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Joseph McCarthy - right or wrong?

Was Joseph McCarthy right about Soviet infiltration and communists in the US federal government?

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 19.6%
  • No

    Votes: 45 80.4%

  • Total voters
    56
  • Poll closed .
Which majority? The middle class? White people? People living in urban areas? People who are pro choice? Christians? People under 40? People who accept that climate change is real? People who voted for Biden? Those who are monolingual?

There are a lot of ways to slice that pie.

Take your pick. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

Constitutional protections are supposed to be a solution to this problem. If we are going to have constitutional protections for the rights of minorities, then we shouldn't toss those protections aside the moment a politician decides to make a bogeyman out of them.
 
Take your pick. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

Constitutional protections are supposed to be a solution to this problem. If we are going to have constitutional protections for the rights of minorities, then we shouldn't toss those protections aside the moment a politician decides to make a bogeyman out of them.
I completely agree. But now I'm confused but I thought that earlier you argued for outlawing the GOP. Am I misremembering?
 
I completely agree. But now I'm confused but I thought that earlier you argued for outlawing the GOP. Am I misremembering?

It was a conditional devil's advocate argument.

The Communist Party of the United States was criminalized by the Communist Control Act of 1954. My argument was that whether the people McCarthy accused were 'innocent' of being Communists or not shouldn't even matter. American citizens shouldn't have been criminalized for their political views to begin with.

If outlawing the Communist Party of the United States was justified because Communists were such a scary bogeyman, then outlawing the Republican party can also be justified if the majority sees Republicans as a scary bogeyman.

As I mentioned earlier:

I am firmly on the side that neither the Republican Party, nor the Communist Party should be illegal in the land of the free.
 
Strange how you guys defend people who were complicit in killing 70 million people.

And condemn people who worked to expose their crimes.

You show yourselves to be just as despicable as the monsters you're defending.

McCarthy happily defended SS thugs who slaughtered American POWs.
 
Times have changed. The Commies have a different strategy these days. Many of their "useful idiots" don't even realize they're being used.
Drumpf I'm sure feels he's using Pooten.
 
It was a conditional devil's advocate argument.

The Communist Party of the United States was criminalized by the Communist Control Act of 1954. My argument was that whether the people McCarthy accused were 'innocent' of being Communists or not shouldn't even matter. American citizens shouldn't have been criminalized for their political views to begin with.

If outlawing the Communist Party of the United States was justified because Communists were such a scary bogeyman, then outlawing the Republican party can also be justified if the majority sees Republicans as a scary bogeyman.

As I mentioned earlier:
Your argument was clear enough, IMO.
 
There certainly was every reason to be worried about Soviet spying in that day, but McCarthy's tactics were, ironically, KGB-like. In the defense of one's nation its a bad idea to throw away that nation's ideals.
 
For ****'s sake NO. Learn some history. The Soviets did gin up a pretty decent Cold War espionage effort in the US, but it was much later than when McCarthy was railing about it. The 80s were the highlight, right before the collapse of the Soviet Union.

You have to understand the context of McCarthy's comments. They arose out of Maos' victory in China in 1949. There was this great feeling of "who lost China?" in the US, as Americans had felt close to and supportive of the Republic of China since its early days, and through the war against Japan. The communist victory there created a shock in the American public and on Capitol Hill. McCarthy's rhetoric led in part to purges at the State Department, which gutted the East Asia section. The loss of institutional and regional knowledge directly and negatively affected the ability of the US government to navigate the crisis in Indochina just a decade later.

This is all well documented and explained in many good books; I recommend Halberstam's, The Best and the Brightest.
Would it make sense to learn some history about, say, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg?
 
The KGB's infiltration campaign in America in the 1950s was much more successful than its modern successor's meddling in the 2016 presidential election. Joseph McCarthy absolutely did the right thing to stop Soviet infiltration in the government and academic institutions.

You can have the write objective and the wrong plan to get there. That was McCarthy.
 
You can have the write objective and the wrong plan to get there. That was McCarthy.

His objective was no nobler than his plan was. Being a Communist should never have been a crime.

Espionage was already a crime. People who were guilty of espionage should have been tried and convicted of espionage, not Communism.
 
His objective was no nobler than his plan was. Being a Communist should never have been a crime.

Espionage was already a crime. People who were guilty of espionage should have been tried and convicted of espionage, not Communism.
Yes, it should never be illegal to be Communist, but let me be clear. At the time I believe there were communists working in or with the federal government that were sympathetic to the Soviet cause and were willing to work (or had worked) on behalf on Soviet interests. McCarthy's tactics were one thing. The risk we faced from Soviet spying another. One should not conflate the two.
 
Most of the people who were ruined or smeared by HUAC and McCarthy, if they had ever been communist at all, had been that way many years earlier. And indeed, during WWII, they were our ally.
 
Times have changed. The Commies have a different strategy these days. Many of their "useful idiots" don't even realize they're being used.


Sure, it's all well and good to support dental care for old folks, but the next thing you know, there imposing five-year agricultural plans.
 
