• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Judge rules Detroit bankruptcy filing UNCONSTITUTIONAL[W:584]

haymarket

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
120,934
Reaction score
28,509
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Well somebody is on the job protecting pensions and the rights of workers"

Judge rules Detroit Chapter 9 bankruptcy filing unconstitutional

WXYZ) - A circuit court judge in Ingham County ruled that the City of Detroit’s Chapter 9 bankruptcy filed on Thursday violates the Michigan constitution, according to court orders she issued in three separate cases involving city pensioners.

Ingham County Circuit Court Judge Rosemarie E. Aquilina issued the orders Thursday and Friday, including a temporary restraining order, in an attempt to halt the Chapter 9 filing by Emergency Manager Kevyn Orr. The judge says the bankruptcy filing “…will cause irreparable injury” to the pensioners.

“In order to rectify his unauthorized and unconstitutional actions described above,” wrote Judge Aquilina, the Governor must (1) direct the Emergency Manager to immediately withdraw the Chapter 9 petition filed on July 18, and (2) not authorize any further Chapter 9 filing which threatens to diminish or impair accrued pension benefits.”

The order also includes many hand-written notes through them, including a final note on one order from the judge, which states that the order will “…be transmitted to President Obama.”

The judge will hold a hearing on Monday, at 9 a.m. on the restraining order, which she also writes is in effect until August 22.
Read more: Judge rules Detroit Chapter 9 bankruptcy filing unconstitutional
 

Jack Fabulous

Friend Zone
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 17, 2012
Messages
15,289
Reaction score
5,546
Location
midwest
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
This was expected.

It will get appealed and eventually the bankruptcy will go forward. There will be a lot of back room dealing, a lot of winking and nodding, but in the end the city is bankrupt and there is nothing that anyone can do to change that. All that is left is to divide up the losses. I sincerely hope there is less corruption in the process of dividing up those losses than there was in the process of accumulating them.
 
Last edited:

Sherman123

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
7,774
Reaction score
3,790
Location
Northeast US
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
My understanding was that this was expected to happen in the lower courts, but that eventually this would be overturned as it made its way to higher courts.
 

Jack Fabulous

Friend Zone
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 17, 2012
Messages
15,289
Reaction score
5,546
Location
midwest
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
My understanding was that this was expected to happen in the lower courts, but that eventually this would be overturned as it made its way to higher courts.
Bingo.
 

haymarket

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
120,934
Reaction score
28,509
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
This was expected.

It will get appealed and eventually the bankruptcy will go forward. There will be a lot of back room dealing, a lot of winking and nodding, but in the end the city is bankrupt and there is nothing that anyone can do to change that. All that is left is to divide up the losses. I sincerely hope there is less corruption in the process of dividing up the losses as there was in the process of accumulating them.
Oh I agree that the bankruptcy proceeding will indeed eventually go forward. The question however is what extent pensions will be included. This ruling shows that there are significant legal doubts about the validity and constitutionality of including them in such a procedure.
 

Sherman123

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
7,774
Reaction score
3,790
Location
Northeast US
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
One of the attorney's at our office used to work at a firm that had a lot of municipalities as clients and a few that went through bankruptcy proceedings. He claimed that this is more prone to occur at lower courts in states where Judges have closer ties to their communities and have less over-sight. It's rare for a city or town to actually have it's filings permanently blocked, and if you make it to the State Supreme Courts they almost always back the right of the city and state governments to proceed even if it is with caveats.

This Judge in particular seems to be grandstanding: "Aquilina, a Democrat appointee, also ordered that a copy of her order be sent all the way to the White House, saying that President Obama "bailed out Detroit" and might want to take a closer look, reports the Free Press." (Detroit Bankruptcy Filing Unconstitutional, Must Be Withdrawn, Judge Orders)
 

LowDown

Curmudgeon
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Messages
14,185
Reaction score
8,767
Location
Houston
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Oh I agree that the bankruptcy proceeding will indeed eventually go forward. The question however is what extent pensions will be included. This ruling shows that there are significant legal doubts about the validity and constitutionality of including them in such a procedure.
It doesn't matter whether they are included or not. There's no money to pay them. An orderly bankruptcy is more their favor than the chaos that will result without one.

Eventually you run out of other people's money.
 

Erod

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,357
Reaction score
8,099
Location
North Texas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
There...is...no...money.

Democrats just don't get the concept.
 

Erod

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,357
Reaction score
8,099
Location
North Texas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
and what about the people whose pensions are at risk? do we have to give them nothing?
Nothing minus minus equal nothing. So now taxpayers in non-union states have to pay for them? Wait, don't answer that.
 

fmw

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
12,361
Reaction score
3,358
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
and what about the people whose pensions are at risk? do we have to give them nothing?
Yes. It is a tragedy and it has happened many times in the private sector. Mismanagement is always tragic.
 

specklebang

Discount Philosopher
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
11,524
Reaction score
6,769
Location
Las Vegas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
As long as one printing press is running, we will never run out of money.
imgres.jpeg
 

Erod

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,357
Reaction score
8,099
Location
North Texas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
don't we owe the people who worked all their life, a pension? or do we give them a iou?
Who's we? I don't owe them a thing, and I'm certainly not in line for a pension.

