seder or Cenk Uygur.

Debate Winner: @Nomad4Ever

Spend less time in any future debates with this Anti-American pencil-necked Geek!

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Enough already! I hung in to the 45’30” mark. “Bad Empanada” can never rise to the stature of Sam Seder or Cenk Uygur.

I really appreciate you taking the time to go over it. I definitely could have made the debate shorter but I let him pull me into a few side topics that didn’t matter. As you saw he is a pretty disgusting person.

Do you have any feedback for me on my performance?

 

[Trippy Trekker]

I really appreciate you taking the time to go over it. I definitely could have made the debate shorter but I let him pull me into a few side topics that didn’t matter. As you saw he is a pretty disgusting person.

Do you have any feedback for me on my performance?

Bad Empanada reminded me of the flip side of former member, Aliza Tyler, way too much a ‘know-it-all’ and way beyond the realm of realistic and reasonable.

Kudos for stepping up to the plate. Not an easy format to prepare for or sound good. Maybe draw up a script with key points to reference. Try to hit all your points. Keep it short. Try to disarm your host with pleasant comments that do not compromise your integrity, examples: “I see your point (does not mean you agree with it)“ or “thank you for your opinion.”