Most of the people who were ruined or smeared by HUAC and McCarthy, if they had ever been communist at all, had been that way many years earlier. And indeed, during WWII, they were our ally.
In the US in the 1920s & 1930s - yes, the Depression & the Dustbowl wrecked a lot of lives & plans.

During WWII - the USSR never got over the Allied invasion of E. Europe/USSR after WWI. Given the viciousness of the civil war there, the pogroms against the Jews, the various & widespread political & class vendettas that were practiced throughout Russia, the USSR, & E. Europe - the Soviets were never going to be reliable allies to the West.

Indeed, the Soviets made a separate peace with Nazi Germany & carved up Poland between them - thus precipitating WWII - @ least as far as the European West was concerned. As pariah states, the USSR & post-WWI Germany traded a lot, & the Soviets leased military storage space & training space (for the airplanes, ships, tanks & etc. that were forbidden to Germany by treaty). & the Soviets sold metals, ore, food - anything that they could - to the Nazis (the USSR was cut off from a lot of the World economy, & was badly in need of hard currency - to buy the inputs & industrial equipment & expertise needed to catapult the USSR into the 20th century.)

From the Western invasion of the USSR (in 1918?), I don't think Stalin (in particular) was ever our (the West's) ally. Stalin was fighting for his survival once Hitler invaded the USSR - & I'm sure that the Nazis had ugly plans for the existing Soviet population, if they had managed to actually win the war.
 
McCarthy was a bomb thrower. Like Trump, he would throw out one crazy conspiracy theory and before it could be checked out and refuted, he'd toss out another one.
True, communists were to McCarthy what immigrants were to Trump. Demagogues have always needed damagogue-ees.
 
You are greatly confused.

Joseph McCarthy was a Senator. If you don't know the difference between the US Senate and the US House, then now would be a good time to learn.

It was the House Un-American Activities Committee, not the Senate Un-American Activities Committee.

Yes, McCarthy was right and HUAC proves it, but not in the way that you think.

McCarthy was about to expose and out dozens if not 100s of Soviet spies. The purpose of HUAC was classic Psy-Ops Warfare and its goal was to deflect and misdirect McCarthy's investigation by attacking Hollywood film and TV producers, directors and actors. Roy Cohn turned it into a 3-ring circus for that reason.

Washington DC is on the East Coast. Hollywood is on the West Coast. That was the 1950s, not the 2000s with satellite TV trucks. All the TV and newspaper reporters pack up and head out of DC to Hollywood on the West Coast to stalk and interview the Hollywood people accused by HUAC.

The purpose of attacking Hollywood film and TV producers, directors and actors was to sufficiently irk Americans to get them to demand an end to the investigations.

It worked.

From Soviet records released after the so-called fall of the Soviet Union, we know a few things:

1) The Rosenberg spy-ring was much more extensive than Americans were led to believe. It wasn't just a half-dozen Soviet spies, there were more than 100.
2) Ethel and Julius Rosenberg really were Soviet spies.
3) There really was a spy in General Marshal's office as McCarthy claimed, although the identity of that person is still protected. It's widely believed it was Marshal's secretary.
4) As McCarthy claimed, there were Soviet spy-rings operating in the Pentagon, the State Department and the Justice Department. Additionally, there were several smaller spy-rings associated with universities that worked with the Jet Propulsion Labs and Lawrence Livermore Labs (both were responsible for the development of nuclear weapons systems and other military weapons and aircraft programs) that McCarthy was not aware of.
5) Another spy-ring worked Capitol Hill.
Really? The House of Representatives organized a HUAC plot to go after Hollywood to distract from the real work done by McCarthy? How did we not transform into a Soviet state within a year of McCarthy’s censure given that reds were in every public institution? And you forgot to mention the millions of left-handed people in the country.
 
The U.S. Senate votes 65 to 22 to condemn Senator Joseph R. McCarthy for conduct unbecoming of a senator.

From wiki:
Joseph Nye Welch (October 22, 1890 – October 6, 1960) was an American lawyer and actor who served as the chief counsel for the United States Army while it was under investigation for Communist activities by Senator Joseph McCarthy's Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, an investigation known as the Army–McCarthy hearings. His confrontation with McCarthy during the hearings, in which he famously asked McCarthy "At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" is seen as a turning point in the history of McCarthyism.

McCarthy believed that he was right, but he wasn't.
And the reason for Welch’s historic gutting of Joe was that the latter had brought up one of his staff being connected to the National Lawyers Guild, a progressive organization that is still around helping poor folks, immigrants, etc. Welch was aghast at McCarthy’s action.
 
And the reason for Welch’s historic gutting of Joe was that the latter had brought up one of his staff being connected to the National Lawyers Guild, a progressive organization that is still around helping poor folks, immigrants, etc. Welch was aghast at McCarthy’s action.

This was a staff member who was not even part of the defense team, as we learn his Welch's brilliant soliloquy.
 
Margaret Chase Smith the Republican senator from Maine, made a great condemnation of McCarthy. A more modern version from Senator Collins never came...
 