That's the thing with Ponzi schemes. Eventually the music stops.
 

mac

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
22,499
Reaction score
4,266
Location
DC Metro
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Oh I agree that the bankruptcy proceeding will indeed eventually go forward. The question however is what extent pensions will be included. This ruling shows that there are significant legal doubts about the validity and constitutionality of including them in such a procedure.
How does it matter? If there's no money to pay the pensions....what does the fairy tale that they are going to get paid do for you?
 

mac

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
22,499
Reaction score
4,266
Location
DC Metro
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
and what about the people whose pensions are at risk? do we have to give them nothing?
The bankruptcy is a result of the Unions failing to negotiate a settlement regarding the pensions. The emergency manager attempted to negotiate with them in order to make sure they got "something" but union bosses stomped their feet, stuck fingers in their ears, and said no.
 

Deuce

Outer space potato man
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
75,681
Reaction score
33,254
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
The bankruptcy is a result of the Unions failing to negotiate a settlement regarding the pensions. The emergency manager attempted to negotiate with them in order to make sure they got "something" but union bosses stomped their feet, stuck fingers in their ears, and said no.
No, the bankruptcy is a result of major economic and social shifts occurring over a period of several decades.
 

haymarket

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
120,934
Reaction score
28,509
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
It doesn't matter whether they are included or not. There's no money to pay them. An orderly bankruptcy is more their favor than the chaos that will result without one.

Eventually you run out of other people's money.
Those pensions are paid on a monthly basis. How does one claim that they will have no money to make their December 2018 payment or their July 2021 payment or their January 2024 payment?
 

haymarket

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
120,934
Reaction score
28,509
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
don't we owe the people who worked all their life, a pension? or do we give them a iou?
A free subscription to the Lew Rockwell newsletter and a chance to take classes at the prestigious Von Mises Institute would seem to be the ticket.
 

mac

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 13, 2010
Messages
22,499
Reaction score
4,266
Location
DC Metro
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
No, the bankruptcy is a result of major economic and social shifts occurring over a period of several decades.
Bankrupt in the sense that they have no money. The legal process is a result of the Unions refusing to negotiate, and you forgot to throw in "Democrat mismanagement and outright fraud in some cases."
 

shrubnose

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
19,463
Reaction score
8,731
Location
Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
don't we owe the people who worked all their life, a pension? or do we give them a iou?



That's basically what the US government gave the Social Security Administration when congress folded all of the Social Security cash in with all of the other US assets and spent it on fighting wars and etc.

Of course the old folks might get their pensions eventually if the USA doesn't file for bankruptcy.
 

MaggieD

Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
43,244
Reaction score
44,659
Location
Chicago Area
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Okay, I have a legitimate question. Detroit's $327,000,000 in the hole, resulting in their filing bankruptcy.

There are 706,585 people living in Detroit.

That's $463.00 per person.

That's completely undoable? A special assessment of sorts?

Another question: Are policemen, firemen, paramedics, teachers and all other Detroit public workers required to live in the city? If not? They should be. Chicago, Illinois has that requirement. It's the only thing that keeps the city alive.

Anyone have answers?

Edit: Wait!!! The $327 million is their deficit. Their debt is $18.4 billion. Holy crap. That's a different horse: that's $26,000 per resident.

Never mind.
 
Last edited:

MaggieD

Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
43,244
Reaction score
44,659
Location
Chicago Area
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
don't we owe the people who worked all their life, a pension? or do we give them a iou?
I worked all my life and don't have a pension. In fact, 7 of 10 private sector workers have no pension. Perhaps the union workers would like Detroit to squeeze blood out of a turnip??

Here's what I think ought to happen: Each worker should get back every dime they've paid into their retirement program -- compounded at a certain %. Then, the City of Detroit should be forced to contribute both sides of Social Security and Medicare Taxes on their workers' behalf. (Paying both sides as a penalty for being assholes.)***

This would put these public sector workers on the same footing that 70% of the private sector finds itself. After that? If they don't like the new arrangement? They can look for other jobs.

***Orrrrrrr, the whole mess is turned over to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (the U.S. government) and they pay out according to their formula -- just like the rest of the world.

*Maggie dusts off her hands and pours herself a glass of wine*
 

Dr. Chuckles

King Conspiratard
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 11, 2011
Messages
12,895
Reaction score
2,909
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
One of the attorney's at our office used to work at a firm that had a lot of municipalities as clients and a few that went through bankruptcy proceedings. He claimed that this is more prone to occur at lower courts in states where Judges have closer ties to their communities and have less over-sight. It's rare for a city or town to actually have it's filings permanently blocked, and if you make it to the State Supreme Courts they almost always back the right of the city and state governments to proceed even if it is with caveats.

This Judge in particular seems to be grandstanding: "Aquilina, a Democrat appointee, also ordered that a copy of her order be sent all the way to the White House, saying that President Obama "bailed out Detroit" and might want to take a closer look, reports the Free Press." (Detroit Bankruptcy Filing Unconstitutional, Must Be Withdrawn, Judge Orders)
Sherm-dog, I just wanted to say I think you're a great asset t this forum.
 
Top Bottom