So when Govt really blows it badly, you say they should pay out anyway? Where specifically is the money supposed to come from?
That makes no sense. Public sector workers pay taxes too. The same taxes you do.
Automatically equating government mistakes to people who are public sector workers is a logical fallacy.
Someone is going to lose out; the retirees, or the tax payers. Why should the tax payers get screwed for someone else's mistake, just so some guy can sit on his ass and keep collecting his pension. Oh, and don't get me started on lazy ass municipal workers, that may not have necessarily earned it.
Sorry, I'm the type of person who believes in honoring commitments.
And I'm not a person who would be able to tell a 65, 75, 85 yr old man or woman that the pension they've been surviving on is now going to disappear. Call it whatever you want, it is what it is.
Using your analogy the government is doing just that to people who worked for a company rather than the government. Those people for the most part have their 401Ks as their pension plan. The government, by holding down interest rates on bonds and CDs in order to be able to pay for the huge debt, have in effect cut the earnings retirees can get on their savings.
Why is there no concern for people who did not work for government?
I didn't blame the public sector workers. They're just doing a job. I'll never fault a man for going to work; no matter who he works for.
I understand and I'm right there with you, but at the same time it's not MY responsibility to honor someone else's promise. I believe that the people who cut the deals should make good on them, or they should go to jail. But, these bailouts have to stop. If we keep bailing people out, then where's the lesson learned? There isn't one and the same mistakes will be repeated over and over again.
What about a 38 y/o? Or a 45 y/o? They can get their asses out there and go back to work.
On your first point, I agree - some people should go to jail if they did not legally and ethically handle their fiduciary duty and pay into the secured pension fund the required payments yearly to ensure the fund was solvent and not subject to bankruptcy proceedings. If these payments weren't made, and the city councillors/mayor etc. spent the money on other more politically advantageous things, toss them all in jail and set an example.
On your second point, you agree with me - I've said that anyone who is still working and not vested in the pension plan should not be made whole as it relates to what their pension payment would be if they got to retire. That said, I do believe that those 38yr olds and 45 yr olds should be entitled to the monies they were legally required to contribute to the pension plan from each paycheck and each year - they are not entitled to matching funds, they never would have got them if they'd quit or been fired before retiring, but they are entitled, similar to monies deposited in a bank, to the money they were forced to contribute.
I just don't believe it should come out of my pocket, is all.
I can't argue with the points you've presented, but it doesn't change how I feel about retired people who are living on a pension they earned legally and fully. The problem lies with a government that didn't fully fund their obligations under the plan they approved and deferred contributions until better days that never came.
I don't know what part of the $18 billion debt Detroit has that is pension related or even if the pension shortfalls are included in that number. Those currently receiving a pension, however, would be my first priority in any bankruptcy settlement going forward.
I agree with you - being in Louisiana, you shouldn't have any skin in this debacle. But the people of Michigan, not just those in Detroit, are on the hook, in my view, because they elected a state government that has some control over cities within the state and should have, long ago, taken over operation of Detroit and set it on the right path. The corruption in the city's government has been known for at least a decade if not more. The people of Michigan elected the state government that didn't act, and now they have to suffer the consequences.
You just don't get it. There is no money to pay them. Money doesn't grow on trees. There simply isn't any. It doesn't matter how much you wish there was, there just isn't.
But But BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CHILLLLDRUNN!!!!!
There just might be an island or two for sale in the Pacific where you can officially cancel your obligations to society and your fellow Americans.
There just might be an island or two for sale in the Pacific where you can officially cancel your obligations to society and your fellow Americans.
I am talking in general, governments shouldn't be able to declare bankruptcy IMHO, of course there is a legal way to or else Detroit would not have filed for it, but morally I think it is the wrong message to send to citizens and other local governments alike.
“It’s cheating, sir, and it’s cheating good people who work,” the judge told assistant state Attorney General Brian Devlin. “It’s also not honoring the (United States) president, who took (Detroit’s auto companies) out of bankruptcy.”
From The Detroit News: Ingham County judge rules Detroit bankruptcy be withdrawn; Schuette appeals | The Detroit News
She could have left this part out and NOT looked like a political hack judge.
“It’s cheating, sir, and it’s cheating good people who work,” the judge told assistant state Attorney General Brian Devlin. “It’s also not honoring the (United States) president, who took (Detroit’s auto companies) out of bankruptcy.”
From The Detroit News: Ingham County judge rules Detroit bankruptcy be withdrawn; Schuette appeals | The Detroit News
Sorry, but my duty is to honor the office of the President, not for what he does as President. Talk about spin! :wow:
I agree with you - being in Louisiana, you shouldn't have any skin in this debacle. But the people of Michigan, not just those in Detroit, are on the hook, in my view, because they elected a state government that has some control over cities within the state and should have, long ago, taken over operation of Detroit and set it on the right path. The corruption in the city's government has been known for at least a decade if not more. The people of Michigan elected the state government that didn't act, and now they have to suffer the consequences.
Or, he could support candidates who won't take money out of his pocket to pay for governmental screw ups. You know, the political solution.
I agree. I am aware of the law cited, but I think is is a get-out-of-jail free card for government entities. They are not required to maintain balanced budgets, they are free to spend against future income and if this policy fails, default. That's ridiculous.
My concern is with the fact our Federal government is doing essentially the same thing with deficit spending and periodic increases of the debt ceiling. This is insane!! Any competent government strives to maintain not only a balanced budget, but to develop a budget surplus for emergencies. The only time deficit spending should ever be allowed is when the nation is involved in a "total war." TOTAL, as in requiring the entire productive might of the country to win; not "easy wars" like Iraq or mere "police actions" like Afghanistan.
Detroit probably did the same thing with funds dedicated to retirement as our Federal government has with Social Security; used them to pay for other government functions in hopes that future revenues would replace and cover them. Look how THAT"S turned out.
There...is...no...money.
Democrats just don't get the concept.
Hello CJ, hope all's well with you!
What would have to happen for the state to remove the City of Detroit government and install a new one?
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