Guilty of what?
Nixon masterminded the break in at the Democratic Campaign offices & Danial Elysburg's psychiatrists office.
Agnew for taking cash payoffs from contractors in Maryland as Gov. & in the White House.
 
Strange how you guys defend people who were complicit in killing 70 million people.

And condemn people who worked to expose their crimes.

You show yourselves to be just as despicable as the monsters you're defending.
Communism didn’t kill 70 million people, and more than fascism killed six million Jews. It was evil actors who happened to use questionable ideologies as excuses for their murderous hatreds.
 
His objective was no nobler than his plan was. Being a Communist should never have been a crime.

Espionage was already a crime. People who were guilty of espionage should have been tried and convicted of espionage, not Communism.

Yes, it should never be illegal to be Communist, but let me be clear. At the time I believe there were communists working in or with the federal government that were sympathetic to the Soviet cause and were willing to work (or had worked) on behalf on Soviet interests. McCarthy's tactics were one thing. The risk we faced from Soviet spying another. One should not conflate the two.
What you guys are missing is that "communism", in terms of being seditious internally, and an overall threat externally, is only a microcosm of the larger threat.

The way to look at communism is to view it as a lone department within a much larger corporation.

Communism, has always been supported by the world's central bankers. For them, it is a tool, a means to an end.

Everyone knows about Lenin and The Sealed Train, but that was just start up money. As with everything related to politics - the game is always about money and power.

Once the central bankers succeeded in gaining control of the U.S. money supply, the next objective was total power.

They have a multitude of weapons at their disposal to finally achieve total global power. War, terrorism, economic booms and busts, ideological subversion, propaganda, indoctrination, etc... Communism is a necessary and valued tool for them.

That "communism" should or shouldn't be illegal misses the big picture. When American Patriots and true defenders of liberty (like McCarthy) began to investigate "communism" in our midst, it was the Reece Committee findings that represented the real threat to the money power behind the whole conspiracy.

Communism is just a piece of a much larger puzzle.
 
Was Joseph McCarthy right about Soviet infiltration and communists in the US federal government?

Although I don't necessarily agree with Joseph McCarthy's approach & tactics in dealing with the problem, I have to wonder if he was right about its existence.

Cohn and his law partner, Thomas A. Bolan, were both disbarred. G. David Schine was the owner and G.M. of the Los Angeles
hotel in June, 1968, where RFK was shot in the pantry. Schine's parents and the parents of Jack Ruby's roommate and that roommate are all buried in this small cemetery,


Roy Cohn's client, Harry Weinberg, in 1963 owned the Dallas transit company that Lee Harvey Oswald allegedly took his "getaway bus" ride.
According to the FBI report displayed in the post at the link below, the client's brothers were treated as V.I.P.s by Jack Ruby.


Roy Cohn Sued for $7 Million - The Washington Post​

https://www.washingtonpost.com › politics › 1986/04/04
Apr 4, 1986 — Civil complaints filed here and in Connecticut also named Thomas A. Bolan, Cohn's law partner and President Reagan's New York finance chairman...

The Closing Arguments of Roy Cohn - The Washington Post​

https://www.washingtonpost.com › lifestyle › 1985/12/21
Dec 21, 1985 — (Bobby) Kennedy soon resigned, then resurfaced on the committee as minority counsel to the Democrats. Cohn once lunged at Kennedy outside a hearing room ...

Roy Cohn's Descent on the Libraries of Europe - The New ...​

https://www.nytimes.com › 1986/08/17 › opinion › l-roy-...
Aug 17, 1986 — Cohn and Mr. Schine were stopped by a reporter who read them the reference to ''junketeering gumshoes,'' which had just come over the wires.

  • Crash Kills G. David Schine, 69, McCarthy-Era Figure​

    https://www.nytimes.com › 1996/06/21 › crash-kills-g-da...
    Jun 21, 1996 — Cohn! Absolutely, Mr. Schine!" But they spread fear through embassies and consulates, and some officials lost their jobs because the Cohn-Schine ...

    Schine Found Respect After Past Scandal - Los Angeles Times​

    https://www.latimes.com › archives › la-xpm-1996-06-...
Jun 21, 1996 — “Out of the famous three [including McCarthy and Roy Cohn] at ... Schine Inns hotel chain, and also ran the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles.

Master Players in a Fixed Game: An Extra-Literary History of ...​

https://books.google.com › books
Ralph D. Story · 2001 · ‎Education
64 Also in 1953, McCarthy's investigators, Roy Cohn and David Schine, created a stir abroad while investigating the embassy libraries on a “personal” ...

Roy Cohn Is Disbarred By New York Court - The Washington ...​

https://www.washingtonpost.com › politics › 1986/06/24
Jun 24, 1986 — Roy M. Cohn, the flamboyant lawyer who became famous as the communist-hunting counsel for Sen. Joseph R. McCarthy's committee in the 1950s, ...

United States v. Fred C. Trump, Donald Trump, and Trump ...​

https://www.clearinghouse.net › detail
Source: U.S. Dep't of Justice, Civil Rights Division, Housing and Civil ... of the United States in Response to the Affidavits of Donald Trump and Roy Cohn.
 
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