John Oliver on Transgender Females in Women's Sports (2 Viewers)

[maxparrish]

I just watched the entire 42 minute segment. I'll give you the cliff notes version. Please note: It is worth your time. My posts will not be as detailed as John Oliver.

Oliver's Main Points: ... snipped for brevity

It always amazes me when people's desire to believe something so strongly that it completely overpowers their ability to think; what I characterize as the difference between a person's tested and abstract IQ and their working or functional IQ. In some folks that difference isn't great, in others it is shockingly vast, usually because their "emotionally subjective" brain is repeatedly making immaterial or misleading judgements, busy throwing up denial memes to protect them from seeing the obvious.

Most of the cited points made by Oliver are entirely irrelevant as to whether or not transgender "women" have an unfair advantage over biological women in competitive sports. Hence, why men chose to adopt a female persona (trans women) is immaterial; LIa Thomas's record is immaterial; what you allege to be Riley Gaines motives is immaterial. That Payton McNabb made a recovery from a severe concussion caused by a transwoman athlete is immaterial. That some alleged complaint is allegedly wrong is immaterial. That there was some errant factoid over 800 medals, or that you think women's sport's is underfunded, or that the right's main motive is to deny transgenders right to exist is immaterial.
Nine of "Olivers" thirteen "Main Points" are red herrings; distractions over personalities, an incident or two, and completely irrelevant issues to the question of fairness.

Of the remainder, it would seem that the argument or point is: there are not that many transgender "women" in sports, that severe injuries happen all the time, that a trans woman has to dominate a sport in order for it to be unfair, that no trans woman has gotten a sports scholarship, that because scientific studies of transgender females in sports have a small sample size they feature unreliable data, and so you refuse to believe that trans women have an unfair advantage.

Of course, most of this are also straw men and red herrings: the question is not if severe injuries happen all the time, it is if severe injuries to other players are more likely from a trans female than a non-trans female. The question is not if a transwoman is or has dominated a sport (although at least one has) but if a transgender's participation can deny a woman a chance of placing, or qualifying for advancement, on any level of competitive sports.

So as much as Oliver (or you) might deny it, IT IS about fairness. And there are numerous medical studies and sports performance studies that substantiate that trans women do have an unfair advantage - so obvious that Oliver (or perhaps you) try to pretend it's about something else.

 

[Phys251]

It always amazes me when people's desire to believe something is so strong that it completely overpowers reasoning; what I characterize as the difference between a person's tested IQ and their working or functional IQ. In some folks that difference isn't great, in others it is shockingly vast, usually because their "emotionally subjective" brain is repeatedly making immaterial or misleading judgements, busy throwing up crap to protect them from seeing the obvious.

Most of the cited points made by Oliver are entirely irrelevant as to whether or not transgender "women" have an unfair advantage over biological women in competitive sports. Hence, why men chose to adopt a female persona (trans women) is immaterial; LIa Thomas's record is immaterial; what you allege to be Riley Gaines motives is immaterial. That Payton McNabb made a recovery from a severe concussion caused by a transwoman athlete is immaterial. That some alleged complaint is allegedly wrong is immaterial. That there was some errant factoid over 800 medals, or that you think women's sport's is underfunded, or that the right's main motive is to deny transgenders right to exist is immaterial.
Nine of "Olivers" thirteen "Main Points" are red herrings; distractions over personalities, an incident or two, and completely irrelevant issues to the question of fairness.

"An incident or two" is exactly how frequently trans women participate in sports.

Of the remainder, it would seem that the argument or point is: there are not that many transgender "women" in sports, that severe injuries happen all the time, that a trans woman has to dominate a sport in order for it to be unfair, that no trans woman has gotten a sports scholarship, that because scientific studies of transgender females in sports have a small sample size they feature unreliable data, and so you refuse to believe that trans women have an unfair advantage.

Of course, most of this are also straw men and red herrings: the question is not if severe injuries happen all the time, it is if severe injuries to other players are more likely from a trans female than a non-trans female. the question is not if a transwoman is or has dominated a sport (although one has) but if a transgender's participation can deny a woman a chance of placing, or qualifying, in a contest.

So as much as Oliver (or you) might deny it, IT IS about fairness. And there are numerous medical studies and sports performance studies that substantiate that - so obvious that Oliver (or perhaps you) tries to pretend it's about something else.

No?

 

[maxparrish]

"An incident or two" is exactly how frequently trans women participate in sports.

If those incidents are the only ones and they are winning, then the average trans woman is superior to biological females, most of whom don't win. Right?

 

[Phys251]

If those incidents are the only ones and they are winning, then the average trans woman is superior to biological females, most of whom don't win. Right?

As I have already said, I support the right of individual sporting bodies to determine gender lines. Trying to elevate this issue into a national issue is insane.

 

[maxparrish]

As I have already said, I support the right of individual sporting bodies to determine gender lines. Trying to elevate this issue into a national issue is insane.

No one is questioning the right of sporting bodies to regulate their sports. Whether or not it is an issue of social or cultural concern, is a different matter. And clearly, it is.

 

[Phys251]

No one is questioning the right of sporting bodies to regulate their sports.

Actually, blanket bans from the Genital Obsessed Party do precisely that.

Whether or not it is an issue of social or cultural concern, is a different matter. And clearly, it is.

It is being blown way out of proportion by a bunch of shill-screeching idiots.

 

[CLAX1911]

It always amazes me when people's desire to believe something so strongly that it completely overpowers their ability to think; what I characterize as the difference between a person's tested and abstract IQ and their working or functional IQ. In some folks that difference isn't great, in others it is shockingly vast, usually because their "emotionally subjective" brain is repeatedly making immaterial or misleading judgements, busy throwing up denial memes to protect them from seeing the obvious.

Normally these cases where they buy in completely they have a family member or the writing staff are trans and this is viewed as allyship. Ether way it's very personal to Oliver or his writers

Most of the cited points made by Oliver are entirely irrelevant as to whether or not transgender "women" have an unfair advantage over biological women in competitive sports. Hence, why men chose to adopt a female persona (trans women) is immaterial; LIa Thomas's record is immaterial; what you allege to be Riley Gaines motives is immaterial. That Payton McNabb made a recovery from a severe concussion caused by a transwoman athlete is immaterial. That some alleged complaint is allegedly wrong is immaterial. That there was some errant factoid over 800 medals, or that you think women's sport's is underfunded, or that the right's main motive is to deny transgenders right to exist is immaterial.
Nine of "Olivers" thirteen "Main Points" are red herrings; distractions over personalities, an incident or two, and completely irrelevant issues to the question of fairness.

The one where they claim the critics don't want them to exist I always see as manipulation. Nobody is saying a man that identifies as a woman doesn't exist or that such a person doesn't identify as a woman. They are just saying they aren't a woman.

But much of Oliver's arguments are red herrings, distractions. It's never really to make a valid argument it's too induce agreement.

Of the remainder, it would seem that the argument or point is: there are not that many transgender "women" in sports, that severe injuries happen all the time, that a trans woman has to dominate a sport in order for it to be unfair, that no trans woman has gotten a sports scholarship, that because scientific studies of transgender females in sports have a small sample size they feature unreliable data, and so you refuse to believe that trans women have an unfair advantage.

Of course, most of this are also straw men and red herrings: the question is not if severe injuries happen all the time, it is if severe injuries to other players are more likely from a trans female than a non-trans female. The question is not if a transwoman is or has dominated a sport (although at least one has) but if a transgender's participation can deny a woman a chance of placing, or qualifying for advancement, on any level of competitive sports.

Yeah I wouldn't really see it as an argument if they came in last place the fact that it is for women and nobody ever means gender identity when they say that (because they say transwoman when they are talking about gender identity) it necessarily excludes all people that are not the female sex.

So as much as Oliver (or you) might deny it, IT IS about fairness. And there are numerous medical studies and sports performance studies that substantiate that trans women do have an unfair advantage - so obvious that Oliver (or perhaps you) try to pretend it's about something else.

It's ridiculous to me to even question this. If women and men who identify as women were the same they'd just play in the leagues that have no mention of sex sometimes mistakenly referred to as the men's league. There would have never been the need for women's leagues or title IX

 

[CLAX1911]

As I have already said, I support the right of individual sporting bodies to determine gender lines. Trying to elevate this issue into a national issue is insane.

So if these leagues and various private women's gyms all excluded men who identify as women you wouldn't criticize them? Would you take issue with people that do?

 

[Juin]

You cannot really create their own category. Most states have between 0 to 5 transgender athletes total. The President of the NCAA says there are about 500k student athletes and less than 10 of them are transgender.

Allowing 10 Mike Tysons to compete in bantam weight is unfair. Even if you have 10 Mike Tysons against 500k bantam weights

A better argument would be about more co-ed sports leagues.

How does that satisfy the trans woman? The trans woman doesn't want to be with men

 

[Juin]

Yep. We want to be respectful to both sides of the coin. Oliver himself endorsed restrictions and compromise in his piece. A third category would make a lot of sense because we have non-binary, intersex, and transgender people who cannot fulfill the hormonal requirement. You also have people who failed to make the men's and women's team and still want to play competitive basketball, softball, and so forth. That's an idea we should float around. The issue itself as @SNOWFLAKE and others have pointed out, has become too political.

So you posit a men, women and co ed categories. What is your answer to a transgender woman who wants to compete in the female category? Force them to compete in co ed?

 

[Juin]

Mostly because one third of Americans are morons with no knowledge of science beyond elementary school, and are religious busybodies who reject logic. We refer to them as MAGAs.

Transism is more witchcraft than science

 

[CLAX1911]

Interesting. Maybe the great compromise would be to divide based on weight class, height (basketball), or group based on common results.

Men would dominate it in fact there are no men's sports. There is no mnba as I know of there is no rule that a woman can't compete. So what this is is the open category. You have the open category and women's teams. If you're outmatched for women by for example being born male you play in the open category it's not the men's team.

My apologies for the delay. I did not see your response.

 

[BrotherFease]

So you posit a men, women and co ed categories. What is your answer to a transgender woman who wants to compete in the female category? Force them to compete in co ed?

Co-Ed or the male category.

The thing here is, there is already a barrier to enter for a transgender woman to compete in female categories: Hormonal levels. If do not have gender dysphoria and/or not prescribed estrogen, you cannot compete on the female side.

 

[BrotherFease]

Allowing 10 Mike Tysons to compete in bantam weight is unfair. Even if you have 10 Mike Tysons against 500k bantam weights

I do not see your argument. How is it unfair? You're assuming that these people are all generational talents.

Lia Thomas for example is the ONLY transgender person (out) to win a NCAA title.

These less than 10 athletes are not all transgender women. You also have transgender men competing in men sports.

The evidence is pretty clear to me: The transgender advantage is being overblown. The Right has to rely on lying and deception to make their points. Just look at Trump's attack against the transgender woman who won the Arizona Trail competition.

 

[BrotherFease]

So as much as Oliver (or you) might deny it, IT IS about fairness. And there are numerous medical studies and sports performance studies that substantiate that trans women do have an unfair advantage - so obvious that Oliver (or perhaps you) try to pretend it's about something else.

I do not think it is really about fairness. When one side has to exaggerate, mislead, and lie to their audience, something is deeply wrong with the argument. Just look at the recent example of Trump's attack against a transgender woman winning the Arizona Trail race. He left out the fact it was a co-ed competition and her record was broken by a genetic male who was not transgender.

You used the word "unfair". Nobody is going to argue that transgender women do not have advantages in female sports. But on the flip side, they have disadvantages too. More over, there are people, like Michael Phelps or Josh Allen, who have biological advantages. The thing about sports is, it's not meant to be even. Biology plays a major role. Body types can vary from person-to-person. A woman can be stronger, faster than a man.

 

[Lisa]

Transism is more witchcraft than science

1.) There is no such thing as transism.

2.) Witchcraft doesn't exist. Not even Wicca pagans take part in witchcraft.


What is it about transgender people that warps your brain? Is it the psychology of the idea that what looks like a male is actually a female because of their incongruent gender identity? Is it the medical treatment process that you dont understand?

 

[Juin]

1.) There is no such thing as transism.

Marissa Rothenberger is a severe case

2.) Witchcraft doesn't exist. Not even Wicca pagans take part in witchcraft.

Transism is more voodoo than science. It's the 21st century resurrection of the science of alchemy, the quest for gold from base metals. Transism seeks to physically obtain a female from male.

What is it about transgender people that warps your brain? Is it the psychology of the idea that what looks like a male is actually a female because of their incongruent gender identity? Is it the medical treatment process that you dont understand?

It's a work in progress, it appears

 

[Lisa]

Marissa Rothenberger is a severe case

You do not know that because of HIPAA privacy rules.

Transism is more voodoo than science. It's the 21st century resurrection of the science of alchemy, the quest for gold from base metals. Transism seeks to physically obtain a female from male.

That is nonsense. You do not understand the psychology of human sexuality, so it looks like voodoo to you. https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/gender-dysphoria-dsm--5-302.85-(f64.9)

It's a work in progress, it appears

Its a decade or more work in progress plus a lifetime of continuing care for transgender teens.

 

[maquiscat]

2.) Witchcraft doesn't exist. Not even Wicca pagans take part in witchcraft.

Try again. Many pagans do classify their works and rituals as witchcraft, and dub themselves witches. My sister, husband and one wife all are Wiccans and label themselves as witches and their rituals as witchcraft, as do most of the local coven, and many Wiccans and other pagans that we know both online and in the region. Even if you are Wiccan yourself, you do not get to determine the labels for all.

 

[maquiscat]

Its a decade or more work in progress plus a lifetime of continuing care for transgender teens.

Longer since modern research predates WWII. There was a massive library and research center in Germany already performing successful surgeries prior to the Nazis burning it all down

 

[j brown's body]

It always amazes me when people's desire to believe something so strongly that it completely overpowers their ability to think; what I characterize as the difference between a person's tested and abstract IQ and their working or functional IQ. In some folks that difference isn't great, in others it is shockingly vast, usually because their "emotionally subjective" brain is repeatedly making immaterial or misleading judgements, busy throwing up denial memes to protect them from seeing the obvious.

Most of the cited points made by Oliver are entirely irrelevant as to whether or not transgender "women" have an unfair advantage over biological women in competitive sports. Hence, why men chose to adopt a female persona (trans women) is immaterial; LIa Thomas's record is immaterial; what you allege to be Riley Gaines motives is immaterial. That Payton McNabb made a recovery from a severe concussion caused by a transwoman athlete is immaterial. That some alleged complaint is allegedly wrong is immaterial. That there was some errant factoid over 800 medals, or that you think women's sport's is underfunded, or that the right's main motive is to deny transgenders right to exist is immaterial.
Nine of "Olivers" thirteen "Main Points" are red herrings; distractions over personalities, an incident or two, and completely irrelevant issues to the question of fairness.

Of the remainder, it would seem that the argument or point is: there are not that many transgender "women" in sports, that severe injuries happen all the time, that a trans woman has to dominate a sport in order for it to be unfair, that no trans woman has gotten a sports scholarship, that because scientific studies of transgender females in sports have a small sample size they feature unreliable data, and so you refuse to believe that trans women have an unfair advantage.

Of course, most of this are also straw men and red herrings: the question is not if severe injuries happen all the time, it is if severe injuries to other players are more likely from a trans female than a non-trans female. The question is not if a transwoman is or has dominated a sport (although at least one has) but if a transgender's participation can deny a woman a chance of placing, or qualifying for advancement, on any level of competitive sports.

So as much as Oliver (or you) might deny it, IT IS about fairness. And there are numerous medical studies and sports performance studies that substantiate that trans women do have an unfair advantage - so obvious that Oliver (or perhaps you) try to pretend it's about something else.

All competitions are loaded with unfair advantages.

To some degree, I think the issue rests on what sports are for.

We used to preach that "its not if you win or lose, its how you play the game."

The elevation of personal glory and money, such as in scholarships, has replaced the importance of sport as a character builder, as a socializing agent. That's one reason why its so tragic that trans kids be excluded. They are so desperate to fit in and their suicide rate is astronomical.

I think that loss of vision of the importance of sports has clouded the anti-trans vision of sports. And its convenient. People understand it easily.

 

[Lisa]

Longer since modern research predates WWII. There was a massive library and research center in Germany already performing successful surgeries prior to the Nazis burning it all down

I was referring to the treatment time for a trans teen.

The trans surgery prior to WW2 was very crude. It has improved greatly since Christine Jorgenson in 1950, and even Stanley Biber began doing surgery in 1969.

 

[maquiscat]

I was referring to the treatment time for a trans teen.

The trans surgery prior to WW2 was very crude. It has improved greatly since Christine Jorgenson in 1950, and even Stanley Biber began doing surgery in 1969.

Misread the context. I thought you were referring to the practice overall, not for a given teen.

 

[Lisa]

The best trans surgeon is Toby Metzler but he isn't taking many cases as he gets older. IIRC, He was the first to do FFS in the 1990s. .

Toby R Meltzer MD - The Meltzer Clinic PC %

Toby R Meltzer MD performs approximately 200 Gender Confirmation Surgery (GCS) cases per year.He performs both MtF and FtM genital reconstruction surgeries.

themeltzerclinic.com

 

[Lisa]

Try again. Many pagans do classify their works and rituals as witchcraft, and dub themselves witches. My sister, husband and one wife all are Wiccans and label themselves as witches and their rituals as witchcraft, as do most of the local coven, and many Wiccans and other pagans that we know both online and in the region. Even if you are Wiccan yourself, you do not get to determine the labels for all.

I am corrected. I was loosely involved with pagan religion in the late 1990s with a Druid grove. I still occasionally secularly observe the sabbats privately with candles and incense.